EK Command upgrade and fleet transfer policy FCI 2009-046

[CheikhUR6]

worth it ?

Hi all
Does F/O joining EK at this time worth it ?
how long for LHS with new rules? what"s EK DEC policy for years coming ?
Can you live with 3000$/months ( loan ) in Dubai ?

[CAVnotOK]

Read the entire thread........ the answers are there in clear print. Good Luck.

You can survive, but don't come for a command.

[pool]

FSM

read all presented arguments with correct tenses, not randomly through them.
Unless you want to prove my above point -> QED.

[Flying Spag Monster]

Pool I don't have an issue with your other presented arguments, regardless of the tense. It is with the inclusion at the end of a previous post regarding the JNB and MEL crews, or more specifically the experience source of the captains involved. I will observe you attributed these original comments to other posters, but the fact that you saw fit to repeat them and indeed offer them as "food for thought" indicated you believed there was some rational conclusion to be drawn from them. Otherwise why post it at all? There is nothing to be concluded from that statement, it is random and speculative at the extreme and speaks more about the poster than the targeted subjects.

[whine - red]

3000 hrs EK I understand - but are they saying that 1000 elsewhere are more beneficial?

[5star]

pool

I'm afraid you opened a can of worms with your last comment.
There a lot more examples where not-so-home-grown DEC's where involved.

[captainsmiffy]

Bloody hell! Just done the maths! Despite 10 years in command in my previous job (MTOW 21000kg) and 10600 hours under my belt, I only have 1000 'hard-time' hours and thus need ANOTHER 3000 hours at EK before command. At my present rate of flying that is nearly 6 years still to go! That is 8 years in EK as an F/O from what was purported at interview to be 3 years!! That is going to be a lot of KHIs and BLRs and DOHs!!!

Stunned! So a cadet starting tomorrow will be in as good a shape as me in 6 years - in effect my experience now laid to waste?! Am I still considered to be at the stage where they are concerned over the mass of the aircraft where I am concerned? Are my skills that dodgy?! (If you recognise me, don't answer that one!)

[Mister Warning]

That's before you factor in the inevitable DEC's and the one year of no deliveries and and and....

[Orangewing]

No maths required, smiffy. The way I see it, even if you have 10,000 hrs on a type above the magic 51t prior to joining ek you still have to do the 3000hrs within the company no matter how many "hard" hours you have prior.
Which means a lot of night turnarounds and as little augmenting as possible..... As you say, not exactly what I was promised at interview either

[McGreaser]

This is baffling to say the least ! So why the 4k hr (with tonnage restrictions) requirement on joining when down the line it means diddly squat in your career advancement ? Then suffice to say the turbo prop lads should also be recruited coz everybody will have to do another 3k on hrs on EK type before they are considered legible for command.

Does this also mean, am pretty sure by the new requirements more than half the guys who got their upgrade in EK would be unqualified to captain EK planes since they didn't have the 3k hrs on EK prior to upgrade

Also why train FO's to seat on LHS for augmenting (if they are considered too green by the new requirements)

............am l asking too many questions ?

Am sure many FO's have valuable experience which is being tossed into the wind be it CRJ, RJ, ex boeing or ex airbus or whatever metallic contraption one flew before joining EK

[sanddude]

30 upgrades on the bus this financial year. Looks like, that from the next 30 guys on the seniority list ,about 10 to 15 don,t have the hours!

so what now?. Me guess this is the same on the Boring.

Have they already started the recruitment of DEC?. How are the supossed to fill the seats?

Then again, DEC needs time on EK type as well. Don,t think there are many typed guys around who are interested. Not even the yanks, since it looks like the market is gonna pick up soon over there

[Overtimer997]

Where did you get that information from A380-800Driver?? It is not written down anywhere??

[Flying Spag Monster]

McGreaser you are not asking too many questions you are asking the correct ones. I still believe this came from high and suggest to anyone that is affected like you are to write to AS about it. Make a point of how it totally negates any previous experience, the very experience that got you the job in the first place. Management love data, if you can show them the facts it may help them with their arguement up the chain. (Assuming they are argueing of course)

[Overtimer997]

I hope your right but I doubt that it is the case.

[Aircav]

A380 Dude, you are being selectively optimistic.

Read the whole thing again:

3.5.3.4 Upgrade policy for A380 First Officers [E]
◊
Eligible A380 first officers will be considered for upgraded on the Airbus Fleet (A330) aircraft provided the following requirements are met:
��
The Eligibility requirements as per FOM 3.5.3.
��
Minimum 6000 hours total time.
��
Minimum 4000 hours Hard Time.
��
Possession of a valid UAE ATPL.
��
Minimum of 2 years (4 years for direct entry First Officer) from the date of successful completion of initial PPC on the A380 and a total of 6,000 hrs before transfer to the A330 on the Right Hand Seat.
��
Minimum of three months experience after the PPC as an A330 First Officer before upgrade course commencement date on the A330


So yup you do need the 4000hrs, anyway you have to do 2 years in EK min, with some hours requirements, on another fleet before you can even go to the A380 as an FO, then another 2 years on it before even being considered for upgrade IF you have the hours.

Some people are reading EK type to mean in EK, my interpretation is that it means B777, A330/A340 time anywhere. See DEC requirements number 3. Anyone have a counter argument?

Keep Discovering

[Overtimer997]

I agree.
Here is a thought. Seeing as the 380 is super heavy maybe the 380F/O's should get a double credit for their hrs on it toward upgrade?? Make any sense?? Like everything here it does not but what the heck maybe they will buy into it!!!

[CAVnotOK]

Aircav,

I believe you have it 100% correct.
Pretty hard to dispute something written in plain English. However, there have been isolated cases of people having trouble understanding plain English in EK.

Open for interpretation!

[5star]

For once I think their' FCI is comprehensive and quite clear.

Did not find any lapses or info missing. The only real surprise is the hard requirement which might affect some FO's. However if the economy stays flat, it will not matter anyway as there will be no upgrade slots in FY 10-11. If we go up, then I expect them to go for massive DECs.

For FO's on the 380 : they need the 4000 hours hard time as well as mentioned before and it's perfectly ok if you had some of these hours BEFORE joining. The rest of the normal upgrade requirements will be fullfilled automatically I think (eg. >3 years in the company before upgrading).


The question is: How long will it take before TCAS screws his own policy by employing DECs without the necessary requirements?
Well... read the first paragrah of the FCI again. Did your opinion ever matter over here?

[5star]

380 driver

Hmm...You should know the company by now. Everything is a puzzle and for you the mission is to find ALL the pieces. The point E in the table refers nicely back to 3.5.3.4 of the FCI.

If YOU are affected and don't believe it, better find out quickly. From my experience things NEVER work in your favor over here in case of doubt.

[Schnowzer]

If you join EK today you'll have 1000+ F/Os ahead of you. Recruitment has slowed and productivity has increased so maybe you'll end up with 800+ hrs/year. To meet the 3000hr requirement will take 3 1/2 years or so. I can't see us taking the 1000 pilots required in the next 5 years to have the hours timetable match the promotion slot. Bottom line is that EK is becoming a maturer airline, the economic situation is crap and although EK are getting extra aircraft right now it won't continue at the advertised order rate otherwise the company will go bust. My guess is that a few will be disadvantaged upfront but that 3000/4000hrs hard time will be only a small component of the wait to command just like everywhere else.

Now I might be wrong but I cannot see us averaging 330 pilots/year for the next 3 years particularly when we are getting only 50 or so this year.