Unrealistic requests
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2001
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From: UAE
Unrealistic requests
Dear piloting fraternity,
When you check in with UAE control and you hear the controller banging aircraft left, right and into the spin, speed control all around and barely able to take a breath before the next a/c checks in....can you kindly THINK before you bother the controller by asking for the opposite end of the duty runway?
Do you seriously expect, with all that is going on, that the controller is going to even bother passing the request on to Dubai (who BTW is also up to his armpits in alligators, and who would have to coordinate that request with Dubai or Sharjah Tower as well)?
Some one said recently that Dubai handles more traffic than Gatwick....so my question is: When on approach to Gatwick or Heathrow, do you ask for the wrong end of the runway and expect to get it?
If the answer is yes...well....if the answer is no...well.....
happy aviating
When you check in with UAE control and you hear the controller banging aircraft left, right and into the spin, speed control all around and barely able to take a breath before the next a/c checks in....can you kindly THINK before you bother the controller by asking for the opposite end of the duty runway?
Do you seriously expect, with all that is going on, that the controller is going to even bother passing the request on to Dubai (who BTW is also up to his armpits in alligators, and who would have to coordinate that request with Dubai or Sharjah Tower as well)?
Some one said recently that Dubai handles more traffic than Gatwick....so my question is: When on approach to Gatwick or Heathrow, do you ask for the wrong end of the runway and expect to get it?
If the answer is yes...well....if the answer is no...well.....
happy aviating
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 271
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From: New Zealand
Same goes for Muscat. Please, don't even bother asking us for an opposite runway on our freq when heading for the UAE. It usually means an unnecessary call to our comrades over there, if we have time, and we can usually hear the sighs of frustration over the phone, although most of them accept such requests with grace and the odd bit of humour.
It is getting busier by the day and we really can't entertain things out of the ordinary as we used to in days gone by.
It is getting busier by the day and we really can't entertain things out of the ordinary as we used to in days gone by.
!Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 553
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From: Singapore
fair enough gents, point taken. but what occassionally happens that annoys the bejesus outa me is being made to taxi to the other end of the field for a tailwind takeoff just so atc can have their ducks in a row. remember, your job is still the SAFEST way to fly aeroplanes. if an unreasonable request is made, just say no. don't harp on like chooks.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 10
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From: qatar
cuitocuanavale, yes this is a very big issue! I accept that we can always say no, but why ask when you know the ATCO is busy? Or is it that you don't pay attention outside the cockpit?
brassplate: tower ATCOs do strange things
maybe they think it safer to have everyone going the same way?
brassplate: tower ATCOs do strange things
maybe they think it safer to have everyone going the same way?
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 43
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From: Tent in the Desert
Just wondered why on a few occasion we have been asked to slow down by UAE control only to be told to speed up by Dubai. Or speed up by one and then slow down by the other. Just wondered how things are co-ordinated over there at mission control. For the uninformed it would seem that the co-ordination is not well optimised for smoother sequencing between UAE and Dubai.
A simple explanation from one of you guys in the know would be great, because the next time someone on my flight deck says, "these guys don't know what they are doing...", I could counter that by saying, "Well not really, this is happening because...blah....blah...blah" In your defence.
If you have the time that is.
A simple explanation from one of you guys in the know would be great, because the next time someone on my flight deck says, "these guys don't know what they are doing...", I could counter that by saying, "Well not really, this is happening because...blah....blah...blah" In your defence.
If you have the time that is.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 312
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From: Sandpit
I remember emirates pilots systematically asking for the wrong end even after being informed that they were No.10 or so in the sequence. Made me vey fond of the phrase "Hold at SHJ, delay not determined!" 
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 271
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From: New Zealand
For the uninitiated,
Speaking from the Oman side of UAE, we have a local agreement to sequence northern UAE traffic via two entry points, giving our friends across the border 10 miles between any two aircraft with no closing speed. How we arrange that is entirely up to us and does not take into consideration any future considerations/STARS/requirements that the UAE centre may have. Hence, we'll speed/slow people up willy-nilly to achieve that flow and we can sometimes have up to 15 aircraft all lined up, with another 15-20 on the way. We know it's not ideal to have you varying your speeds and flying non-optimum descent profiles but we are still a little in the dinosaur age when it comes to developing better ways of doing business. It can get very exciting because it is still old-fashioned, manual ATC.
With respect to asking for opposite runways, I, too, have had people asking for the wrong runway and they've only been able to make that request in a nanosecond where there wasn't a steady patter on the freq. Unless you really know that there's nothing going on at your destination, please don't ask. It just takes up precious thinking time.
Remember, too, that you may only be hearing 20-30% of what we're actually doing, even when we're busy on the freq.
Safe flying
Speaking from the Oman side of UAE, we have a local agreement to sequence northern UAE traffic via two entry points, giving our friends across the border 10 miles between any two aircraft with no closing speed. How we arrange that is entirely up to us and does not take into consideration any future considerations/STARS/requirements that the UAE centre may have. Hence, we'll speed/slow people up willy-nilly to achieve that flow and we can sometimes have up to 15 aircraft all lined up, with another 15-20 on the way. We know it's not ideal to have you varying your speeds and flying non-optimum descent profiles but we are still a little in the dinosaur age when it comes to developing better ways of doing business. It can get very exciting because it is still old-fashioned, manual ATC.
With respect to asking for opposite runways, I, too, have had people asking for the wrong runway and they've only been able to make that request in a nanosecond where there wasn't a steady patter on the freq. Unless you really know that there's nothing going on at your destination, please don't ask. It just takes up precious thinking time.
Remember, too, that you may only be hearing 20-30% of what we're actually doing, even when we're busy on the freq.
Safe flying
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 156
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From: Sandpit
Sheik-it-easy and all those that have been given the slow down- speed up -slow down routine (or vice verca) by ATC in/out of DXB.
Firstly sorry, the problem that you have running into DXB/SHJ is that the Area centre is not even in the same Emirate as the DXB Approach let alone same building. Our comms between the two centres consists of a speed dial line which is shared with 2 sectors, there is no strategic flow control and no slot times. We don't even share the same equipment between the 3 major radar units in the UAE. This is the land of parochialism don't expect any resolution before you get fed up and leave the region.
So when the young F.O asks why DXB 124.9 have just given you high speed 300kts plus direct to the IAF just after UAE 132.15 has told you to reduce to 250kts and vectored you all over the Arabian Gulf.... shrug the shoulders and
PS. in so far as asking for opposite direction runway; unless you have an emergency you can ask away I will not be passing on any requests
Firstly sorry, the problem that you have running into DXB/SHJ is that the Area centre is not even in the same Emirate as the DXB Approach let alone same building. Our comms between the two centres consists of a speed dial line which is shared with 2 sectors, there is no strategic flow control and no slot times. We don't even share the same equipment between the 3 major radar units in the UAE. This is the land of parochialism don't expect any resolution before you get fed up and leave the region.
So when the young F.O asks why DXB 124.9 have just given you high speed 300kts plus direct to the IAF just after UAE 132.15 has told you to reduce to 250kts and vectored you all over the Arabian Gulf.... shrug the shoulders and
PS. in so far as asking for opposite direction runway; unless you have an emergency you can ask away I will not be passing on any requests
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 62
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From: Delphi
Sheik-It-Easy - Because UAE Center and DXB APP don't sit in the same room, co-ord between the two has to take place via telephone. It takes infinately longer to phone someone up and do some co-ord than it does to just shout it out to the guy next to you. Fixed procedures are put in place to minimize the requirement of co-ord e.g. 250kts at STAR commencement point. In order to go faster one would have to phone and ask for faster. 'Cause APP does not know what ACC is doing and vice versa, the one sector will do something (slow down) to make his picture work. The next sector has a picture of its own and might do something different (speed up) to make his thing happen. So what works for one, does not necessarily work for the other.
If you were to put people in the same room next to each other, this will definately make for a smoother operation, not perfect, but smoother. Add an ATC system that allows for silent co-ord, as opposed to the current mule driven system and things will get even better. Throw in a pinch of flow control (flow, wtf is that?) and this thing might just work. A central flow director for the whole UAE FIR comes to mind. I'm sure I've heard of places that work like that but I can be hallucinating. However, because the people in charge of deciding these things are all bickering, ego driven toddlers, this will never happen.
With the unprecedented growth in the region the good news is that it will get worse.
Edit - Sorry Funky, must have posted at the same time. We should get a life.
If you were to put people in the same room next to each other, this will definately make for a smoother operation, not perfect, but smoother. Add an ATC system that allows for silent co-ord, as opposed to the current mule driven system and things will get even better. Throw in a pinch of flow control (flow, wtf is that?) and this thing might just work. A central flow director for the whole UAE FIR comes to mind. I'm sure I've heard of places that work like that but I can be hallucinating. However, because the people in charge of deciding these things are all bickering, ego driven toddlers, this will never happen.
With the unprecedented growth in the region the good news is that it will get worse.
Edit - Sorry Funky, must have posted at the same time. We should get a life.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 221
Likes: 9
From: Australia
Why do ATC not volunteer to switch around the runway at Dubai when you have a fog bank sitting over the threshold of 12L in very light wind, with the touchdown and mid point for 30R wide open. Even if conditions only remain for ten minutes, a quick change in a/c sequencing will ensure a few landings at least.
many drivers are only asking what they see as obvious !
many drivers are only asking what they see as obvious !
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 43
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From: Tent in the Desert
Thanks for all the replies guys. Much appreciated and good luck with that central director thing for the whole of the UAE. I think we will definitely need it.
It begs the question though, that with Sheihk Maktoum Intl. definitely under way now, whether steps are in place to deal with the increase in air traffic in the region over the next few years.
Lets hope they're working on it.
It begs the question though, that with Sheihk Maktoum Intl. definitely under way now, whether steps are in place to deal with the increase in air traffic in the region over the next few years.
Lets hope they're working on it.
Last edited by Sheikh-It-Easy; 11th March 2008 at 20:11.
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Delphi
a quick change in a/c sequencing
whether steps are in place to deal with the increase in air traffic
what does it take to get the message through?
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 12
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From: Cape Town
WoW CC!!! Despite your near legendary status back in deepest darkest, that was very out of character for you!!
Procedures are procedures and responding to requests irrespective of traffic levels is I assume one of theirs, so I can clearly see their point. I believe us ATC's refer to it as 'situational awareness', sometimes a little of that sprinkled with some fore-thought from Pilot Pete will go a long way to easing the pressure plate on our job.
Not that as ATC's we dont make unreasonable requests at times, but if when selecting a new frequency all you hear is potato salad through a fan and a cat with its tail on fire................!!...dont request a runway other than whats on the ATIS!!
Procedures are procedures and responding to requests irrespective of traffic levels is I assume one of theirs, so I can clearly see their point. I believe us ATC's refer to it as 'situational awareness', sometimes a little of that sprinkled with some fore-thought from Pilot Pete will go a long way to easing the pressure plate on our job.
Not that as ATC's we dont make unreasonable requests at times, but if when selecting a new frequency all you hear is potato salad through a fan and a cat with its tail on fire................!!...dont request a runway other than whats on the ATIS!!
