Basing:rumors or what?
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 164
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From: Over Graz
Offshore basing rumors have crept up from time to time; however, the higher brass has reiterated that it is not going to happen.
Some believe that the company would be exposed to the laws of "normal" countries, when pilots decided to sue them for one reason or another. Apparently, there are some fiscal and tax issues that would have to be resolved in favor of Emirates, of course.
Then again, it could happen in the future, because many things have changed in the past few years. The crazy expansion program is putting a lot of pressure on them, as far as attracting qualified labor is concerned, in general. Therefore, I would not be surprised if basing pilots overseas would be one more perk to be offered by the company.
My opinion, anyway.
Some believe that the company would be exposed to the laws of "normal" countries, when pilots decided to sue them for one reason or another. Apparently, there are some fiscal and tax issues that would have to be resolved in favor of Emirates, of course.
Then again, it could happen in the future, because many things have changed in the past few years. The crazy expansion program is putting a lot of pressure on them, as far as attracting qualified labor is concerned, in general. Therefore, I would not be surprised if basing pilots overseas would be one more perk to be offered by the company.
My opinion, anyway.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,450
Likes: 3
I think it will come - but only when it is absolutely forced upon them. My bet is they'll hold out for as long as possible, with a few dropped hints in carefully selected ears to keep people hopeful in the meantime, in much the same way as they've managed to keep many disaffected training captains in the training fold for years now with promises of improved packages 'soon'.
For those who say 'never': it's funny how the dynamics can change with an unexpected input from left field tipping the balance. I heard only today that lack of pilot accommodation has suddenly become an issue, and with and increase in pilot numbers of 560 planned for 2008, that could become a very important factor. I know there are empty houses out at Silicone O, but they are right on the edge of the current construction site, and would certainly present a problem for anyone working back of the clock shifts as all EK pilots do - and I think this has been recognised by the PTB. (The huge increase in Flight Attendant numbers that will accompany that increase in pilot numbers will involve a very large number of apartments being constructed for EK as well.)
If the story of a housing shortage is true, I for one would be happy to relieve that shortage in double quick time for them - and I suspect, (in fact I know), I wouldn't be the only one. I think there'd be a near stampede if an offer was tabled - but see below.
The downside to any such scheme is pretty obvious to anyone who's been in the Sandpit for any length of time. As sure as Allah made little apples, they will surely come up with an offer that will involve a huge sting in the hip pocket and/or reduced T&C's for anyone taking it. That I'd be willing to to place a very substantial wager on.
For those who say 'never': it's funny how the dynamics can change with an unexpected input from left field tipping the balance. I heard only today that lack of pilot accommodation has suddenly become an issue, and with and increase in pilot numbers of 560 planned for 2008, that could become a very important factor. I know there are empty houses out at Silicone O, but they are right on the edge of the current construction site, and would certainly present a problem for anyone working back of the clock shifts as all EK pilots do - and I think this has been recognised by the PTB. (The huge increase in Flight Attendant numbers that will accompany that increase in pilot numbers will involve a very large number of apartments being constructed for EK as well.)
If the story of a housing shortage is true, I for one would be happy to relieve that shortage in double quick time for them - and I suspect, (in fact I know), I wouldn't be the only one. I think there'd be a near stampede if an offer was tabled - but see below.
The downside to any such scheme is pretty obvious to anyone who's been in the Sandpit for any length of time. As sure as Allah made little apples, they will surely come up with an offer that will involve a huge sting in the hip pocket and/or reduced T&C's for anyone taking it. That I'd be willing to to place a very substantial wager on.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 230
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From: Over the horizon
Considering the growth plans and what appears to be an increase in demand for experienced pilots woldwide, I would imagine it could happen sooner rather than later.
Often thought about sending in an application and still might, but should basing be offered, it would have gone out yesterday. The concept seems to work well for CP, see no logistical reason why it would not work for EK.
Often thought about sending in an application and still might, but should basing be offered, it would have gone out yesterday. The concept seems to work well for CP, see no logistical reason why it would not work for EK.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 140
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From: London
My opinion only,
Basing will only be offered on A380 as it will have dedicated routes , the 777 and A330 often mix flights on the same sectors.
I guess new joiners will be offered a base on new t & Cs possibly not on the seniority list . Also the current EK pilots wanting a base would have to resign and rejoin possibly losing their 13 step salary and staff travel priority. Ie treated as a new joiner. If it is so popular will Captains be able to apply for bases as F/Os and wait. Im sure it can work ....
The 747-800 freighters will also be crewed into basings from outside probably with guys already typed on the -400.
Basing will only be offered on A380 as it will have dedicated routes , the 777 and A330 often mix flights on the same sectors.
I guess new joiners will be offered a base on new t & Cs possibly not on the seniority list . Also the current EK pilots wanting a base would have to resign and rejoin possibly losing their 13 step salary and staff travel priority. Ie treated as a new joiner. If it is so popular will Captains be able to apply for bases as F/Os and wait. Im sure it can work ....
The 747-800 freighters will also be crewed into basings from outside probably with guys already typed on the -400.
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
From: South of North
I don't see why it would be difficult. If the concern is about legal issues in other countries then do not call it a base.
Instead you tel the pilots that there are, for ex. 50 cap/fo spots available in London. Rosters will be built from London and end in London. Pilots bid by seniority for those 'roster spots'. Your contract would be a Dubai based contract with the EXACT same pay and conditions. If you choose to take one of these 'spots' you can leave your accomodation and get the housing allowance.
You could call this a virtual basing or a roster based basing or whatever you like. The choice to actually live in London would be the pilots. He deals with any residency or tax issues himself. The keeps EK hands clean of any foreign issues.
However, if I was the co. and building these block I would also make sure that those pilots in virtual bases are clear that their block choice would be much more limited (which should be obvious). You would get the basing you like but the flying would not be nearly as enjoyable or with as many options.
Instead you tel the pilots that there are, for ex. 50 cap/fo spots available in London. Rosters will be built from London and end in London. Pilots bid by seniority for those 'roster spots'. Your contract would be a Dubai based contract with the EXACT same pay and conditions. If you choose to take one of these 'spots' you can leave your accomodation and get the housing allowance.
You could call this a virtual basing or a roster based basing or whatever you like. The choice to actually live in London would be the pilots. He deals with any residency or tax issues himself. The keeps EK hands clean of any foreign issues.
However, if I was the co. and building these block I would also make sure that those pilots in virtual bases are clear that their block choice would be much more limited (which should be obvious). You would get the basing you like but the flying would not be nearly as enjoyable or with as many options.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,450
Likes: 3
I think Trader's ideas are what most wannbegone EK pilots would call the 'dream package' - and for that reason alone, will probably never come to pass.
I would see a system when one 'Oz roster' (but still Dubai-based) pilot brings a service in to Syd/Mel/Bne and a second one takes it out working almost seamlessly for all concerned. (The same would work for most of not all the UK, European and US ports.) EK gets remote reserve cover without the heroic carryon we see on the front page of the current Al Safah, where after a captain went down with appendicitis in Sydney, some poor sod did a 14 hour trip from Dubai to Sydney and after min rest, took the service out. EK doesn't have to provide villas in DXB for as many people as they let take up remote rosters - at the considerably less cost of three or four nights in a Dubai hotel per month for those same people. In fact, the more efficently they design such rosters, the fewer nights in Dubai hotels they'd have to provide.
I don't think too many people taking up such remote base rosters would have any problems with their bidding being somewhat restricted, as long as such restrictions aren't taken to a ridiculous degree.
Sadly, my experience of the Sandpit makes me think we're al dreaming... but I live in hope.
I would see a system when one 'Oz roster' (but still Dubai-based) pilot brings a service in to Syd/Mel/Bne and a second one takes it out working almost seamlessly for all concerned. (The same would work for most of not all the UK, European and US ports.) EK gets remote reserve cover without the heroic carryon we see on the front page of the current Al Safah, where after a captain went down with appendicitis in Sydney, some poor sod did a 14 hour trip from Dubai to Sydney and after min rest, took the service out. EK doesn't have to provide villas in DXB for as many people as they let take up remote rosters - at the considerably less cost of three or four nights in a Dubai hotel per month for those same people. In fact, the more efficently they design such rosters, the fewer nights in Dubai hotels they'd have to provide.
I don't think too many people taking up such remote base rosters would have any problems with their bidding being somewhat restricted, as long as such restrictions aren't taken to a ridiculous degree.
Sadly, my experience of the Sandpit makes me think we're al dreaming... but I live in hope.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
Not happening...
First of all, can't see it happening.
Secondly, it would be mostly unfair, and I for one oppose a basing system the way you guys dream of one.
Before being flamed, let me explain:
Let's take a base out of Sydney, the wet dream of many of my Oz-mates. I happen to enjoy my odd Sydney trip if I can get one. Having guys based over there suddenly makes the chance for me to get a Sydney trip close to.. euh.. zero?
Of course, it wouldn't only be Sydney. Same will go for UK, Melbourne, US, ... So, the guys who are stuck in Dubai are suddenly also stuck with a less then desireable roster. All turn-arounds and medium haul flights. The long haul, which makes our life easier and which gives us our days off, will mostly go to based guys...
No, sorry guys, but I am absolutely against basings. Commuting rosters (where you commute as a pax) are fine, basings where you operate out of your base and take away my chance of a decent roster.. forget about it!!
MR8
Secondly, it would be mostly unfair, and I for one oppose a basing system the way you guys dream of one.
Before being flamed, let me explain:
Let's take a base out of Sydney, the wet dream of many of my Oz-mates. I happen to enjoy my odd Sydney trip if I can get one. Having guys based over there suddenly makes the chance for me to get a Sydney trip close to.. euh.. zero?
Of course, it wouldn't only be Sydney. Same will go for UK, Melbourne, US, ... So, the guys who are stuck in Dubai are suddenly also stuck with a less then desireable roster. All turn-arounds and medium haul flights. The long haul, which makes our life easier and which gives us our days off, will mostly go to based guys...
No, sorry guys, but I am absolutely against basings. Commuting rosters (where you commute as a pax) are fine, basings where you operate out of your base and take away my chance of a decent roster.. forget about it!!
MR8
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
From: Jew-Buy Mate
How about the SYD based pilot doing.
SYD-DXB
DXB-HYD-DXB
DXB-BOM-DXB
DXB-BLR-DXB
DXB-IKA-DXB
DXB-MAA-DXB
DXB-SYD
That way he could do it all in seven days. The only problem would be the loss of revenue in DXB because the beer sales would drop off. That would also leave a few decent trips for the rest of us.
SYD-DXB
DXB-HYD-DXB
DXB-BOM-DXB
DXB-BLR-DXB
DXB-IKA-DXB
DXB-MAA-DXB
DXB-SYD
That way he could do it all in seven days. The only problem would be the loss of revenue in DXB because the beer sales would drop off. That would also leave a few decent trips for the rest of us.
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: The Grassy Noel
EK worldwide
I really don't like being negative but do you really think that EK is going to do something like CX and have other bases. I mentioned before that EK would have to go by the labour laws of the country it's in. Not to mention the riot it will cause in Dubai to offer new joiners bases other than Dubai instead of the current group of pilots. It will have to snow first in the sandpit, but I guess that's happened already with the ski hill!
As for Traders comments about getting the housing allowance that's a great idea but do you really think TC will go for that. EK always wins! Great other ideas Trader but to be an expat you have to give eveything up in your own country to avoid paying tax.
As MR8 mentioned it will piss off to many guys in the sandpit.
Buzz
As for Traders comments about getting the housing allowance that's a great idea but do you really think TC will go for that. EK always wins! Great other ideas Trader but to be an expat you have to give eveything up in your own country to avoid paying tax.
As MR8 mentioned it will piss off to many guys in the sandpit.
Buzz
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
From: Australia
MR8, you like Sydney flights? Judging by the number you see on offer every other day on the swap group, you must be one of the very few.
I don't think you need bother yourself about missing out on your 'odd' Sydney if they allow a few pilots to live there, because I'm sure they'd have any such pilots hareing off to do the odd Islamabad or Chennai night return while they've got'em passing through Dubai (and after minimum rest) - and probably make'em check out of their hotel while they're doing so, as we already do on the Auckland shuttle!!!
I don't think Australia-based pilots would object too loudly to that if it wasn't too extreme, as it would be in their interest to be out of Australia for at least 15 days a month to maybe dodge being labeled as residents by the ATO.
I tend to agree with others who've made similar comments: if Adel and Co ever agree to any such scheme, you can bet there'll be some massive sting in the tail. My guess would be you resign and re-join as a new start in EKOZ and lose all your seniority for bidding and staff travel. They'll feel duty bound to pull some such stunt. They just can't help themselves.
When you think about it, they could even swing that to their own advantage, as any such pilots staying in a Dubai hotel would be buying the beers at Dubai hotel bar prices rather than by the slab from MMI, and their food at Dubai hotel prices, so they'd probably get more revenue out of them on six or seven nights than they would if they were resident in Dubai for the whole month.
I don't think you need bother yourself about missing out on your 'odd' Sydney if they allow a few pilots to live there, because I'm sure they'd have any such pilots hareing off to do the odd Islamabad or Chennai night return while they've got'em passing through Dubai (and after minimum rest) - and probably make'em check out of their hotel while they're doing so, as we already do on the Auckland shuttle!!!
I don't think Australia-based pilots would object too loudly to that if it wasn't too extreme, as it would be in their interest to be out of Australia for at least 15 days a month to maybe dodge being labeled as residents by the ATO.
I tend to agree with others who've made similar comments: if Adel and Co ever agree to any such scheme, you can bet there'll be some massive sting in the tail. My guess would be you resign and re-join as a new start in EKOZ and lose all your seniority for bidding and staff travel. They'll feel duty bound to pull some such stunt. They just can't help themselves.
The only problem would be the loss of revenue in DXB because the beer sales would drop off.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
From: London
Its true there will be many basings in 2008 2009 in Australia. requires a new set of wings and a job with Jet star, Tiger or Virgin. Pay is considerably more than EK before tax. MR8 you can get all the Aus trips you want as there will not be any Aussies left in EK to bid for them....................
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 29
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From: Planet earth
The fact the they have stations abroad makes them legally liable according to that state law thus if you really want to sue them in your country you can do it provided they have a station there...or at least that's what I'm been told. In that case having a base is not that much of a difference right? The fact is that Dubai is a very fragile economy, with a level of speculation far from normal and with real estate bubble in the verge of a massive explosion.. Who is going to live in the apartment you are goign to vacate, who will go to Spinneys to buy groceries, who will pay salik charges.. Lot of immigration to Dubai?Yeah..mainly cheap labour coming to be exploited and that can't afford much other then food...cheap food.. Some friends workong outside of aviation already packing... Life too expensive and Dhs worth nothing..
They need a middle class here to keep the place running..and you are the middle class they won't let you go......I think this is the real reason why they don't base.Oil is about to finish and their ambititon to become like Singapore a major financial and commercial hub are greatly diminished by the fact that Dubai....is not Singapore. They need Emirates employee to leave in Dubai.
They need a middle class here to keep the place running..and you are the middle class they won't let you go......I think this is the real reason why they don't base.Oil is about to finish and their ambititon to become like Singapore a major financial and commercial hub are greatly diminished by the fact that Dubai....is not Singapore. They need Emirates employee to leave in Dubai.
