Saudi B777 take-off flap selection procedure
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Saudi B777 take-off flap selection procedure
I was doing the walk around in Manchester yesterday when a Saudi B777 taxied out with the flaps still up.
Knowing that the Boeing procedure is to select the flaps before starting to taxi, I went back to the cockpit to enquire if the aircraft was taxing for departure. SMC said that it was so I mentioned the flaps. The response from the aircraft was that there was a new procedure at Saudi & "they now select flaps approaching the runway".
Does anyone know if this really is the procedure at Saudi now?!!! My understanding is that Boeing changed from selecting the flaps during taxi (except in certain icing conditions) to the current procedure of selecting flaps before commencing to taxi, due to the number of occurrences of crews forgetting to set them! If they really are doing this, it could be an accident waiting to happen.
Or perhaps it was just a face saving exercise when their error was pointed out to them!
Knowing that the Boeing procedure is to select the flaps before starting to taxi, I went back to the cockpit to enquire if the aircraft was taxing for departure. SMC said that it was so I mentioned the flaps. The response from the aircraft was that there was a new procedure at Saudi & "they now select flaps approaching the runway".
Does anyone know if this really is the procedure at Saudi now?!!! My understanding is that Boeing changed from selecting the flaps during taxi (except in certain icing conditions) to the current procedure of selecting flaps before commencing to taxi, due to the number of occurrences of crews forgetting to set them! If they really are doing this, it could be an accident waiting to happen.
Or perhaps it was just a face saving exercise when their error was pointed out to them!
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and why do you care?!
Every airline has its own SOP's. Yes, Boeing comes up with a draft procedure, but again, airlines adapt these factory SOP's to theirs. They take into account previous history, scenarios, .. etc. So, go figure?
PS., Saudai Do not taxi with SE.
Every airline has its own SOP's. Yes, Boeing comes up with a draft procedure, but again, airlines adapt these factory SOP's to theirs. They take into account previous history, scenarios, .. etc. So, go figure?
PS., Saudai Do not taxi with SE.
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yep!
you can buy boeing but u don't have to use their procedures. although it seems more and more airlines are reverting to do so, maybe for insurance reasons?!
also saves the work of coming up wth own ones and getting them approved by some authority....
also saves the work of coming up wth own ones and getting them approved by some authority....
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Basic Airmanship. Well done for asking the question takingover.
It is never a silly question when it comes to flight safety. I'm not interested in Saudis SOPs, all I'm interested in is going home safe at night. Can we change the drift of this thread towards the flight safety aspect please.
It is never a silly question when it comes to flight safety. I'm not interested in Saudis SOPs, all I'm interested in is going home safe at night. Can we change the drift of this thread towards the flight safety aspect please.
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Maybe method to the madness
At several carriers, Big Boeings as a matter of clearing the ramp, or at least within the first 30 feet of initiating taxi drop the boards to take off setiings.
SOPS, at Northwest changed, when a 747 crew dropped the flaps on a vehicle, dont ask me how.
Sushi
SOPS, at Northwest changed, when a 747 crew dropped the flaps on a vehicle, dont ask me how.
Sushi
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Hi I fly the EQP the taxi checklist has been removed and the T/O flaps have been added to the before T/O checklist it work's great no problem as of yet, as per the company they say it is a procedure by Boeing ? I hope this answers your question.
Safe Flying To All
Safe Flying To All
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I'm flying the triple seven, though not for Saudi.
Our company adheres to Boeing procedures, which say that the T/O-flaps should be set before taxiing, unless the taxiways are contaminated with slush, in which case you should set them before entering the takeoff-runway.
In any case, the electronic checklist on the 777 includes the takeoff-flap setting and will not show "green" if the flaps aren't set accordingly.
Also, you would not be able to engage in TOGA-mode, and you would get the takeoff-config warning, if you tried to go anyway.
So whatever was the case (whether the pilots forgot to set the flaps or deliberately chose not to set them yet), this is not dangerous. There are several safety gates.
Our company adheres to Boeing procedures, which say that the T/O-flaps should be set before taxiing, unless the taxiways are contaminated with slush, in which case you should set them before entering the takeoff-runway.
In any case, the electronic checklist on the 777 includes the takeoff-flap setting and will not show "green" if the flaps aren't set accordingly.
Also, you would not be able to engage in TOGA-mode, and you would get the takeoff-config warning, if you tried to go anyway.
So whatever was the case (whether the pilots forgot to set the flaps or deliberately chose not to set them yet), this is not dangerous. There are several safety gates.
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Well done for asking the question takingover.
It is never a silly question when it comes to flight safety
It is never a silly question when it comes to flight safety
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Saw the same at DXB a couple of months ago. The crew of a Saudi 777 only set the flaps just prior to taxiing onto the runway before takeoff!!
Made me stop and look and to be honest I was a tadge concerned!
Made me stop and look and to be honest I was a tadge concerned!
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One word, Spannair.
whose to say whether someone could of saved them had they noticed no flaps, because the config warning certainly didn't.
When the Flybe Q400's entered service in the UK, I had to speak up because the chap had lined up and held on the runway with the spoilers sticking out ontop of wings. My mind was put at rest when told by the Flybe crew that the spoilers retract on application of take off power. Learn't something new.
whose to say whether someone could of saved them had they noticed no flaps, because the config warning certainly didn't.
When the Flybe Q400's entered service in the UK, I had to speak up because the chap had lined up and held on the runway with the spoilers sticking out ontop of wings. My mind was put at rest when told by the Flybe crew that the spoilers retract on application of take off power. Learn't something new.
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For those that wonder about SaudiArabian...the training there is very tough, and checklist procedures are very strict....so, don't get your knickers in a twist over something you might well know nothing about.
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Checklists have been forgotton in the past & it still happens today. The before take-off checklist in the 777 only has one item - flaps. If you forget the checklist due to distraction, there will not be much to remind you to do it.
As for the take-off config warning, well we all know how many times that has not worked for various reasons! I've done a take-off myself (in a 737) with it inop & only realised after TOC when the selcal chime didn't work. An engineer had pulled the 'aural warning' circuit breaker to do some ground checks & forgotton to push it back in. I missed it during the CB check as it was right next to the fire extingusher on the F/O's side & I hadn't stuck my head far enough over to get a clear line of sight on that row of breakers. Good lesson!!!
When I first started flying Boeings, some 20 years ago, we always selected the flaps during the taxi. However, Boeing started changing that a number of years ago on some of the fleet & have now standardised the procedure on all Boeing types, as far as I am aware. I'm sure that they had good reason to do so. I am aware of a couple of collegues who have started their take-off run with the flaps still up. One aborted & the other selected the flaps & continued the T/O, relying on them to reach the correct position before rotate.
There are a number of aspects of aircraft operation where the operator has the option of differing from the manufacturer's recomendations & this is probably one of them. Whether it is a wise decision or not, only time will tell. I do feel that it is an accident waiting to needlessly happen & I certainly don't believe that it is world's best practice.
As for the take-off config warning, well we all know how many times that has not worked for various reasons! I've done a take-off myself (in a 737) with it inop & only realised after TOC when the selcal chime didn't work. An engineer had pulled the 'aural warning' circuit breaker to do some ground checks & forgotton to push it back in. I missed it during the CB check as it was right next to the fire extingusher on the F/O's side & I hadn't stuck my head far enough over to get a clear line of sight on that row of breakers. Good lesson!!!
When I first started flying Boeings, some 20 years ago, we always selected the flaps during the taxi. However, Boeing started changing that a number of years ago on some of the fleet & have now standardised the procedure on all Boeing types, as far as I am aware. I'm sure that they had good reason to do so. I am aware of a couple of collegues who have started their take-off run with the flaps still up. One aborted & the other selected the flaps & continued the T/O, relying on them to reach the correct position before rotate.
There are a number of aspects of aircraft operation where the operator has the option of differing from the manufacturer's recomendations & this is probably one of them. Whether it is a wise decision or not, only time will tell. I do feel that it is an accident waiting to needlessly happen & I certainly don't believe that it is world's best practice.
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Saudi nonsense.
Sensible to deploy flaps/slats after start to detect any fault early. Not good to find the fault approaching the holding point of a busy place miles from stand and engineers. Simples.
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Just downloaded the B777 ECL dated June 2009 from myboeingfleet, Flaps are on the Before Takeoff Checklist...... in fact they are the only item on that checklist.
I can find no reference that this ECL is airline specific, therefore are you sure that other B777 operators arent doing the same thing?
Mutt
I can find no reference that this ECL is airline specific, therefore are you sure that other B777 operators arent doing the same thing?
Mutt
mutt,
Flaps is the only item on the Before Takeoff Checklist, but the SOP is to SELECT then prior to Taxi- They may still be running whilst the Before Taxi Checklist is actioned.
Flaps is the only item on the Before Takeoff Checklist, but the SOP is to SELECT then prior to Taxi- They may still be running whilst the Before Taxi Checklist is actioned.
