EK quick questions
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 36
Likes: 2
From: The Sandpit
EK quick questions
Hi guys,
I realise there is a lot of animus being vented at the moment, but I need a couple of honest answers please....
10K total, legacy carrier F/O, perhaps 2.5K PIC heavy turbine from a former life. Likely to pick up a narrowbody command this year.
Always held a torch to EK for 'citizen of the world' reasons.
Are EK still offering the accelerated-command program? If that's so, how would I stand?
What about DEC in a couple of years?
Yes, I realise the politics. At this stage it's about scoping an answer elsewhere..
Many thanks in advance for the considered replies......
Best wishes to all for the New Year
FP
I realise there is a lot of animus being vented at the moment, but I need a couple of honest answers please....
10K total, legacy carrier F/O, perhaps 2.5K PIC heavy turbine from a former life. Likely to pick up a narrowbody command this year.
Always held a torch to EK for 'citizen of the world' reasons.
Are EK still offering the accelerated-command program? If that's so, how would I stand?
What about DEC in a couple of years?
Yes, I realise the politics. At this stage it's about scoping an answer elsewhere..
Many thanks in advance for the considered replies......
Best wishes to all for the New Year
FP
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
Are EK still offering the accelerated-command program? If that's so, how would I stand?
Accelerated command is one of those things that comes and goes at the convenience and whim of the management. Many pilots with suitable accelerated command experience have had to wait over 4 years for command, while some have been lucky and got accelerated in 18 months. It really is just a matter of luck, not an ideal criteria for career planning.
What about DEC in a couple of years?
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 183
Likes: 1
From: Alaska
Dont leave a legacy carrier just to get a widebody command. There is many guys who would leave EK tomorrow for a narrowbody command at home. Even some captains leaving for F/O positions at home.
Dont even think about it....................
Dont even think about it....................
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
no accelerated for you...
You won't be eligable for accelerated command at EK. You need 2000hrs command on jet >55tons, which you don't seems to have.
If you really want to come to EK, come as soon as possible to secure your place on the seniority list. You can expect an upgrade after around 4 years, check this thread for the logic behind it: Command time
The other option is to get your command where you are now (is it on jet > 55tons, i.e. B737, A320,.. ?) and gamble on a DEC entry once you have the 2000hrs requirement. Having said that, that will take you at least 4 years from now, and chances are quite big that no DEC's will be joiing anymore then, and you'll have to come as a FO anyway, with commands probably up to around 6 to 7 years by then...
MR8
If you really want to come to EK, come as soon as possible to secure your place on the seniority list. You can expect an upgrade after around 4 years, check this thread for the logic behind it: Command time
The other option is to get your command where you are now (is it on jet > 55tons, i.e. B737, A320,.. ?) and gamble on a DEC entry once you have the 2000hrs requirement. Having said that, that will take you at least 4 years from now, and chances are quite big that no DEC's will be joiing anymore then, and you'll have to come as a FO anyway, with commands probably up to around 6 to 7 years by then...
MR8
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
From: the world
RU said,
Delete the phrase 'Accelerated command' and insert "All Terms and Conditions".
Happy New Year to all, looking forward to a 'cost-neutral' 2008.
Accelerated command is one of those things that comes and goes at the convenience and whim of the management.
Happy New Year to all, looking forward to a 'cost-neutral' 2008.
Moderator
Joined: Jun 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,490
Likes: 32
From: Blighty
Life is tough. I gather some have trouble keeping their heads wound in during their time in the RHS.
EGGW
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Friendly Pelican (and all others considering a career change to Emirates):
Your question is one I've been asked many times by colleagues from "previous lives" who are contemplating a move to Emirates. Hence my response might be somewhat lengthy as I intend upon using this as a "template reply" to those who ask me in the future what I feel they should do.
While I'm sure there will be those who disagree (and I would encourage all expat pilots to provide input, not just Emirates types), here is my honest opinion/advice (Capt EK; been here going on 10 years; no management aspirations; consider myself rather "grounded" when compared to other posters on this website (my wife might disagree LOL!):
-Emirates is "generally" a good company from a pilots perspective (well capitalized, lots of new a/c orders, reasonably well organized in terms of rostering/staff travel/medical/education/housing/out-station support/etc).
-The lifestyle is "generally" of a good-to-high quality if you enjoy the beach/gym/sailing/etc (thanks in no part to Emirates; this is only a function of the Emirates Pilots Club which I tip my hat to!). My wife and I do enjoy this sort of lifestyle so for us this is a bonus and truly makes this place bearable. If you are not into this, in my opinion there is very little else beyond shopping
OK........that is the good stuff that I'm sure the recruiting team will have highlighted over and over in the promo-videos and the pumped-up recruitment road shows across the globe.
Now on to what you REALLY need to consider.
The problem with the whole thing is Dubai itself is a very difficult place to live in the long term. In 20 years it will be great with all the stuff they are building but currently it is nothing other than a huge construction site. This is not a short term problem; this is reality for the next 15-20 years. Even the government admits (albeit through "hints" in the local paper) that they are aware of the problem and are working towards a solution. The problem is the "solution" will not become reality for a very long time (they proudly mentioned 2015 as the time where they will have enough roads to handle all the cars). In the interim you are stuck inside a 24/7 construction site which for 4 months of the year resembles living inside a kiln (15 June-15 Oct inclusive ....trust me, those dates are unbelievably accurate based upon personal experience......and I like hot weather!).
Secondly; with due respect to other nationalities on this site, many of the "character issues" associated with those from the Middle East, India, Pakistan, etc will over time piss you off (insane driving without any talent/ability to actually control their vehicle.....leading to the deaths on the roads that have been talked about in detail; rude "butting in" in both traffic, banks, shopping centers; blatant staring at your wife/daughter by hordes of construction types, spitting out the window of the car, guys holding hands in public (and no, I am not homophobic LOL!) etc). In short, the term "uncivilized assholes" will become very clear to you when dealing with the majority of the population here.
Third, the other aspect to consider is the other "quality of life" issues. This would be the family/friends you leave and have little to no association with due to the disconnected nature of being an "international airline pilot". Do not discredit this aspect; while initially it all looks rosy there comes a time where you look back on all the friends getting together for house parties, lost family get togethers at the lake over the years, birthday parties, weddings, etc and really question whether the shiny airplanes and somewhat higher salary (rapidly dwindling at EK due to inflation and USD depreciation) is really worth it. The more you are here the more the answer becomes.....NO.
The point of this diatribe is I think this company/place is attractive (or not) depending on what part of the globe you are from, how old you are, how stable your current employment is with your current employer, and how long you plan to be here.
The single biggest question you need to ask yourself is:
"WHEN I/MY FAMILY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS PLACE, WHAT IS NEXT?"
"WHERE WILL I GO?"
"WHAT WILL I DO?"
.......because no matter what there comes a time when all of us have had enough of this place. That is the reality of Emirates and Dubai.
Here is what I think about those pilots who are considering Emirates:
THOSE WHO I FEEL SHOULD COME
-those who have significant flight experience, are unemployed and don't have a reasonable chance of getting hired by a major airline in the foreseeable future.
-those who have significant flight experience, are currently employed and have jobs with questionable airlines (charter airlines in countries with a history of bankruptcy's, low cost carriers other than those that have a proven history of consistent performance, etc) and where you have a genuine concern your airline will not be around in the future.
-those who are with "junior" airlines with little flying experience (small jet; maybe turbo prop in the future) and do not feel they will ever be able to get hired by a "legacy" carrier in their home country.
-those from (I hate to use the term) 3rd world countries where the salary you would earn in your home country (no matter how long you stayed there) would not equate to that you would earn at Emirates.
-those that are with "legacy" carriers but, due to recession/restructuring/takeovers/etc. are within 8-10 years of retirement (ie. age 55 +) and feel they can do better in their remaining "productive" flying years coming to EK as opposed to staying at their current carrier.
THOSE WHO I FEEL SHOULD NOT COME
-in addition to that above, those with any sort of family issues that preclude a long term (ie.....plan on a lifetime) devotion to living outside your home country (because for the majority this will become the reality) commitment to living/working outside your home country.
IMHO
If you are in a "legacy" company with a potential long term career that you can enjoy in your home country.......do not leave. I envy those who are in large "legacy" companies that have the potential to be around for the next 20 years.......no guarantees but if things turn for the worst and you are not "bought out" at least you have the option of going overseas at that time. If I was able to get a narrow body command with a reasonable chance of my employer being around in 10 years........I would take it. PERIOD.
-if you decide to come to Emirates, do not count on staying here more than 10-12 years. When you go through this process, think about where you will go when you/your wife have had enough.......obviously "home" will not be an option due to union/seniority issues therefore you have committed you/your family to a life of living in foreign countries for the rest of your career. Are you prepared to do this?
Friendly Pelican:
In your position, I would stay home and take the command. A couple years and you'll be eligible for an Emirates DEC position (note: I do not agree in any aspect with this policy but it is what it is). If your legacy carrier works out you'll have the best of all worlds: a PIC position that pays reasonable wages in a community you'll enjoy living in.
Alternate: take the command but watch the economy. If the U.S. goes into recession in 2008 (this is very possible) and there are furloes; try to take a voluntary furlough and come to EK........but in all cases protect your seniority number. When times get better........take your 2-3 years at EK and then go back to civilization.
Hi guys,
I realise there is a lot of animus being vented at the moment, but I need a couple of honest answers please....
10K total, legacy carrier F/O, perhaps 2.5K PIC heavy turbine from a former life. Likely to pick up a narrowbody command this year.
Always held a torch to EK for 'citizen of the world' reasons.
Are EK still offering the accelerated-command program? If that's so, how would I stand?
What about DEC in a couple of years?
Yes, I realise the politics. At this stage it's about scoping an answer elsewhere..
Many thanks in advance for the considered replies......
Best wishes to all for the New Year
FP
I realise there is a lot of animus being vented at the moment, but I need a couple of honest answers please....
10K total, legacy carrier F/O, perhaps 2.5K PIC heavy turbine from a former life. Likely to pick up a narrowbody command this year.
Always held a torch to EK for 'citizen of the world' reasons.
Are EK still offering the accelerated-command program? If that's so, how would I stand?
What about DEC in a couple of years?
Yes, I realise the politics. At this stage it's about scoping an answer elsewhere..
Many thanks in advance for the considered replies......
Best wishes to all for the New Year
FP
While I'm sure there will be those who disagree (and I would encourage all expat pilots to provide input, not just Emirates types), here is my honest opinion/advice (Capt EK; been here going on 10 years; no management aspirations; consider myself rather "grounded" when compared to other posters on this website (my wife might disagree LOL!):
-Emirates is "generally" a good company from a pilots perspective (well capitalized, lots of new a/c orders, reasonably well organized in terms of rostering/staff travel/medical/education/housing/out-station support/etc).
-The lifestyle is "generally" of a good-to-high quality if you enjoy the beach/gym/sailing/etc (thanks in no part to Emirates; this is only a function of the Emirates Pilots Club which I tip my hat to!). My wife and I do enjoy this sort of lifestyle so for us this is a bonus and truly makes this place bearable. If you are not into this, in my opinion there is very little else beyond shopping
OK........that is the good stuff that I'm sure the recruiting team will have highlighted over and over in the promo-videos and the pumped-up recruitment road shows across the globe.
Now on to what you REALLY need to consider.
The problem with the whole thing is Dubai itself is a very difficult place to live in the long term. In 20 years it will be great with all the stuff they are building but currently it is nothing other than a huge construction site. This is not a short term problem; this is reality for the next 15-20 years. Even the government admits (albeit through "hints" in the local paper) that they are aware of the problem and are working towards a solution. The problem is the "solution" will not become reality for a very long time (they proudly mentioned 2015 as the time where they will have enough roads to handle all the cars). In the interim you are stuck inside a 24/7 construction site which for 4 months of the year resembles living inside a kiln (15 June-15 Oct inclusive ....trust me, those dates are unbelievably accurate based upon personal experience......and I like hot weather!).
Secondly; with due respect to other nationalities on this site, many of the "character issues" associated with those from the Middle East, India, Pakistan, etc will over time piss you off (insane driving without any talent/ability to actually control their vehicle.....leading to the deaths on the roads that have been talked about in detail; rude "butting in" in both traffic, banks, shopping centers; blatant staring at your wife/daughter by hordes of construction types, spitting out the window of the car, guys holding hands in public (and no, I am not homophobic LOL!) etc). In short, the term "uncivilized assholes" will become very clear to you when dealing with the majority of the population here.
Third, the other aspect to consider is the other "quality of life" issues. This would be the family/friends you leave and have little to no association with due to the disconnected nature of being an "international airline pilot". Do not discredit this aspect; while initially it all looks rosy there comes a time where you look back on all the friends getting together for house parties, lost family get togethers at the lake over the years, birthday parties, weddings, etc and really question whether the shiny airplanes and somewhat higher salary (rapidly dwindling at EK due to inflation and USD depreciation) is really worth it. The more you are here the more the answer becomes.....NO.
The point of this diatribe is I think this company/place is attractive (or not) depending on what part of the globe you are from, how old you are, how stable your current employment is with your current employer, and how long you plan to be here.
The single biggest question you need to ask yourself is:
"WHEN I/MY FAMILY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS PLACE, WHAT IS NEXT?"
"WHERE WILL I GO?"
"WHAT WILL I DO?"
.......because no matter what there comes a time when all of us have had enough of this place. That is the reality of Emirates and Dubai.
Here is what I think about those pilots who are considering Emirates:
THOSE WHO I FEEL SHOULD COME
-those who have significant flight experience, are unemployed and don't have a reasonable chance of getting hired by a major airline in the foreseeable future.
-those who have significant flight experience, are currently employed and have jobs with questionable airlines (charter airlines in countries with a history of bankruptcy's, low cost carriers other than those that have a proven history of consistent performance, etc) and where you have a genuine concern your airline will not be around in the future.
-those who are with "junior" airlines with little flying experience (small jet; maybe turbo prop in the future) and do not feel they will ever be able to get hired by a "legacy" carrier in their home country.
-those from (I hate to use the term) 3rd world countries where the salary you would earn in your home country (no matter how long you stayed there) would not equate to that you would earn at Emirates.
-those that are with "legacy" carriers but, due to recession/restructuring/takeovers/etc. are within 8-10 years of retirement (ie. age 55 +) and feel they can do better in their remaining "productive" flying years coming to EK as opposed to staying at their current carrier.
THOSE WHO I FEEL SHOULD NOT COME
-in addition to that above, those with any sort of family issues that preclude a long term (ie.....plan on a lifetime) devotion to living outside your home country (because for the majority this will become the reality) commitment to living/working outside your home country.
IMHO
If you are in a "legacy" company with a potential long term career that you can enjoy in your home country.......do not leave. I envy those who are in large "legacy" companies that have the potential to be around for the next 20 years.......no guarantees but if things turn for the worst and you are not "bought out" at least you have the option of going overseas at that time. If I was able to get a narrow body command with a reasonable chance of my employer being around in 10 years........I would take it. PERIOD.
-if you decide to come to Emirates, do not count on staying here more than 10-12 years. When you go through this process, think about where you will go when you/your wife have had enough.......obviously "home" will not be an option due to union/seniority issues therefore you have committed you/your family to a life of living in foreign countries for the rest of your career. Are you prepared to do this?
Friendly Pelican:
In your position, I would stay home and take the command. A couple years and you'll be eligible for an Emirates DEC position (note: I do not agree in any aspect with this policy but it is what it is). If your legacy carrier works out you'll have the best of all worlds: a PIC position that pays reasonable wages in a community you'll enjoy living in.
Alternate: take the command but watch the economy. If the U.S. goes into recession in 2008 (this is very possible) and there are furloes; try to take a voluntary furlough and come to EK........but in all cases protect your seniority number. When times get better........take your 2-3 years at EK and then go back to civilization.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
From: evicted
Re: Dune
Wow! A well balanced post on pPrune!
+ my 25 fills...
If F.P. you decide to apply to EK, I'd bet more on the accelerated command than the DEC position for a number of reasons.
1. Pass rate for DEC at the selection programme is very low (ie 10%)
2. If you have narrowbody experience with limited international flying
you already lost points from the 100 you start out with.
3. DEC at EK is too much work... not worth the money
a. The flying is very diverse and you deal with the best and the
worst the world has to offer.
b. The groundstaff in the majority of places is outsourced, and sometimes not knowlegable and
it's on you to set them straight (Ex, "Captain we can de-ice by throwing hot water out on the wing with a bucket, that's what we always do here" ... this not a joke, I wish it was. Or "Captain you can use the higher holdover time, we NEVER have freezing fog in London!"
)
c. EK philosophy: Captain guilty until proven innocent.
d. As a DEC you'll never get senior = get quality of life, you'll always
be doomed to do night turns.
So you'll be better off to go in as an FO, get seniority, get the runnings of the system, learn how to deal with it's shortcomings, and be prepared to deal with it.
Wow! A well balanced post on pPrune!
+ my 25 fills...
If F.P. you decide to apply to EK, I'd bet more on the accelerated command than the DEC position for a number of reasons.
1. Pass rate for DEC at the selection programme is very low (ie 10%)
2. If you have narrowbody experience with limited international flying
you already lost points from the 100 you start out with.
3. DEC at EK is too much work... not worth the money
a. The flying is very diverse and you deal with the best and the
worst the world has to offer.
b. The groundstaff in the majority of places is outsourced, and sometimes not knowlegable and
it's on you to set them straight (Ex, "Captain we can de-ice by throwing hot water out on the wing with a bucket, that's what we always do here" ... this not a joke, I wish it was
. Or "Captain you can use the higher holdover time, we NEVER have freezing fog in London!")c. EK philosophy: Captain guilty until proven innocent.
d. As a DEC you'll never get senior = get quality of life, you'll always
be doomed to do night turns.
So you'll be better off to go in as an FO, get seniority, get the runnings of the system, learn how to deal with it's shortcomings, and be prepared to deal with it.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
From: the edge of my seat
Dune, very informative!!! Way moreso than the "warts and all" presentation at the Ek roadshow last year!!
Good luck to all in keeping/finding their dream job-if such a thing still exists-this year.
Pat
Good luck to all in keeping/finding their dream job-if such a thing still exists-this year.
Pat
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 1998
Posts: 36
Likes: 2
From: The Sandpit
WOW
Mr Dune, Sir:
You'll see from my profile that I'm a long-timer here on PPRuNe. (In fact, I was posting on the boards in late 97, before a six-month hiatus due to the arrival of my first daughter.) In that time I've seen the 'professional' element of posts deteriorate a great deal, at least in some of the Forums I visit.
I honestly think yours is one of the best posts I've read in a while: lucid, cogent and honest.
Someone recently mentioned the concept of 'internet virtual beer'. Lacking the facility to buy you a real one, please accept this as token for as many virtual ones as you see fit.
Thanks for your help.
FP
(A lame handle, I know; but when I got back to the boards, my original one was taken by some upstart who doesn't post, and probably doesn't even lurk!)
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 599
Likes: 5
From: Cat West
Great job Dune,
This is probably the biggest "fog" clearer yet. It helps to slowly clear up the picture we are trying to have painted. It really gives up much info for our decision making process. You really showed many points of view on the same subject from your experience.
I am 46, married, fairly senior at a Regional, Check Airmen, 90% on my way to financial retirement. Not a single Major in the states seems at the least interested. Our goal is to work 5-7 years in Dubai, and then we can do what we want. Projecting a 4 year upgrade, we feel this will put us over the edge. The many variables are slowly becoming fewer. The living accomodations, and inflation are quickly coming to the top of the list of concerns. We plan on coming to the interview, both of us, and spending a week there. Looking up a few people we know that are there, not friends but distance acquaintences, and trying to absorb as much of the environment as we can. Right now I am in limbo between the shortlist on line, to being invited for the visit. We are remaining rigidly flexible about the process.
4-7 years in Dubai, or 19 more years flying an RJ will get me in the same place. This is my situation, you have greatly helped clear up things for me. If you have any other words of wisdom, or anyone else for that matter, I will be gladly to accept.
Thanks,
Guns-A-GoGo
This is probably the biggest "fog" clearer yet. It helps to slowly clear up the picture we are trying to have painted. It really gives up much info for our decision making process. You really showed many points of view on the same subject from your experience.
I am 46, married, fairly senior at a Regional, Check Airmen, 90% on my way to financial retirement. Not a single Major in the states seems at the least interested. Our goal is to work 5-7 years in Dubai, and then we can do what we want. Projecting a 4 year upgrade, we feel this will put us over the edge. The many variables are slowly becoming fewer. The living accomodations, and inflation are quickly coming to the top of the list of concerns. We plan on coming to the interview, both of us, and spending a week there. Looking up a few people we know that are there, not friends but distance acquaintences, and trying to absorb as much of the environment as we can. Right now I am in limbo between the shortlist on line, to being invited for the visit. We are remaining rigidly flexible about the process.
4-7 years in Dubai, or 19 more years flying an RJ will get me in the same place. This is my situation, you have greatly helped clear up things for me. If you have any other words of wisdom, or anyone else for that matter, I will be gladly to accept.
Thanks,
Guns-A-GoGo
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,777
Likes: 0
From: uae
Interveiw but lately a bit better, there was a time when the guys coming for DEC,s were diasters, hence 10 %.
There has been not as many lately and would guess that the % is now a bit higher. Depending where you come from there might be pre screening sim if a sim is avail and that would help the %
There has been not as many lately and would guess that the % is now a bit higher. Depending where you come from there might be pre screening sim if a sim is avail and that would help the %
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Near Xivil
Great Post by Dune !
Hey Dune,
As your name suggests, you probaby know the desert life better than most. GREAT POST !! Really well worded and gives a clear, balanced picture about life in DXB & working for EK.
Have an interview with them coming up in Feb ( I have the accelerated command requirements). Will read your post once again before I make my final decision ( If they offer me the job that is !
)
Happy flying in 2008 !!
As your name suggests, you probaby know the desert life better than most. GREAT POST !! Really well worded and gives a clear, balanced picture about life in DXB & working for EK.
Have an interview with them coming up in Feb ( I have the accelerated command requirements). Will read your post once again before I make my final decision ( If they offer me the job that is !
)Happy flying in 2008 !!
