Emirates EK201 to JFK - 3 Man crew again!
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Emirates EK201 to JFK - 3 Man crew again!
I just read JFK is again 3 crew only, latest DEP is at 0811 local time, after that is discretion.
Hope you guys don't go into discretion out of home base, because then they have to revert to 4 man crew.
I've never seen the flight leaving on time, they basically plan us in discretion.
keep discovering
Hope you guys don't go into discretion out of home base, because then they have to revert to 4 man crew.
I've never seen the flight leaving on time, they basically plan us in discretion.
keep discovering
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The 8/11 walk
Guys!
For those of us "fortunate enough" to be employed by the great airline Emirates...
As last year, we are now moving into the summer schedule for EK201 with a 3 man crew again. (Would you
believe it?) Our great (and invisible boss) ED has somehow found it in himself to sign a memo where it is stated that if we go 11 mins past sched dep time, we will have to go into discretion to get the flight legally off the ground. Can you believe this? How many times have you been told by the dispatcher that "We are just waiting for 40 connecting pax from Dhaka captain" and there by leaving some 15 - 30 mins late? I do not have the statistict for EK201 (does anyone?), but my guess is that half of the flt's leave more than 10 mins late. This means that Mr. ED on behalf of our superb management expects us to use discretion "on a regular basis" to get the flight out of DXB. In my book discretion is used if enroute or downroute it becomes necessary to recover the flt back to DXB, NEVER out of DXB. Do you follow me this far?
I remember "we" put ourselves in this somewhat delicate situation last summer when the FO and augmenting captain decided to offload themselves because they did not want to go into discretion. BUT the operating captain decided to continue and waited for replacement crew. Believe it if you can
My suggestion is as follows: Let's all do the 8/11 walk
What I mean is:
- Call dispatch when you get to CBC to let them know that you HAVE TO depart before 0811, or you can not operate the flt
- When you get to the A/C let the dispatcher know that you HAVE TO depart before 0811, or you can not operate the flt
- When you pass dep time of 0800 let the dispatcher know that he WILL HAVE TO close the flt and let the 40 connecting pax form Dhaka stay in DXB
- OR do the 8/11 walk. Ie get out of your seats, pack up and go home!
But guys, please let dispatch know what your plan is in advance, and please strike an accord with your fellow flt deck crew members as soon as you get to CBC. We all walk!
Mar Salaama,
BirdieOnFirst
For those of us "fortunate enough" to be employed by the great airline Emirates...
As last year, we are now moving into the summer schedule for EK201 with a 3 man crew again. (Would you
believe it?) Our great (and invisible boss) ED has somehow found it in himself to sign a memo where it is stated that if we go 11 mins past sched dep time, we will have to go into discretion to get the flight legally off the ground. Can you believe this? How many times have you been told by the dispatcher that "We are just waiting for 40 connecting pax from Dhaka captain" and there by leaving some 15 - 30 mins late? I do not have the statistict for EK201 (does anyone?), but my guess is that half of the flt's leave more than 10 mins late. This means that Mr. ED on behalf of our superb management expects us to use discretion "on a regular basis" to get the flight out of DXB. In my book discretion is used if enroute or downroute it becomes necessary to recover the flt back to DXB, NEVER out of DXB. Do you follow me this far?I remember "we" put ourselves in this somewhat delicate situation last summer when the FO and augmenting captain decided to offload themselves because they did not want to go into discretion. BUT the operating captain decided to continue and waited for replacement crew. Believe it if you can
My suggestion is as follows: Let's all do the 8/11 walk
What I mean is:
- Call dispatch when you get to CBC to let them know that you HAVE TO depart before 0811, or you can not operate the flt
- When you get to the A/C let the dispatcher know that you HAVE TO depart before 0811, or you can not operate the flt
- When you pass dep time of 0800 let the dispatcher know that he WILL HAVE TO close the flt and let the 40 connecting pax form Dhaka stay in DXB
- OR do the 8/11 walk. Ie get out of your seats, pack up and go home!
But guys, please let dispatch know what your plan is in advance, and please strike an accord with your fellow flt deck crew members as soon as you get to CBC. We all walk!
Mar Salaama,
BirdieOnFirst
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Dear Mr. Ed aka TCE, TCAS and TCM (murray)
I promise from the bottom of my heart I will nevva evva go into discretion out of DXB under no circumstances.
I promise from the bottom of my heart I will nevva evva go into discretion out of DXB under no circumstances.
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Sounds like you guys are not exactly known for your discretion.....
So what is the difference in summer/winter block time that makes it okay to plan 3 crew?
It must be like a swing from 100kt headwind to 100kt tailwind, shaving off 4hrs of flight time... what are you lads whinging about?!?!?!
The FOM doesn't say you can't use discretion out of Dubai. I think it used to, though, or was that just something I dreamed up once in some wonderful fantasy..???
So what is the difference in summer/winter block time that makes it okay to plan 3 crew?
It must be like a swing from 100kt headwind to 100kt tailwind, shaving off 4hrs of flight time... what are you lads whinging about?!?!?!
The FOM doesn't say you can't use discretion out of Dubai. I think it used to, though, or was that just something I dreamed up once in some wonderful fantasy..???
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Discretion as I know it is: after taking into account all the facts and information available you, you forsee no detrimental impact on safety, and believe the flight can continue without compromise.
It's one thing if you have been on duty a significant amount of time and have virtually completed the original itinary and are just trying to terminate the flight with the least detrimental impact on the operation due to unforseen delays.
It's completely another to depart home base with a 13hour plus time to destination. I hardly could see someone re-evaluating their decision to commence the flight to JFK utilising the "discretion" card, and then divert into Gander because at the "planned" duty's expiration time you deemed it unsuitable to continue.
Let's get real. For those that depart DXB using "discretion" you have already made up your mind you will arrive in JFK. In reality you have probably not reasonably taken into account the other crew members (cabin crew included), and in all likelyhood have an alternate agenda (overtime perhaps??).
If it's 8am. Happy flying
I'm not clarvoyant enough to try it after 8:11 though.
It's one thing if you have been on duty a significant amount of time and have virtually completed the original itinary and are just trying to terminate the flight with the least detrimental impact on the operation due to unforseen delays.
It's completely another to depart home base with a 13hour plus time to destination. I hardly could see someone re-evaluating their decision to commence the flight to JFK utilising the "discretion" card, and then divert into Gander because at the "planned" duty's expiration time you deemed it unsuitable to continue.
Let's get real. For those that depart DXB using "discretion" you have already made up your mind you will arrive in JFK. In reality you have probably not reasonably taken into account the other crew members (cabin crew included), and in all likelyhood have an alternate agenda (overtime perhaps??).
If it's 8am. Happy flying
I'm not clarvoyant enough to try it after 8:11 though.
Last edited by Outta Heresoon; 9th May 2006 at 03:30.
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Be warned gents, while its easy to talk tough here, I would almost guarantee that the first Commander to walk off the flight at 0811 will be hung out to dry, keelhauled no less, and definately NO Bonus next year 
.
Unfortunately it is legal to use discretion departing Dubai and unless there is a Meteor shower forecast to hit JFK at your ETA then your going to be standing on very thin ice with this management.
Best idea is to just blame the F/O entirely and tell AAR that modern day CRM just took the final decision away from the Commander entirely..... 
.Unfortunately it is legal to use discretion departing Dubai and unless there is a Meteor shower forecast to hit JFK at your ETA then your going to be standing on very thin ice with this management.
Best idea is to just blame the F/O entirely and tell AAR that modern day CRM just took the final decision away from the Commander entirely.....
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Bounce...... Bounce......Bounce.......
Only thing I have scene more rubbery than Flight Time Limitations in Emirates has been the Michelin Rubber ManA Variation is a normal Flight Time Period stretched now with Discretion on top of a Variation you are stretching something that has all ready been stretched.....usually something breaks when this happens however the commercial reality in EK is that FTL are applied in a way that would make the Rubber Man proud.
Probing deeper you can explain EK Senior Management's lack of enthusiasm to apply FTL's as they are inversely related to the size of the numeration package that all receive by coming in under budget.
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just look at the portal..over the last month half of the flights departed after 0811. EK are really taking the piss once again.
If one of us has a prob enroute are the company going to turn around and say "its ok...we planned you into discretion, we'll support your actions" or will it be " well sorry you're fired, you should know that you can't depart knowing you were planned into discretion. what were you thinkng"
the other option is take 6 tonnes extra and go high speed then there is no problem.
EK 201 in theory has priority with atc, however they don't seem to know it. last time I operated 201 we had a taxying time of 27 mins...
Next they will combine the patterns and give us 18hrs in New York.
keep discovering.
If one of us has a prob enroute are the company going to turn around and say "its ok...we planned you into discretion, we'll support your actions" or will it be " well sorry you're fired, you should know that you can't depart knowing you were planned into discretion. what were you thinkng"
the other option is take 6 tonnes extra and go high speed then there is no problem.
EK 201 in theory has priority with atc, however they don't seem to know it. last time I operated 201 we had a taxying time of 27 mins...
Next they will combine the patterns and give us 18hrs in New York.
keep discovering.
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Last year I asked for a 4th pilot, was told there was none, so we all went home. The company knows they can't force you to go, if they would have punished me I would have seen them at an american or european court. The company said latest DEP time is 0811 what else you need to decide to go home? A FTL limit is like max EGT you don't go over it.
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Absolutely correct Zomp.
Even if you get the "so you're telling me you won't go into discretion" pressure from the SMNC (who all have an expectation BTW, for you to use discretion), or the "I'll put us on a conference call with TCAS & BM"; don't buckle.
Get another FO or go home. You've got another two pilots who should be backing you up on this.
Remember it's called "CAPTAIN'S DISCRETION" for a reason. LL will back you on this. No one else has the responsibility to go into discretion apart from you. If you F$$K up because you have, do you really think the management will back you up?
I'll leave that answer open.........
Even if you get the "so you're telling me you won't go into discretion" pressure from the SMNC (who all have an expectation BTW, for you to use discretion), or the "I'll put us on a conference call with TCAS & BM"; don't buckle.
Get another FO or go home. You've got another two pilots who should be backing you up on this.
Remember it's called "CAPTAIN'S DISCRETION" for a reason. LL will back you on this. No one else has the responsibility to go into discretion apart from you. If you F$$K up because you have, do you really think the management will back you up?
I'll leave that answer open.........
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Well Zomp we should all be like you and get off at 0811!!!!!! But the honest truth is that we as pilots are our own worst enemy. We are wankers and scared of TCAS and little ED.
Like TCAS puts it: "we are just trying to keep you legal guys". Bull and crap. The truth is that EK push push push and push and they get away with it because 90 % of the pilots are scared to speak up.
Take for example the ICN flight with 2 crew in the winter. It is illegal as F... Who has so far parked it in Seoul ??. Flight time 10:20 with CI999 and low level. Taxi out 17 min and taxi in 8 min. Max FDP 11:30. We still fly it and Tcas and little ED know it.
We should all pitch in and help when things occasionally goes wrong and we need to use discretion but if EK uses discretion in their planning like the 201 and 322 something is wrong and it has to be stopped.
Like TCAS puts it: "we are just trying to keep you legal guys". Bull and crap. The truth is that EK push push push and push and they get away with it because 90 % of the pilots are scared to speak up.
Take for example the ICN flight with 2 crew in the winter. It is illegal as F... Who has so far parked it in Seoul ??. Flight time 10:20 with CI999 and low level. Taxi out 17 min and taxi in 8 min. Max FDP 11:30. We still fly it and Tcas and little ED know it.
We should all pitch in and help when things occasionally goes wrong and we need to use discretion but if EK uses discretion in their planning like the 201 and 322 something is wrong and it has to be stopped.
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Just a thought about discretion.
Am I right in thinking that every discretion report will be audited and eventually seen by the GCAA. Therefore, as the GCAA are starting to get fairly rigid in their rules. The idea would be to continually subject a discretion report for this flight.
What this will create is a false schedule for EK. Therefore forcing the EK to make the flight schedule legal. In Europe if any flight continually went into discretion then the ruling CAA would ensure the scedule would be changed to a more accurate one.
So my advice would be to do the flight and subject the discretion report. It is totally legal out of DXB. This way no one has to skate on thin ice.
Am I right in thinking that every discretion report will be audited and eventually seen by the GCAA. Therefore, as the GCAA are starting to get fairly rigid in their rules. The idea would be to continually subject a discretion report for this flight.
What this will create is a false schedule for EK. Therefore forcing the EK to make the flight schedule legal. In Europe if any flight continually went into discretion then the ruling CAA would ensure the scedule would be changed to a more accurate one.
So my advice would be to do the flight and subject the discretion report. It is totally legal out of DXB. This way no one has to skate on thin ice.
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Uplink,
it's you discretion, they will not punish you, if a few 201 get cancelled they will change it to 4 crew.
But I understand that your way is a good excuse for not sticking your head out, let the others do the job.
it's you discretion, they will not punish you, if a few 201 get cancelled they will change it to 4 crew.
But I understand that your way is a good excuse for not sticking your head out, let the others do the job.
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This is a fairly easy one guys. Don't play the discretion card. Just inform Ops when you reach CBC that if you go past 8:11 you will be waiting for another pilot in order to comply with FTL's. If they can't find another pilot it is now their problem. Cancelling a flight should never be an issue. Unless of course they don't have any standby coverage. And who's fault would that be? Not ours. Pretty hard to pin the blame on us if it is shown that the flight was cancelled due to lack of standby availability.
I agree with zomp. You may get a fair amount of pressure over the phone, but nothing will happen from a disciplinary point of view. Believe me these guys have been in court in the UK so many times now for unfair dismissal, they will not go down that road again. Unless they change the FOM, Captains discretion is just that. I doubt that the company would win that one even in a Dubai court.
I personally know a captain who refused to go into discretion on his very first flight as captain here. What was the outcome? They changed his crew onto another flight. No tea and biscuits. These guys will try and bully you into doing it, but in the end they are always going to back down, provided you have your facts straight.
Remember always, it is their business and operational plan that assumes the risk of cancelled flights. They accept the rules and publish them in the FOM. It is up to us to apply the rules, and up to them to deal with the disruption that it causes. Don't forget also that this is a direct product of the companies deliberate decision to operate with insufficient pilot numbers to meet the operational plan. All of this is of their own doing, and it has been going on for years. They know the risk, they accept it. It is not for us to put our licence on the line in order to try and make their flawed operational plan work.
The seoul case is an example of bad planning, but also a situation where additional crews are not available, so the only option is discretion or cancelling the flight. This in my opinion where discretion is meant to be used. Not out of Dubai where extra crew SHOULD be available.
I agree with zomp. You may get a fair amount of pressure over the phone, but nothing will happen from a disciplinary point of view. Believe me these guys have been in court in the UK so many times now for unfair dismissal, they will not go down that road again. Unless they change the FOM, Captains discretion is just that. I doubt that the company would win that one even in a Dubai court.
I personally know a captain who refused to go into discretion on his very first flight as captain here. What was the outcome? They changed his crew onto another flight. No tea and biscuits. These guys will try and bully you into doing it, but in the end they are always going to back down, provided you have your facts straight.
Remember always, it is their business and operational plan that assumes the risk of cancelled flights. They accept the rules and publish them in the FOM. It is up to us to apply the rules, and up to them to deal with the disruption that it causes. Don't forget also that this is a direct product of the companies deliberate decision to operate with insufficient pilot numbers to meet the operational plan. All of this is of their own doing, and it has been going on for years. They know the risk, they accept it. It is not for us to put our licence on the line in order to try and make their flawed operational plan work.
The seoul case is an example of bad planning, but also a situation where additional crews are not available, so the only option is discretion or cancelling the flight. This in my opinion where discretion is meant to be used. Not out of Dubai where extra crew SHOULD be available.
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I can't believe they are doing the 3 man JFK again, last summer the times i flew the 201 it never left on time. I would be suprised if they can average a 30 minute delay this summer with the state of the airport. I think it will be hard to get the F/O's to do the 8/11 walk with their upgrades just around the corner however from a legal point of view you are on solid ground. The FAA would just love to hear about such incidents.
I thought ED might be different but he seems to have the robotic tendencies of TCAS et al.
I thought ED might be different but he seems to have the robotic tendencies of TCAS et al.
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In the light of the coming 205/206 service to JFK via HAM, does any of you have any knowledge wether there will be a crew change at EDDH ?
Both 773ERs will meet there at neighbouring gates and do have nearly similar STAīs and STDīs...
Both 773ERs will meet there at neighbouring gates and do have nearly similar STAīs and STDīs...