Must see for EK pilots - Income protection issue
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Duh. 400 members didn't join on day one. the membership has built up gradually over the year. If you looked at average membership over the first year, it looks about right. Thanks to the LIPS team.
Join Date: May 2007
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I spoke to a lawyer friend this week and in his view 'something smells fishy' about how LIPS was sold and promoted to the membership by committee members with a financial interest in the scheme. He says this a potentially a conflict of interest and could land the committee in hot water if an individual decided to sue over a failed claim.
He also has concern with the lack of transparency of management of the scheme and legal status of the club.
He also has concern with the lack of transparency of management of the scheme and legal status of the club.
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Three posts and a very strong opinion on LIPS?
What's in it for you Mr 380?
Perhaps you bat for the other team?
The more that people like you bag LIPS, the more determined I am to see it work. I know it has limitations but I have no faith in Top Cover. Why? They only introduced monthly payments when faced with competition, they provided a "big fat zero" on customer support. The only mail I ever saw was to collect a premium. Not to forget the small matter of term benefit introduction, it was to age 60 now reduced to 5 years. Top Cover, stick it where it hurts, I'll do without thank you.
What's in it for you Mr 380?
Perhaps you bat for the other team?
The more that people like you bag LIPS, the more determined I am to see it work. I know it has limitations but I have no faith in Top Cover. Why? They only introduced monthly payments when faced with competition, they provided a "big fat zero" on customer support. The only mail I ever saw was to collect a premium. Not to forget the small matter of term benefit introduction, it was to age 60 now reduced to 5 years. Top Cover, stick it where it hurts, I'll do without thank you.
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Join Date: Aug 2000
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I find it hard to comment on whether one scheme is better than the other (I am a member of one and it just seems easier not to switch).
What I found surprising in the discussion though is that nobody seems to think of the possibility of a member trying to con the scheme by claiming to be sick (or at least a lot more sick than he/she really is as the payout is more attractive than to keep working??). In that case I would want my scheme administrators to be as difficult as possible.
Is it really always the 'big bad company screwing the individual'. I don't really like to think of any of my colleagues ever claiming insurance money in bad faith, but I don't want to be naive either.
What I found surprising in the discussion though is that nobody seems to think of the possibility of a member trying to con the scheme by claiming to be sick (or at least a lot more sick than he/she really is as the payout is more attractive than to keep working??). In that case I would want my scheme administrators to be as difficult as possible.
Is it really always the 'big bad company screwing the individual'. I don't really like to think of any of my colleagues ever claiming insurance money in bad faith, but I don't want to be naive either.
Join Date: May 2007
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atiuta of course I'm batting for the other team. What's in it for me you ask - Zip, I have no financial interest in TopCover or AIG. I am just a happy policy holder.
Con men love people like you. I have a bunch of emails from Nigeria I could forward to you.
Con men love people like you. I have a bunch of emails from Nigeria I could forward to you.
Join Date: May 2007
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EK - Income Protection
I'm curious:
the front page of myepc.org states that
and yet on the LIPS page it states:
3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the LIPS Management Team which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator. The LIPS Management Team which shall act for and on behalf of EPCL shall be entitled to reasonable remuneration for its services, such remuneration and any expenses reasonably incurred shall be recoverable from the assets of the Scheme.
so which is it?
LIPS/EPC are either acting as insurance brokers selling an insurance product or they are acting as finance brokers selling an investment related product, activities for which they are not licensed by the UAE Ministry of Economy nor the Central Bank.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
the front page of myepc.org states that
The EPC and the Committee of the EPC has NOTHING - Repeat NOTHING - to do with LIPS. The Committee does not endorse nor support any loss of licence insurance.
As a service to the EPC members, the EPC assists in the salary deduction for the convenience of EPC members only.
To repeat - the EPC Committee has no involvement whatsoever with the management and administration of the LIPS Scheme.
As a service to the EPC members, the EPC assists in the salary deduction for the convenience of EPC members only.
To repeat - the EPC Committee has no involvement whatsoever with the management and administration of the LIPS Scheme.
and yet on the LIPS page it states:
3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the LIPS Management Team which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator. The LIPS Management Team which shall act for and on behalf of EPCL shall be entitled to reasonable remuneration for its services, such remuneration and any expenses reasonably incurred shall be recoverable from the assets of the Scheme.
so which is it?
LIPS/EPC are either acting as insurance brokers selling an insurance product or they are acting as finance brokers selling an investment related product, activities for which they are not licensed by the UAE Ministry of Economy nor the Central Bank.
Can anyone shed any light on this?
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I_P, you are a sh#t stirer, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you but your post has only one aim and that is to undermine a product that you don't agree with but which apparently 400 people do. It is probabley no coincidence that it is policy renewal time for TopCover and you decide to join Pprune and start posting against the LIPS scheme. You sound well enough informed on the topic, if you want to know the answer to your question, the one you keep asking, then go and ask the people you are so eager to criticise. ie the EPC or LIPS administrators. If your favoured product is so good it will stand on its merits, some 400 of your colleagues have chosen another product, presumabley after waying up the pros and cons, they don't need you damaging their attempts to establish an alternative. It borders on commercial espionage.
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F-S-M, I have raised a valid question and it hasn't been answered. And yes I have raised it with EPC.
Maybe I am sh*t stirring, but if you can explain to me how that would be any different to what atiuta, mensaboy, vorsicht, sheikh-yr-bootie and particularly blueside are doing then I would be really fascinated to hear it.
In fact, whilst you are at it, perhaps you could also explain how my actions that you perceive to "criticise, damage the reputation and to undermine a product" differs from what all the other negative comments about Topcover are trying to do on this thread.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I agree with you that it is probably no coincidence that it is coming up for the Topcover renewal and blueside starts this thread and ends with "After that contact EPC LIPS for your insurance needs".
I joined this forum to bring another side of the argument and to hopefully point out that whilst Topcover might not be perfect, neither is LIPS and we all need to make informed decisions and not ones based on anonymous postings of some disgruntled CX pilot in HK.
I_P
Maybe I am sh*t stirring, but if you can explain to me how that would be any different to what atiuta, mensaboy, vorsicht, sheikh-yr-bootie and particularly blueside are doing then I would be really fascinated to hear it.
In fact, whilst you are at it, perhaps you could also explain how my actions that you perceive to "criticise, damage the reputation and to undermine a product" differs from what all the other negative comments about Topcover are trying to do on this thread.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I agree with you that it is probably no coincidence that it is coming up for the Topcover renewal and blueside starts this thread and ends with "After that contact EPC LIPS for your insurance needs".
I joined this forum to bring another side of the argument and to hopefully point out that whilst Topcover might not be perfect, neither is LIPS and we all need to make informed decisions and not ones based on anonymous postings of some disgruntled CX pilot in HK.
I_P
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Lips is a great idea but the fact that it is managed by the EPC and or pilots should be enough of a warning for every one. No regulations, no training, no guarantees, no bloody way!
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I_P, fair enough, I just felt there was a difference between critising a product following an actual complaint and scare mongering. Perhaps the promised LIPS report (next month?) might answer these Qs??.
Join Date: Aug 1999
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Let's hope it does. This is obviously a fairly emotive issue, understandably, as our futures are at stake here. Noone wants to think they will lose their licence and their career, but on the off chance it does happen, we take out insurance. The insurance is our back stop, and we don't want to believe our back stop is flawed. After all it is our last chance.
I have to admit that my preference is for a fully regulated insurance scheme. I am sure Top Cover is not perfect, but given the circumstances of our employment, they give me greater assurance. It is true the coverage has decreased to 5 years from what it was previously until age 55. That was a major blow. I have approached other major insurance companies for a comparable scheme and have been laughed off.
But that is what makes me uneasy about LIPS. I am very certainly no financial guru. What happens to LIPS when the first guy starts claiming? Probably not a lot. But given the exponential growth of the airline and the number of guys we are hiring, can we be sure that any abuse of the system can be properly tackled. Theoretically, we could be in a position of having to fund guys for 20 years or more, and as the numbers increase, will LIPS be able to track these guys for fraudulent claims effectively? Expecting this from two appointed people is a bit much.
With another thousand pilots to come, plus or minus, how are they going to feel about financing the after EK careers of former (tired and pi$$ed off) pilots? How is this to be regulated? Who begins to decide whether my long lasting hearing loss is more important than Joe Blogg's finger amputation or John Does' severe fatigue?
I have to admit that my preference is for a fully regulated insurance scheme. I am sure Top Cover is not perfect, but given the circumstances of our employment, they give me greater assurance. It is true the coverage has decreased to 5 years from what it was previously until age 55. That was a major blow. I have approached other major insurance companies for a comparable scheme and have been laughed off.
But that is what makes me uneasy about LIPS. I am very certainly no financial guru. What happens to LIPS when the first guy starts claiming? Probably not a lot. But given the exponential growth of the airline and the number of guys we are hiring, can we be sure that any abuse of the system can be properly tackled. Theoretically, we could be in a position of having to fund guys for 20 years or more, and as the numbers increase, will LIPS be able to track these guys for fraudulent claims effectively? Expecting this from two appointed people is a bit much.
With another thousand pilots to come, plus or minus, how are they going to feel about financing the after EK careers of former (tired and pi$$ed off) pilots? How is this to be regulated? Who begins to decide whether my long lasting hearing loss is more important than Joe Blogg's finger amputation or John Does' severe fatigue?
Join Date: May 2007
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Is it true that EK have pulled the plug on the EPC LIPS salary deductions from next month? Has someone in EK legal finally woken up to the fact that this scheme has been illegally promoted and sold?
Join Date: May 2007
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EGGW and Murrenfan
Because UAE Federal Law No.9 of 1984 says so.
Mr.AB is not a licensed broker and the UAE Ministry of Economy strictly regulates the Insurance industry. Imagine the fraud in this country if they didn't.....
Because UAE Federal Law No.9 of 1984 says so.
Mr.AB is not a licensed broker and the UAE Ministry of Economy strictly regulates the Insurance industry. Imagine the fraud in this country if they didn't.....
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380
I think you'll find that it is the EPC that is pulling the plug on salary deductions and not EK. I'm told a recent consultation with a lawyer has the committee very concerned about their own personal liability in this potential fiasco.
And what ever happened with the promised LIPS report?
I think you'll find that it is the EPC that is pulling the plug on salary deductions and not EK. I'm told a recent consultation with a lawyer has the committee very concerned about their own personal liability in this potential fiasco.
And what ever happened with the promised LIPS report?
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Fellow EK pilots
There's nothing on the EPC site to indicate that monthly payments via EK payroll deduction will no longer continue.
As to the statements posted regarding the overlap betwixt EPC principals and the LIPS principals... if this is true it is disgraceful and should be the subject of prosecution for fraud. This is a very serious allegation and a very serious sitiuation. There will be consequences...
I submit that statements on this thread should be limited to fact, not opinion. I know it's a rumour site, but libel and slander laws are sometimes applied in the UAE. Be very careful. If it turns out that there have been transgressions, I'll be first in line at the lawyers' office and I hope there's a bunch 'a ya there with me... until we have something concrete, let's speak cautiously, lest we find ourselves in hot water...
keep on bloggin' in the free world!
k-o-t-s
There's nothing on the EPC site to indicate that monthly payments via EK payroll deduction will no longer continue.
As to the statements posted regarding the overlap betwixt EPC principals and the LIPS principals... if this is true it is disgraceful and should be the subject of prosecution for fraud. This is a very serious allegation and a very serious sitiuation. There will be consequences...
I submit that statements on this thread should be limited to fact, not opinion. I know it's a rumour site, but libel and slander laws are sometimes applied in the UAE. Be very careful. If it turns out that there have been transgressions, I'll be first in line at the lawyers' office and I hope there's a bunch 'a ya there with me... until we have something concrete, let's speak cautiously, lest we find ourselves in hot water...
keep on bloggin' in the free world!
k-o-t-s