Be Careful What You Wish For.
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GoForIt,
No the paycheck never did bounce or was late. It was though, in a 6 month period 53% less than it had been. And in October of last year they took another 18% pay cut. In 1994 we were within 1 week from running out of cash (that was from our ceo and wall street) before BA invested 450 million dollars in U. This is a company that in one year lost 1.4 billion dollars. There was never any stability. We had pilots furloughed for 8 years and were recalled only to be furloughed again 3 years later. 3 times in my career I was displaced from the left seat back to the right.
Public education in the states is free and depending on where you live it is good or crap. Where I live is was crap. I was spending $15,000 a year for school.
I was paying $400 a month for health insurance that required me to go only to the "in network" doctors, that were hit or miss. We did have a great family doctor.
You are right I could have lived in base instead of cummuting. Unfortunately in my career at U, I changed bases 12 times, only 4 by choice. The other times I was displaced. How many times do you think I should make my kids change schools and friends? And as soon as I move and get settled, I wiould be displaced again. And yes your 401k can not be terminated, but it may have your company stock in it that is deems worthless in bankruptcy.
I was not furloughed, I resigned.
Here are some good things about EK. I am on the AB so a Boeing comparison would be worthless. I work 12-14 days a month and get 90-95 hours in my top 3 bid months. That is overtime in most months. With the overtime, and tax free, I am now taking home more than my class mates at U and working 5-6 days a month less. Add in the other benefits and I am even more money ahead. Depending on the package adjustment that will take place in May, I may be money ahead of my classmants with no overtime. Ghostflyer makes a very valid point regarding tha package. It is not even coming close to keeping up with inflation. the new joiner of today has about 50% less spending power than those who joined 10 years ago. That is something that EK will eventually have to address. It takes 20+years to upgrade at U and that will be to the 737 as a reserve. Here is is currently 3.5 years on the bus to the 330 and you are on reserve 1 out of 10 months. The route structure is great at EK. I very seldom have to fly a short sector, and am overnighting at some amazing places. I already mentioned the health care and education. I am home so much more now than before, that I am once again nearly a full time dad. I can come home from a trip in the morning, (flying all night is one of the drawbacks at EK by the way) get the kids off to school and then go to bed. We can do almost anything here that we can do in the states except eat at taco bell (there are none), and listen to a country western music station. (those either). My wife does not have to work because of the financial unstability of my job, (first time in 15 years) and she is loving being a full time mom.
Lastly, I think it would be a mistake to turn down the interview,(unless it is for a DEC). You would be making an uneducated decision. Come for the interview, check it, out ask questions, meet other pilots and get their prospective. Then you will have learned enough to decide. I would never make a decistion on reading the posts on pprune. I also have said on other posts that I would never leave a left seat position to come here and that is still true. (unless you are trying to aviod an ex or something)
gj18457:
TP told me to not expect the accelerated command and to plan on 3 years. I did not believe him!
Regards,
330 Man
No the paycheck never did bounce or was late. It was though, in a 6 month period 53% less than it had been. And in October of last year they took another 18% pay cut. In 1994 we were within 1 week from running out of cash (that was from our ceo and wall street) before BA invested 450 million dollars in U. This is a company that in one year lost 1.4 billion dollars. There was never any stability. We had pilots furloughed for 8 years and were recalled only to be furloughed again 3 years later. 3 times in my career I was displaced from the left seat back to the right.
Public education in the states is free and depending on where you live it is good or crap. Where I live is was crap. I was spending $15,000 a year for school.
I was paying $400 a month for health insurance that required me to go only to the "in network" doctors, that were hit or miss. We did have a great family doctor.
You are right I could have lived in base instead of cummuting. Unfortunately in my career at U, I changed bases 12 times, only 4 by choice. The other times I was displaced. How many times do you think I should make my kids change schools and friends? And as soon as I move and get settled, I wiould be displaced again. And yes your 401k can not be terminated, but it may have your company stock in it that is deems worthless in bankruptcy.
I was not furloughed, I resigned.
Here are some good things about EK. I am on the AB so a Boeing comparison would be worthless. I work 12-14 days a month and get 90-95 hours in my top 3 bid months. That is overtime in most months. With the overtime, and tax free, I am now taking home more than my class mates at U and working 5-6 days a month less. Add in the other benefits and I am even more money ahead. Depending on the package adjustment that will take place in May, I may be money ahead of my classmants with no overtime. Ghostflyer makes a very valid point regarding tha package. It is not even coming close to keeping up with inflation. the new joiner of today has about 50% less spending power than those who joined 10 years ago. That is something that EK will eventually have to address. It takes 20+years to upgrade at U and that will be to the 737 as a reserve. Here is is currently 3.5 years on the bus to the 330 and you are on reserve 1 out of 10 months. The route structure is great at EK. I very seldom have to fly a short sector, and am overnighting at some amazing places. I already mentioned the health care and education. I am home so much more now than before, that I am once again nearly a full time dad. I can come home from a trip in the morning, (flying all night is one of the drawbacks at EK by the way) get the kids off to school and then go to bed. We can do almost anything here that we can do in the states except eat at taco bell (there are none), and listen to a country western music station. (those either). My wife does not have to work because of the financial unstability of my job, (first time in 15 years) and she is loving being a full time mom.
Lastly, I think it would be a mistake to turn down the interview,(unless it is for a DEC). You would be making an uneducated decision. Come for the interview, check it, out ask questions, meet other pilots and get their prospective. Then you will have learned enough to decide. I would never make a decistion on reading the posts on pprune. I also have said on other posts that I would never leave a left seat position to come here and that is still true. (unless you are trying to aviod an ex or something)
gj18457:
TP told me to not expect the accelerated command and to plan on 3 years. I did not believe him!
Regards,
330 Man
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330 Man,
I have no idea which airline you are working for even if you are 330 only. I have not had more than 13 days off in a month as a Captain unless I had leave. I am currently averaging 9.6 days off per month for the last 6. This month my roster includes:
None of the flights that I wanted, none of the days off I requested and a bunch of turn rounds - starts ranging from 2200 to 0400, 2 ULH flights, 1 LH flight, 8 Days Off, all for 100hrs block.
The worst thing is that the rosters are often changed after leaving the computer. I had 3 turnrounds manually inserted during my last top bid month and got called on everyday off to see if I'd work.
I have no problem with you being generally positive, I try to be, but the fact is that if you check out the rosters of your co-workers they suck for 3 months out of 5. Some of the 340 rosters that are flying about at the moment are horrific.
Cerberus
I work 12-14 days a month and get 90-95 hours in my top 3 bid months.
None of the flights that I wanted, none of the days off I requested and a bunch of turn rounds - starts ranging from 2200 to 0400, 2 ULH flights, 1 LH flight, 8 Days Off, all for 100hrs block.
The worst thing is that the rosters are often changed after leaving the computer. I had 3 turnrounds manually inserted during my last top bid month and got called on everyday off to see if I'd work.
I have no problem with you being generally positive, I try to be, but the fact is that if you check out the rosters of your co-workers they suck for 3 months out of 5. Some of the 340 rosters that are flying about at the moment are horrific.
Cerberus
Last edited by Cerberus; 27th Mar 2006 at 09:56.
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Cerberus,
I could only respond to GoForIt from my own prospective, not those of my co workers. April is a middle bid month for me and I have 14 off days, 2 rest days,for a total of just over 92 hours. In the top 2 months I will get 2 JFK's and work 12 days. I to did not get anything that were top choices, but I put in so many choices that everything I got I bid even though they were low priority. Remember that this was my middle month and yes I am 340.
Hey Tartan Guy, do not forget you also have 15 miss universe contestants trying to serve you first class meals!
Regards,
330 Man
I could only respond to GoForIt from my own prospective, not those of my co workers. April is a middle bid month for me and I have 14 off days, 2 rest days,for a total of just over 92 hours. In the top 2 months I will get 2 JFK's and work 12 days. I to did not get anything that were top choices, but I put in so many choices that everything I got I bid even though they were low priority. Remember that this was my middle month and yes I am 340.
Hey Tartan Guy, do not forget you also have 15 miss universe contestants trying to serve you first class meals!
Regards,
330 Man
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What promised 3% pay rise? Are you referring to our yearly DISCRETIONARY incrument. Please don't ever consider this part of a pay increase cos it ain't! This is something that any half decent Airline gives you automatically as a form of seniority pay. This is your reward for another years hard graft over someone just joining. And as for the 'promised' bit................the clue is in bold above!
Harry
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Typhoon.It nice to hear you are so content.The weather line is getting a bit stale. Tell about how nice the weather is next month.I thought you actually had to resign from your previous employer to be able to be employed by EK.So how can someone actually wait out his furlough?I think both you and 330 man have to tell us all where you are getting your happy pills from.
While your at the races put a bet on for me.
While your at the races put a bet on for me.
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it's actually funny to observe the inconsistency of postings. on one hand ek is treated as passthrough for most carreers, but the same guys scream for unionlike behaviour of those still to join. others bash dec's as scabs and ask for bets how long they themselves will take to leave ek, ..... to enter another outfit as a dec most certainly. postings, mostly positive ones, are ridiculised as "newbee rosies" when it's poster has a entry date a few weeks later than the basher.
ek has become such a disorganised carrier in crewing that it makes absolutely no sense bashing ourselves among oldies, newbees, wannabees and even dec's. the busiest departement is recruitement and it will stay that way as long as his highness keeps his eyes wide shut and leaves the totally incompetent people in place who are responsible for the erosion of the attraction of our package and working conditions.
better turn your focus on that.
ttn
ek has become such a disorganised carrier in crewing that it makes absolutely no sense bashing ourselves among oldies, newbees, wannabees and even dec's. the busiest departement is recruitement and it will stay that way as long as his highness keeps his eyes wide shut and leaves the totally incompetent people in place who are responsible for the erosion of the attraction of our package and working conditions.
better turn your focus on that.
ttn
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do not forget you also have 15 miss universe contestants trying to serve you first class meals!
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Originally Posted by 330 Man
Lastly, I think it would be a mistake to turn down the interview,(unless it is for a DEC).
Regards,
330 Man
Regards,
330 Man
Yes, my interview is for a DEC position. And yes, I have a command in the states at the moment. My company was in deep trouble when I applied, and it looked like I might have to take another job. It has recovered now, but I'm still not as optimistic about the future here as I'd like to be. But for a variety of reasons, I don't think I'll be interested in a DEC position at Emirates. And it isn't because I think it is morally wrong to take that job.
I have been an ALPA member for years, and have worked in both union and non-union airlines. I'll take a unionized airline any day just for the knowledge that my work rules are fixed, even if there were no other benefits. I've even been part of an organization drive to bring a union into a non-union carrier, and I held a union leadership position for a while, but I see both the good and bad sides of the whole union issue. I see them as a necessary evil in the airline industry.
Having said all that, I disagree with your comparison of DECs with scabs. They are not even in the same category. I was a lowly 19 passenger turboprop pilot when Eastern tried to hire scabs. I never considered it for a minute. I would never cross a picket line. But the DEC issue is totally different.
Let me illustrate. If I left aviation, there are a lot of industries where I could walk in to a job that would put me right into management, or at least train me on the fast track to management due to my education and leadership history. Of course, there would be a lot of people at the lower levels with a lot more seniority than me, but they would probably not even think twice about the fact that their company hired someone from the outside for a management job. That is just the way it is done in most industries. The best jobs don't automatically go to the people with the highest seniority. Indeed, the same is true in the airlines. We don't assume that the next Chief pilot will be chosen on seniority. And since we're used to that, we don't cry foul when they choose the chief pilot out of seniority, or maybe even from outside the company.
And when you took the job at Emirates, you knew that you were going to work for a non-union carrier, and you knew that they can do anything they want. There was no guarantee that upgrades would be strictly by seniority. You also knew that unions are not even an option in Dubai, and if you've been around this industry for a while, you also knew that any airline that doesn't have a union has a mysterious way of changing the work rules over time, without asking your opinion. You accepted that. You can't take your American ALPA expectations with you when you go to Emirates. The airline hires DECs. So be it. That doesn't make the guy who took the DEC job a scab or anything like a scab any more than the fact that your old airline moved guys up into management by their own choice, not by seniority. When you choose to step into a job where there is no union and can never be a union, you shouldn't take your union expectations with you.
My company was hiring when USAir was furloughing, and we got some of your guys. Most were great. But I do recall hearing from the trainers that there were a few who couldn't shed the "well we did it this way at USAir" mentality. They were gently instructed that they weren't at USAir any more, and this is the way we do it at brand X. I was told that a couple guys just didn't get it, to the point where they were let go before they got through training. Now of course that does not reflect badly on you or USAir in general. There are a couple bad apples in every bunch. We all know that when you go to a new carrier, you do it their way.
Well, you crossed the ocean to take a job at a non-union airline that hires DECs. There is no reason for you to take the old USAir/ALPA mentality on upgrade by strict seniority with you. The guys who are hired as DECs are not scabs any more than the management people they hire off the street. It is unfortunate that the management has taken that approach, and they will pay for it in the long run. They are out of step with the rest of the world. But that is their choice. And anyone who chooses to take a job with an airline that can never have a union has to accept the realities that go with that. If you want to vent at anybody, your management is the ones you should vent at.
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I think Tartan boy has lost the plot , there is many other packages around that would kill Emirates. Take CX for example, at least they do transition upgrades and pay is 50-70% more.
Sia has similar problems but you can earn the same money as in EK for a lot less work and better layovers.
What is the good of tax free if you only earn half as much thats the same as a 50% tax anyway.
If i was senior enough to hold onto a command in the USA theres no way id go to EK , even if it was a 737-200 command , home is a very big draw card and the further you move from it the harder it will draw you back in.
Sia has similar problems but you can earn the same money as in EK for a lot less work and better layovers.
What is the good of tax free if you only earn half as much thats the same as a 50% tax anyway.
If i was senior enough to hold onto a command in the USA theres no way id go to EK , even if it was a 737-200 command , home is a very big draw card and the further you move from it the harder it will draw you back in.
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Originally Posted by Tartan guy
e. Remember, EK has never had a major hull loss in it's entire history.....can't say that about 99% of the major airlines in the world. !
TG
TG
Your statement is the most ridiculous thing I've seen on this website.
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TG,
I hope your course handicap is good, because I would stick to golf if I were you.
Any reasonable argument would include a look under the surface and there is a LOT out there just waiting to happen. And I hope I'm on a day off or preferably with another airline when (not if) it does.
I hope your course handicap is good, because I would stick to golf if I were you.
Any reasonable argument would include a look under the surface and there is a LOT out there just waiting to happen. And I hope I'm on a day off or preferably with another airline when (not if) it does.
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GoFoIt says: "And when you took the job at Emirates, you knew that you were going to work for a non-union carrier, and you knew that they can do anything they want. There was no guarantee that upgrades would be strictly by seniority. You also knew that unions are not even an option in Dubai, and if you've been around this industry for a while, you also knew that any airline that doesn't have a union has a mysterious way of changing the work rules over time, without asking your opinion. You accepted that. You can't take your American ALPA expectations with you when you go to Emirates. The airline hires DECs. So be it. That doesn't make the guy who took the DEC job a scab or anything like a scab any more than the fact that your old airline moved guys up into management by their own choice, not by seniority. When you choose to step into a job where there is no union and can never be a union, you shouldn't take your union expectations with you"
You can justify it any way you want but when you leapfrog over qualified and experienced F/Os who were told to expect a command in X number of years, you are a SCAB in my book.
The company can do whatever they want---you are correct in saying so---EK is not unionized---applicants can do whatever they want----just because Ek is not unionized does not make it morally right to take the job as a D.E.C.
By the way, Ek has traditionally upgraded from the right seat. Hiring D.E.Cs has not been the norm over the companys' history.
330
You can justify it any way you want but when you leapfrog over qualified and experienced F/Os who were told to expect a command in X number of years, you are a SCAB in my book.
The company can do whatever they want---you are correct in saying so---EK is not unionized---applicants can do whatever they want----just because Ek is not unionized does not make it morally right to take the job as a D.E.C.
By the way, Ek has traditionally upgraded from the right seat. Hiring D.E.Cs has not been the norm over the companys' history.
330
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Minor Correction Top Gun
Hey T.G.
T.G. you lost the plot trying to score points with the No Hull lost... we all know how series an incident this was.
Would be disappointing to know if you hold a Management Position in the corporate structure as your comments are not constructive.
gj18457 your comments about typhoonpilot are miss directed typhoonpilot's postings make interesting reading and do provide a balanced view with out going over the top. So what if he posts on other web boards.
Topical subject but the DEC's are not Scabs. I think the company are shafting well qualified competent FO's all ready here in EK but it's mis directed taking it out on the DEC's that plan to apply or are in the process of applying.
Would these same people complaining about DEC's leave EK as a Captain only to take up a position at another Airline as a First Officer rather than a DEC?
The EK Management on the other hand have handled this subject very poorly and effective communication and dialog that was two way would have helped many understand the situation in more detail.
EK has never had a major hull loss in it's entire history.....can't say that about 99% of the major airlines in the world
What's more disturbing is that we as Pilots in EK have to go to an Internet Chat Forum to download the full Accident Report.
Does this not indicate to the thinking person that there is still major room for improvement?
I would not wish a hull loss on any one yet your statement lacks a depth of maturity and an oversight on the past and present climate in EK.Does this not indicate to the thinking person that there is still major room for improvement?
Would be disappointing to know if you hold a Management Position in the corporate structure as your comments are not constructive.
gj18457 your comments about typhoonpilot are miss directed typhoonpilot's postings make interesting reading and do provide a balanced view with out going over the top. So what if he posts on other web boards.
Topical subject but the DEC's are not Scabs. I think the company are shafting well qualified competent FO's all ready here in EK but it's mis directed taking it out on the DEC's that plan to apply or are in the process of applying.
Would these same people complaining about DEC's leave EK as a Captain only to take up a position at another Airline as a First Officer rather than a DEC?
The EK Management on the other hand have handled this subject very poorly and effective communication and dialog that was two way would have helped many understand the situation in more detail.
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EK has a long history of hiring DEC's. Do your homework.They even had the requirements published on their recrutement web page years ago. It's no secret they have always had the intention to hire DEC's if required, and management determines that requirement not the pilots. I agree that there are fully qualified pilots waiting in the wings for a chance at the left seat and I believe all reasonably qualified F/O's should at least be offered the chance before going outside the company, but remember it's their party here and if you've been in the ME for any length of time you will know how they play "their game". You are strictly a commodity necessary to achieve their goals. They have no moral conviction to you. I do not consider DEC's as scabs. I'm sorry. This is not the unionised company you may think it is.
Thread Starter
Uplock
Hard to see how typhoon pilots' attack on his colleagues can be described as balanced. An apology would be more appropriate than his continued defence of the indefensible. He has set himself up as a Godfather figure and appears to take great satisfaction in playing that role.
As mentioned by 330 heavy, DECs have not been the norm in the companys history.
In the early 90s the then Head of Flight Operations (ex BA) went into print stating that he was the last DEC that Emirates would employ, and EK remained non DEC until 2004 and was a better place for it.
As an employer EK was seen to be far closer to Cathay than say Korean. The opposite is now true.
Recent posters on the Middle East forum include a long time EK Captain who is now an F/O with Virgin and another who is looking forward to his command at Dragonair having been there for around 3 years. Both very positive about their move. Several have made the move to Singapore as DECs but no feedback there as yet.
Can't think of anyone who in moving has bypassed a large group of suitably qualified First Officers' as is the case at Emirates.
Year on year, in real terms, we are being paid less for doing more work.
This will not be apparent to the recent joiners, whose issues are more likely to be related to diminishing command prospects, but is very apparent to the 5 year onwards group.
Yet, year on year the company announces increasing profits (no complaints there), but the only tangible benefit to the employees is that presumably our jobs remain secure.
Be aware that the United States position on Iran could remove that security very suddenly and very effectively. Alerts from the embassies, sometimes suggesting removal of families from the area have been an occasional part of life in the Gulf since 1990.
Certainly, 330 man and tartan guy seem very satisfied, but they are very much in the honeymoon period and still carrying baggage from their past, this by their own admission.
Quite surprised at the extreme division of opinions posted here and my sympathies go out to anyone attempting to make a decision about joining EK based on this thread.
At least there is clearly no support for DECs other than from a couple of posters who are already in the left seat and not keen to give it up.
Hard to see how typhoon pilots' attack on his colleagues can be described as balanced. An apology would be more appropriate than his continued defence of the indefensible. He has set himself up as a Godfather figure and appears to take great satisfaction in playing that role.
As mentioned by 330 heavy, DECs have not been the norm in the companys history.
In the early 90s the then Head of Flight Operations (ex BA) went into print stating that he was the last DEC that Emirates would employ, and EK remained non DEC until 2004 and was a better place for it.
As an employer EK was seen to be far closer to Cathay than say Korean. The opposite is now true.
Recent posters on the Middle East forum include a long time EK Captain who is now an F/O with Virgin and another who is looking forward to his command at Dragonair having been there for around 3 years. Both very positive about their move. Several have made the move to Singapore as DECs but no feedback there as yet.
Can't think of anyone who in moving has bypassed a large group of suitably qualified First Officers' as is the case at Emirates.
Year on year, in real terms, we are being paid less for doing more work.
This will not be apparent to the recent joiners, whose issues are more likely to be related to diminishing command prospects, but is very apparent to the 5 year onwards group.
Yet, year on year the company announces increasing profits (no complaints there), but the only tangible benefit to the employees is that presumably our jobs remain secure.
Be aware that the United States position on Iran could remove that security very suddenly and very effectively. Alerts from the embassies, sometimes suggesting removal of families from the area have been an occasional part of life in the Gulf since 1990.
Certainly, 330 man and tartan guy seem very satisfied, but they are very much in the honeymoon period and still carrying baggage from their past, this by their own admission.
Quite surprised at the extreme division of opinions posted here and my sympathies go out to anyone attempting to make a decision about joining EK based on this thread.
At least there is clearly no support for DECs other than from a couple of posters who are already in the left seat and not keen to give it up.
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Hard to see how typhoon pilots' attack on his colleagues can be described as balanced. An apology would be more appropriate than his continued defence of the indefensible. He has set himself up as a Godfather figure and appears to take great satisfaction in playing that role.
I am not the Godfather, that is Gillegan
And now, who is attacking who ? I provide information to my friends and fellow pilots from the USA. If that goes against your agenda, that is your problem, not mine.Misery feeds on itself and seems to take on a life of it's own here. EK is not perfect and never will be. There are many things that are brought up here that are very legitimate complaints. Taken in perspective, however, EK is still a pretty good job and life in Dubai isn't half bad.
Typhoonpilot
Thread Starter
Your colleagues, with some obvious exceptions, would disagree with your statement about whether or not they are being attacked, and yes, I am attacking you, but in a gentlemanly way without resort to foul language.
By the way, I wrote 'a Godfather figure', not 'the Godfather'. I am aware that you are not Gillegan, but I wonder if he will appreciate you exposing him on this forum.
Still waiting for an apology.
By the way, I wrote 'a Godfather figure', not 'the Godfather'. I am aware that you are not Gillegan, but I wonder if he will appreciate you exposing him on this forum.
Still waiting for an apology.