EK Command upgrade and fleet transfer policy FCI 2009-046
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FCI = F*%K the CREW INITIATIVE.
Look on the brightside, I'll be upgrading just in time to walk with all of my whooping provident fund.
Look on the brightside, I'll be upgrading just in time to walk with all of my whooping provident fund.
Last edited by Instant Hooligan; 15th Jun 2009 at 23:44. Reason: spelling
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Chill guys - not the time to be bickering.
Shake hands & move on. If you ardently feel the need to unload or snipe do it by PM please.
4HP
Shake hands & move on. If you ardently feel the need to unload or snipe do it by PM please.
4HP
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Another theory as to the new policy??
As well as the DEC angle, it would not surprise me if this policy was introduced to stop FO's calling sick....Now that productivity only kicks in at 93ish hours, why would anybody go to work to do a BOM night return with 85hrs on the clock for the month when you're tired...for only a few hundred AED. (Do so these days and you risk your job if you make a small error).
So..with the inevitable increase in "push button 2" modus operandi..what better way to push the FO's into turning up than forcing them to work harder for their command. Would certainly be a difference of quite a few months between someone doing 90hrs/month versus someone doing 75hrs a month.
So..with the inevitable increase in "push button 2" modus operandi..what better way to push the FO's into turning up than forcing them to work harder for their command. Would certainly be a difference of quite a few months between someone doing 90hrs/month versus someone doing 75hrs a month.
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Will Still Call Sick
I will still call in sick. I don't think the 4 months will make a difference for me after waiting for 4 years. 
6 hrs for a BOM flight * 12 Months * 4 years = 288 hrs you will benifit for not calling in sick over 4 years, big F-ing deal.
6 hrs for a BOM flight * 12 Months * 4 years = 288 hrs you will benifit for not calling in sick over 4 years, big F-ing deal.
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Contradictions
Something that I can’t quite figure out here is what the motive is behind this latest policy. It serves little purpose other than to antagonize 45% of the pilot workforce for no perceivable gain.
A perfect contradiction. It is ok for the company to have the commander buried in the most remote location on the aircraft during his crew rest with two F/Os at the controls. The company line on this is that the caliber and training of the first officers is such that they are quite capable of handling any situation without the assistance of the Captain. All well and good. However with this new policy First Officers are not considered worthy of the left seat until they have at least 3000hrs on an EK type along with all the other restrictions.
Was it the company insurers who insisted on this? It is the only logical explanation I can come up with. Following this logic then surely similar restrictions should be placed on Post Holders and Managers within the company. Lets see how they stack up.
EVP Flight Operations & Engineering: AAR. An engineer (not a very competent one I am told) with no relevant flight experience.
DSVP Flight Ops. TCAS. No experience on EK type did fly long-haul at BA where the longest sector was about 11 hours with four crew then the whole lot had to stop for a round of Gin & Tonics and practice saying “ The Speedbird” followed by a week off in France.
VP Fleet; Ed Ah bless him. No relevant type experience. Possible long-haul experience as an F/O only, then Union Rep followed by an honors degree in greasy pole climbing. Longest sector flown in command on an RJ probably 3 hours. Has the audacity to call himself Captain though and occasionally dresses up for the part to amuse the troops.
VPFT: MM. To be fair jury still out on this one however no relevant EK experience and not an awful lot of civil command time I am told. Talks the talk still waiting to see if he can walk the walk.
As for the other minions CPs and DCPs, they are largely irrelevant in the decision making process. CP A380 is an illiterate incompetent buffoon but hey he is local so who cares. CP Boeing has actually spent some time in the trenches but he too is local and has reached the stage where he couldn’t give a sh_t about anything. As for DCP Boeing, I very much doubt that he has more than 3000 hrs on an EK type because he spends most of his days thinking up cunning and irrelevant questions to ask upgrade candidates. Should have a bit of time on his hands now though.
All in all not a very inspiring bunch.
Great post GN - post of the week award
4HP
A perfect contradiction. It is ok for the company to have the commander buried in the most remote location on the aircraft during his crew rest with two F/Os at the controls. The company line on this is that the caliber and training of the first officers is such that they are quite capable of handling any situation without the assistance of the Captain. All well and good. However with this new policy First Officers are not considered worthy of the left seat until they have at least 3000hrs on an EK type along with all the other restrictions.
Was it the company insurers who insisted on this? It is the only logical explanation I can come up with. Following this logic then surely similar restrictions should be placed on Post Holders and Managers within the company. Lets see how they stack up.
EVP Flight Operations & Engineering: AAR. An engineer (not a very competent one I am told) with no relevant flight experience.
DSVP Flight Ops. TCAS. No experience on EK type did fly long-haul at BA where the longest sector was about 11 hours with four crew then the whole lot had to stop for a round of Gin & Tonics and practice saying “ The Speedbird” followed by a week off in France.
VP Fleet; Ed Ah bless him. No relevant type experience. Possible long-haul experience as an F/O only, then Union Rep followed by an honors degree in greasy pole climbing. Longest sector flown in command on an RJ probably 3 hours. Has the audacity to call himself Captain though and occasionally dresses up for the part to amuse the troops.
VPFT: MM. To be fair jury still out on this one however no relevant EK experience and not an awful lot of civil command time I am told. Talks the talk still waiting to see if he can walk the walk.
As for the other minions CPs and DCPs, they are largely irrelevant in the decision making process. CP A380 is an illiterate incompetent buffoon but hey he is local so who cares. CP Boeing has actually spent some time in the trenches but he too is local and has reached the stage where he couldn’t give a sh_t about anything. As for DCP Boeing, I very much doubt that he has more than 3000 hrs on an EK type because he spends most of his days thinking up cunning and irrelevant questions to ask upgrade candidates. Should have a bit of time on his hands now though.
All in all not a very inspiring bunch.
Great post GN - post of the week award
4HP
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Increase Fight Time
The time has come to increase your flight time:
1. No more directs,
2. No more High speed below 10,000 (EK thinks this is bad anyhow)
3. Wow that is a big cloud 25 right of track,
4. Full approaches when possible,
5. Have to be very safe since I am inexperienced, Drag It In
Who will join.
1. No more directs,
2. No more High speed below 10,000 (EK thinks this is bad anyhow)
3. Wow that is a big cloud 25 right of track,
4. Full approaches when possible,
5. Have to be very safe since I am inexperienced, Drag It In
Who will join.
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Well this amongst everything else recently will certainly put off any new joiners! I feel for everyone over there, this is just ridiculous! What are they smoking?
Ok so at today's rate of flying how long would it take an FO to reach 3000hrs on the 777 or 330/340? 5-6 yrs?
Ok so at today's rate of flying how long would it take an FO to reach 3000hrs on the 777 or 330/340? 5-6 yrs?
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Ek aircraft type
Can we consider the B744 used in Skycargo under the EK aircraft type? anyone?
EK operates it as wet leased, together with their own pilots and I am guessing their own set of standards too.
EK operates it as wet leased, together with their own pilots and I am guessing their own set of standards too.
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FO's
Lets not put the attention to the Local FO's, im sure they have nothing to do with it. Besides its their Country, their land and their Airline. HH can do anything for their benefits.
What do i call myself again? ah, Expat.
What do i call myself again? ah, Expat.
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My post 01 Mar 2004:
My post 13 Mar 2004:
I empathize with all the F/O's at EK who are affected by this but the writing has been on the wall FOR YEARS.
For those who did not do their homework before coming here; I feel sorry for you but you were warned by me (as well as 100's of others on this website) back in 2004. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
For those who are still considering coming to EK; this might be your last opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others before you make the same mistake they did. Are you seriously prepared to give up your career to sign over you and your family (which you literally do) to this company??????
Disclosure: Multi-year EK Captain who has nothing to gain by dissuading others from joining. Doing my time and getting the hell out of here at the first available opportunity.
Time to Command??
Very tough question given the huge movement of the goalposts by EK management. The decision to forego the established seniority list in favour of DEC's and the fact there is no contractual obligation to provide equal (or in fact ANY) opportunities for command in the expat F/O contracts raises a whole new set of possibilities.
One of the issues I am surprised hasn't surfaced yet is whether there will be ANY commands for future or current expat F/O's in EK in the not too distant future. Think it couldn't happen; then think again. It may have already begun.
Everyone seems to assume because of the planned expansion rate everyone joining the company will get a left seat in the future. Everyone seems reassured by the management statements that they only intend upon hiring 100 or so DEC's to fill the "short term void" (which incidentally really does not exist; it has been created by the management to justify the entry of DEC's).
Just for argument sake, what if the DEC program ends up being a success in the eyes of management (due to either training cost savings, perceived increases in experience which you could argue we would attain by hiring an "experienced" DEC and keeping our very experienced F/O's in the RH seat, etc); would that not give them pause to reconsider the entire issue of "limited" DEC's?
Playing devils advocate, I would say that should the current DEC program work out as management feels it will then there is a very real chance EK could go the way of other Far East and Middle East airlines who have reduced or entirely eliminated expat F/O to Capt upgrades and keep the current EK F/O's as F/O's. This of course would not apply to local F/O's who would be given upgrade because they are locals. Is there 600 DEC's in this world EK could hire in the next 8 years (75/year)? Absolutely; and probably more so now that many Captains in "less than ideal" airlines around the world with less than 3000 hours PIC (who may have come to EK as F/O's before the DEC changes) are now forgoing application to EK as F/O's and instead are staying at their current companies to get the PIC hours to apply as DEC's to EK.
Couldn't happen?? Same people thought that at NASDAQ 5000! In my opinion it is not outside the realm of possibility and in fact very possible. And should that be the case, maybe the question everyone should be asking should not be WHEN but IF a command is possible (and it better be clearly spelled out in your contract if you are counting on it). And if not, can you afford to spend the remainder of your career in EK at the F/O wage scales?
Very tough question given the huge movement of the goalposts by EK management. The decision to forego the established seniority list in favour of DEC's and the fact there is no contractual obligation to provide equal (or in fact ANY) opportunities for command in the expat F/O contracts raises a whole new set of possibilities.
One of the issues I am surprised hasn't surfaced yet is whether there will be ANY commands for future or current expat F/O's in EK in the not too distant future. Think it couldn't happen; then think again. It may have already begun.
Everyone seems to assume because of the planned expansion rate everyone joining the company will get a left seat in the future. Everyone seems reassured by the management statements that they only intend upon hiring 100 or so DEC's to fill the "short term void" (which incidentally really does not exist; it has been created by the management to justify the entry of DEC's).
Just for argument sake, what if the DEC program ends up being a success in the eyes of management (due to either training cost savings, perceived increases in experience which you could argue we would attain by hiring an "experienced" DEC and keeping our very experienced F/O's in the RH seat, etc); would that not give them pause to reconsider the entire issue of "limited" DEC's?
Playing devils advocate, I would say that should the current DEC program work out as management feels it will then there is a very real chance EK could go the way of other Far East and Middle East airlines who have reduced or entirely eliminated expat F/O to Capt upgrades and keep the current EK F/O's as F/O's. This of course would not apply to local F/O's who would be given upgrade because they are locals. Is there 600 DEC's in this world EK could hire in the next 8 years (75/year)? Absolutely; and probably more so now that many Captains in "less than ideal" airlines around the world with less than 3000 hours PIC (who may have come to EK as F/O's before the DEC changes) are now forgoing application to EK as F/O's and instead are staying at their current companies to get the PIC hours to apply as DEC's to EK.
Couldn't happen?? Same people thought that at NASDAQ 5000! In my opinion it is not outside the realm of possibility and in fact very possible. And should that be the case, maybe the question everyone should be asking should not be WHEN but IF a command is possible (and it better be clearly spelled out in your contract if you are counting on it). And if not, can you afford to spend the remainder of your career in EK at the F/O wage scales?
Not a big fan of 411A but in this case I do agree with most of what both he and Millerscourt have said on this subject.
Having come to EK during what could be considered the "better" times I have continued to see the terms and conditions deteriorate over the past number of years as costs continue to rise in DXB. I guess we all make the decision to work offshore for different reasons. I came here for one primary reason and it isn't the +42 degrees in July. I came here primarily for the money combined to a lesser degree with the lifestyle I knew would be reasonable in Dubai. I have not been disappointed in DXB from a lifestyle point of view (with the exception of the driving) but certainly from a money point of view things have not progressed as I hoped they would.
There appears to be no end in sight given our current management's lack of respect towards the pilots and an unwillingness to even acknowledge there is a problem. Of course this is somewhat of a world wide phenomena but given the lack of any form of unions or pilot representation within EK I feel we are in a much more precarious position than those at most other carriers. The parallels to Gulf Air in the 80's are uncomfortably similar.
I think the bottom line to those that are either currently coming to EK or those that are thinking of doing so as First Officers (doesn't apply to DEC's as the deal they are getting is quite reasonable) is to look very carefully at your current career. As I alluded to in another thread on EK commands
EK time to Command???
I think there is a very real possibility that in the near future there will be no further upgrades from within EK (or at the very best, you are looking at many, many years to get to the left seat). You have to ask yourself whether you can afford to:
a) live on the current F/O wages and conditions in DXB for the rest of your career at EK (because it does not appear there is any impetus within the EK management to improve the money), and/or
b) allow your career to stagnate should this occur given the only other alternative would be to again uproot and try to find a new job that provides a future command.
I'm not saying come or don't come; just saying have a very close look at it. I would suggest for those with families that have school age children (education costs are expected to increase another 20% very soon and there is a good chance this will not be covered by EK) I feel it is an incredible gamble on your family’s financial future to come to EK given what my "crystal ball" shows might happen. I really hope I'm wrong, not only for those that might be coming but more importantly for those that are currently here waiting for the command. The last thing I would want anyone to do is come to EK unprepared for the worst (unlike our EVP Eng & Operations who apparently at the meeting formally requested inside information about EK NOT be released to PPRuNe, thereby not allowing individuals to make educated decisions), blinded by the shiny airplanes and the beaches, and then be stuck in the right seat for the rest of their careers wondering why the hell they made the move. There is a tremendous amount of information on Emirates on this website now to do with this subject; certainly enough to help each individual make a knowledge decision.
Having come to EK during what could be considered the "better" times I have continued to see the terms and conditions deteriorate over the past number of years as costs continue to rise in DXB. I guess we all make the decision to work offshore for different reasons. I came here for one primary reason and it isn't the +42 degrees in July. I came here primarily for the money combined to a lesser degree with the lifestyle I knew would be reasonable in Dubai. I have not been disappointed in DXB from a lifestyle point of view (with the exception of the driving) but certainly from a money point of view things have not progressed as I hoped they would.
There appears to be no end in sight given our current management's lack of respect towards the pilots and an unwillingness to even acknowledge there is a problem. Of course this is somewhat of a world wide phenomena but given the lack of any form of unions or pilot representation within EK I feel we are in a much more precarious position than those at most other carriers. The parallels to Gulf Air in the 80's are uncomfortably similar.
I think the bottom line to those that are either currently coming to EK or those that are thinking of doing so as First Officers (doesn't apply to DEC's as the deal they are getting is quite reasonable) is to look very carefully at your current career. As I alluded to in another thread on EK commands
EK time to Command???
I think there is a very real possibility that in the near future there will be no further upgrades from within EK (or at the very best, you are looking at many, many years to get to the left seat). You have to ask yourself whether you can afford to:
a) live on the current F/O wages and conditions in DXB for the rest of your career at EK (because it does not appear there is any impetus within the EK management to improve the money), and/or
b) allow your career to stagnate should this occur given the only other alternative would be to again uproot and try to find a new job that provides a future command.
I'm not saying come or don't come; just saying have a very close look at it. I would suggest for those with families that have school age children (education costs are expected to increase another 20% very soon and there is a good chance this will not be covered by EK) I feel it is an incredible gamble on your family’s financial future to come to EK given what my "crystal ball" shows might happen. I really hope I'm wrong, not only for those that might be coming but more importantly for those that are currently here waiting for the command. The last thing I would want anyone to do is come to EK unprepared for the worst (unlike our EVP Eng & Operations who apparently at the meeting formally requested inside information about EK NOT be released to PPRuNe, thereby not allowing individuals to make educated decisions), blinded by the shiny airplanes and the beaches, and then be stuck in the right seat for the rest of their careers wondering why the hell they made the move. There is a tremendous amount of information on Emirates on this website now to do with this subject; certainly enough to help each individual make a knowledge decision.
For those who did not do their homework before coming here; I feel sorry for you but you were warned by me (as well as 100's of others on this website) back in 2004. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
For those who are still considering coming to EK; this might be your last opportunity to learn from the mistakes of others before you make the same mistake they did. Are you seriously prepared to give up your career to sign over you and your family (which you literally do) to this company??????
Disclosure: Multi-year EK Captain who has nothing to gain by dissuading others from joining. Doing my time and getting the hell out of here at the first available opportunity.
Last edited by Dune; 16th Jun 2009 at 14:04.
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This place sucks... A total scam in my opinion. Anyone with a clue who is thinking of coming... think again. Especially FO's....
The contract they hire you on changes by the day.... and we have no way of fighting back.
Something seems to tell me having a union wouldn't be so bad after all....
The contract they hire you on changes by the day.... and we have no way of fighting back.
Something seems to tell me having a union wouldn't be so bad after all....
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Dune, for people hired in '04 and '05 it worked quite well. They're most probably now captains and "enjoying" being constantly second guessed now.
I most certainly second most of the sentiments aired here (since I have to sit next to people who would not be captains under the new rules but still are; and have to make up for their lack of experience) but do not forget: you are an expat.
I have never for a second bought this B$ about "finishing your career" at EK. You are an expat and you're here for one reason: To be a stop gap. But, and I'm sure EK Management realises this too, this is a two way road. I for sure will leave here as fast as I got here when openings will come up in a year or so. Unless they pay me to stay, that's what expats do. And if they do not, well, a couple thousand hours of WB intl. experience will be worthwile when all those geezers finally retire when they turn 65...
But for now management has decided to go for the short term budget saver than for the long term career builder. They'll reap what they sow eventually.
As far as the reasoning for the FCI, well that's an easy one: Since they do not need that many Captains anymore they might just go for the more experienced F/O's and DEC's.
I most certainly second most of the sentiments aired here (since I have to sit next to people who would not be captains under the new rules but still are; and have to make up for their lack of experience) but do not forget: you are an expat.
I have never for a second bought this B$ about "finishing your career" at EK. You are an expat and you're here for one reason: To be a stop gap. But, and I'm sure EK Management realises this too, this is a two way road. I for sure will leave here as fast as I got here when openings will come up in a year or so. Unless they pay me to stay, that's what expats do. And if they do not, well, a couple thousand hours of WB intl. experience will be worthwile when all those geezers finally retire when they turn 65...
But for now management has decided to go for the short term budget saver than for the long term career builder. They'll reap what they sow eventually.
As far as the reasoning for the FCI, well that's an easy one: Since they do not need that many Captains anymore they might just go for the more experienced F/O's and DEC's.
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What is the big deal of 3000 hours??? There were no promises in my contract for any committed upgrade.
As for DEC's, it is abundantly evident that they are cheaper to employ for five years, give or take, than to upgrade a F/O, especially due to the fact... most of their (DEC) children are grown and gone.
I have to admit I just howl at the arrogance of so many pilots screaming and moaning about all of their problems... as the house maids clean, the gardeners take care of the lawn, the nannies take care of their children, and all the wives are out for coffee or having their nails done....and planning the next exotic vacation. It is almost exhausting but yet I find so much humor in the entire ordeal that I can't stop reading pprune.
I would suggest to those of you employed by EK, if you find your bread not buttered well in Dubai, find some different butter elsewhere.
As for DEC's, it is abundantly evident that they are cheaper to employ for five years, give or take, than to upgrade a F/O, especially due to the fact... most of their (DEC) children are grown and gone.
I have to admit I just howl at the arrogance of so many pilots screaming and moaning about all of their problems... as the house maids clean, the gardeners take care of the lawn, the nannies take care of their children, and all the wives are out for coffee or having their nails done....and planning the next exotic vacation. It is almost exhausting but yet I find so much humor in the entire ordeal that I can't stop reading pprune.
I would suggest to those of you employed by EK, if you find your bread not buttered well in Dubai, find some different butter elsewhere.
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E/CRJ ->CP 777- 5 to 7 years where on Earth??
Guys I am really sorry for your situation BUT honestly to say for those who came from CRJ/ERJ , move into RHS of 777 and LHS just in 5 or iven 7 years is that so bad??? 
Point me pls. where is better???
I’ll puck mi bags right away.
I personally think that lucky what you got, just turned your brains a little bit,
look around you, for the rest of the World, the World that you actually escaped.
Sorry for spell and bitter
Point me pls. where is better???
I’ll puck mi bags right away.
I personally think that lucky what you got, just turned your brains a little bit,
look around you, for the rest of the World, the World that you actually escaped.
Sorry for spell and bitter