Be Careful What You Wish For.
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Just wondering Typhoon how long have you actually been in DXB to make you such a career advisor to our US friends.I cant believe you are actually flying with the same guys I do.The overwhelming concensus is that of sadness and sorrow and many do have valid reasons.Do you actually fly with line pilots?How long did you actually take to get your command in EK?This is not a place for guys who have come from a previous major airline to easily settle in and be happy.You never will be and will have wasted alot of money moving and upset your family.Perhaps single guys will have a ok time for 6 months and then you will get itchy feet and also be upset over many of the policies that will no doubt directly effect you.Even the people from the low cost carriers who want to come obviously haven't done their homework.You have to speak a broad cross section of people not only view pprune to make an informed decision.
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whossorrynow says
"No great expert on the whys and wherefores of the American situation, but didn't they just price themseves out of the job, leaving the door wide open for Jetblue and the other low cost carriers.
Don't suppose they could have done it without the push of the unions, but I doubt that anybody was complaining about being overpaid at the time."
ALPA did a study on the particular airline I worked for and according to their(ALPA) figures, if the pilots would have worked for free, the airline would still have had a cost structure of aprox. 20% more than "break even." While I admit that the unions didn't help matters much, I would never go so as far to say that the pilots are the reason for the sorry state of affairs in the U.S. aviation industry. IMHO it is the mismanagement of the carriers themselves and a large amount of overcapacity of available seats in the U.S. When airlines carry loadfactors of 70 to 80% and are still not profitible, then it is time to look at all factors involved--not just salaries of employees.
whosorrynow also says
"Another Que? What reaction would there have been to the US majors taking DECs? Not that relevant I know, but a thought for the US DEC applicants to take to bed with them"
It would not been tolerated AT ALL in the states and I couldn't agree with you more!!! It is relevant and I for one do not like the process that is taking shape here when D.E.C.s are being recruited ahead of qualified guys who are ALREADY HERE AT EK AND ARE A KNOWN ENTITY!!! The last round of D.E.C.s (for the most part) were a result of a "windfall" of planes that were unexpected. Even at that, there were EK F/Os that were bypassed as a result. This latest batch of D.E.C.s are stepping over F/Os that should be filling the available left seats and I can't imagine that they will be very well received when they turn up.
330
On an different note, typhoonpilot is a real gentleman and would not hesitate to help anyone here at EK who should ever need some support. The bashing he is receiving here just because he tries to present facts and is more positive than most of the other posters is not deserved at all.
"No great expert on the whys and wherefores of the American situation, but didn't they just price themseves out of the job, leaving the door wide open for Jetblue and the other low cost carriers.
Don't suppose they could have done it without the push of the unions, but I doubt that anybody was complaining about being overpaid at the time."
ALPA did a study on the particular airline I worked for and according to their(ALPA) figures, if the pilots would have worked for free, the airline would still have had a cost structure of aprox. 20% more than "break even." While I admit that the unions didn't help matters much, I would never go so as far to say that the pilots are the reason for the sorry state of affairs in the U.S. aviation industry. IMHO it is the mismanagement of the carriers themselves and a large amount of overcapacity of available seats in the U.S. When airlines carry loadfactors of 70 to 80% and are still not profitible, then it is time to look at all factors involved--not just salaries of employees.
whosorrynow also says
"Another Que? What reaction would there have been to the US majors taking DECs? Not that relevant I know, but a thought for the US DEC applicants to take to bed with them"
It would not been tolerated AT ALL in the states and I couldn't agree with you more!!! It is relevant and I for one do not like the process that is taking shape here when D.E.C.s are being recruited ahead of qualified guys who are ALREADY HERE AT EK AND ARE A KNOWN ENTITY!!! The last round of D.E.C.s (for the most part) were a result of a "windfall" of planes that were unexpected. Even at that, there were EK F/Os that were bypassed as a result. This latest batch of D.E.C.s are stepping over F/Os that should be filling the available left seats and I can't imagine that they will be very well received when they turn up.
330
On an different note, typhoonpilot is a real gentleman and would not hesitate to help anyone here at EK who should ever need some support. The bashing he is receiving here just because he tries to present facts and is more positive than most of the other posters is not deserved at all.
Last edited by 330 heavy; 24th Mar 2006 at 03:08.
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Good grief EK Shadow, i can see your a level headed fellow, with a balanced view regards you colleagues. Is that a large McCain oven chip/fry i see on your shoulders. 
Bottom line there are idiots at EK from all over the place, thankfully amongst the pilots they are few.
SyB
Bottom line there are idiots at EK from all over the place, thankfully amongst the pilots they are few.
SyB
Thread Starter
EK Shadow has previously posted using the names Streamline and CAP56.
He was banned from Pprune when using both those handles as he is unable to control his opinions or his language.
He worked for EK back in the 90s but departed under circumstances that have left him with a grudge against Emirates and in particular the EK Clinic.
He now works for a low cost carrier in Europe.
He was banned from Pprune when using both those handles as he is unable to control his opinions or his language.
He worked for EK back in the 90s but departed under circumstances that have left him with a grudge against Emirates and in particular the EK Clinic.
He now works for a low cost carrier in Europe.
Thread Starter
SS
He's well known on the Boeing.
And looking up the page he appears to have been moderated, but he's used to that.
And he answers to his name.
That's a cryptic clue but the solution is still on this page.
He's well known on the Boeing.
And looking up the page he appears to have been moderated, but he's used to that.
And he answers to his name.
That's a cryptic clue but the solution is still on this page.
Last edited by whossorrynow; 24th Mar 2006 at 18:51.
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whossorrynow Says:
The negative feedback is coming from non EK Americans.
The 'sitting on the fence' posts are coming from EK Americans.
The supportive feedback is coming from EK non Americans.
I am not sure how you can tell where anyone is from by posts, (well except for the aussie). We can put any location we want to.
As far as ek shadow posting with other names so what. You are either posting under another name, or you are a very new member of pprune who is acting like a young lion making a name for himself with his eight posts from Delaware.
I will tell you this: You are full of crap if you think I am sitting on any fence.
I am an american at EK that enjoys going to work every day, loves the fact that the paycheck does not bounce and is never late, love the fact that my retirement fund will never be terminated, (been there done that) and for the most part get to fly with some really great and professional people. I take great joy every day watching my kids get a great education that is 90% paid for by EK. I smile every day knowing that the clinic is only a phone call away and that it is staffed by great doctors. I love the fact that I am no longer commuting and that the car picks me up and drops me off for every trip. I have never been accused of sitting on any fence regarding how I feel about this job. I love it! Is it perfect? Hell no! Is there room for improvement? Hell yes! I have been nothing but supportive of Emirates. But I have not been looking through "rose colored glasses" either. In many of my previous posts I have made it clear that your perception of EK is based on the "baggage" that you bring with you. Those of us from Usair have alot of bagage, so we mostly think that EK is a pretty good deal and we enjoy our jobs. No fence in that last statement.
The DEC issue is no different. I agree with 330 heavy that the last dec's were justified because of the 340-300. (I still wonder though, if the 343 was the reason for dec's why then did we hire dec's to the 777?) This new round of DEC's is totally unjustified and is just plain wrong. I would ask all of those Delta/NWA/UAL pilots who are thinking of coming here as DEC's one question. Would you cross a picket line in the states and take the job of another pilot? If the answer is no, I wonder why you would consider coming to EK and taking the job from a very qualified First Officer who is waiting to upgrade? And the only reason he is not upgrading is because we can not attract enough new joiners as F/O's because of the package. If the answer is yes to my previous question then by all means come to EK as a DEC and you will be welcomed as any other SCAB would be, because that is what you will be. Join as a First Officer and pay your dues like the rest of us. It is the only morally acceptable way to come to EK. Hey whossorrynow, I do not think that there was any fence sitting in that paragraph either!
Lastly, I have known Typhoonpilot for a long time. He helped me greatly when I was thinking of joining with his level headed, unbiased information. I then made my own decision. To all of those exploring EK, I believe you can trust what he says. I trust him more than most of the posters here.
But then I am "just another sitting on the fence" American.
Love to all,
330 Man
The negative feedback is coming from non EK Americans.
The 'sitting on the fence' posts are coming from EK Americans.
The supportive feedback is coming from EK non Americans.
I am not sure how you can tell where anyone is from by posts, (well except for the aussie). We can put any location we want to.
As far as ek shadow posting with other names so what. You are either posting under another name, or you are a very new member of pprune who is acting like a young lion making a name for himself with his eight posts from Delaware.
I will tell you this: You are full of crap if you think I am sitting on any fence.
I am an american at EK that enjoys going to work every day, loves the fact that the paycheck does not bounce and is never late, love the fact that my retirement fund will never be terminated, (been there done that) and for the most part get to fly with some really great and professional people. I take great joy every day watching my kids get a great education that is 90% paid for by EK. I smile every day knowing that the clinic is only a phone call away and that it is staffed by great doctors. I love the fact that I am no longer commuting and that the car picks me up and drops me off for every trip. I have never been accused of sitting on any fence regarding how I feel about this job. I love it! Is it perfect? Hell no! Is there room for improvement? Hell yes! I have been nothing but supportive of Emirates. But I have not been looking through "rose colored glasses" either. In many of my previous posts I have made it clear that your perception of EK is based on the "baggage" that you bring with you. Those of us from Usair have alot of bagage, so we mostly think that EK is a pretty good deal and we enjoy our jobs. No fence in that last statement.
The DEC issue is no different. I agree with 330 heavy that the last dec's were justified because of the 340-300. (I still wonder though, if the 343 was the reason for dec's why then did we hire dec's to the 777?) This new round of DEC's is totally unjustified and is just plain wrong. I would ask all of those Delta/NWA/UAL pilots who are thinking of coming here as DEC's one question. Would you cross a picket line in the states and take the job of another pilot? If the answer is no, I wonder why you would consider coming to EK and taking the job from a very qualified First Officer who is waiting to upgrade? And the only reason he is not upgrading is because we can not attract enough new joiners as F/O's because of the package. If the answer is yes to my previous question then by all means come to EK as a DEC and you will be welcomed as any other SCAB would be, because that is what you will be. Join as a First Officer and pay your dues like the rest of us. It is the only morally acceptable way to come to EK. Hey whossorrynow, I do not think that there was any fence sitting in that paragraph either!
Lastly, I have known Typhoonpilot for a long time. He helped me greatly when I was thinking of joining with his level headed, unbiased information. I then made my own decision. To all of those exploring EK, I believe you can trust what he says. I trust him more than most of the posters here.
But then I am "just another sitting on the fence" American.
Love to all,
330 Man
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330 man, yes I do agree with your sentiments on the DEC issue as do many others I am sure.And no you are not a fence sitter although I don't recall anyone calling you one. However Typhoon has an obsession with posting all over aviation forums with rather EK tinted glasses.I believe it is very difficult to offer an informed opinion about EK unless you have been in the company for some time and have been privy to the many changes. It is true that any amount of baggage good or bad will cloud your view. No doubt, compared to your situation in US Airways many of the benefits you now recieve may seem great, however, you have only been here for a short time and you do have to live in a sandpit as a sacrifice to receive these.Tell us what really attracted you to EK? Was it the secure job,the limo pickup or the accellerated command that I'm sure your friend Typhoon pilot told you about?
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At one of the USA recruitment drives pilots were told there would be a requirement for 300-400 captains as well as Airbus positions , nothing about 380 just Airbus.
some F/os asked about upgrades and where told it will be 3 years approx till at least 2012.
To me the figures dont stack up.
some F/os asked about upgrades and where told it will be 3 years approx till at least 2012.
To me the figures dont stack up.
Thread Starter
330 man
Can't argue with your points, but seems to me that you are making what most of the world would consider the norm appear exceptional.
Being paid on time, schooling, medical support. Just how bad is it in the US?
Your DEC dialogue? ....A rare treat. Thanks.
Can't argue with your points, but seems to me that you are making what most of the world would consider the norm appear exceptional.
Being paid on time, schooling, medical support. Just how bad is it in the US?
Your DEC dialogue? ....A rare treat. Thanks.
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330 Man,
You make some well reasoned and well thought out arguments. Perhaps your most important statement is:
EK and Dubai are quite unreal places because few people plan to stay with either for the rest of their lives but many have no idea where they plan to go when they leave. When I first arrived in Dubai all I could see were the fancy buildings, now I just see the sand in between. The traffic has spiralled out of control and lifestyles have deteriorated with the towns growth.
Perspective is interesting, if you had it better and it gets worse you wonder where it will all end. If you have been through the mill with US Air, I can only imagine how good EK must look to you. Imagine how EK looked to the guys in the States when the top guys at the majors were picking up the mega salaries. No one would have come here for all the tea in China. The EK salary is linked to the US Dollar and so there are no exchange rate woes for Americans unlike the other ex-pats.
Now with all the furloughs and problems in the US EK suddenly looks more attractive. But...to the guys that have been here for a while they have seen only a deterioration in the package and worse still, Dubai's inflation has diminished their spending power further in real terms. Someone quoted that an EK first officer earns less in GBP now than in 2000. We all know for sure that the package is eroding more and more rapidly against inflation. The big question that most of us want to know is when will it stop. Trust me, if it continues as it has even guys that are furloughed will cease to see the attraction of EK and Dubai.
Lets be honest here, not one guy that joined the Majors in 1995 expected to have to lower themselves so far as to go to the sandpit. You all thought about how much money you would make in your last few years on the big jets, how big the pension would be and how much money the 401K would yield. Now that the golden goose has been snatched away EK is suddenly attractive but heed the warnings of those that have been here a little longer.
The package is going down the toilet relative to inflation and the working conditions of EK (Airbus) at least are starting to suck big time. If I could work as hard as I did when I joined (84hrs a month) and earn the same in real terms I would still be pretty happy. I can't and I don't! 10 years ago, an EK F/O had a better life style than an EK Captain does now; but its all about perspective or the baggage that you carry with you.
Ghost
You make some well reasoned and well thought out arguments. Perhaps your most important statement is:
I have made it clear that your perception of EK is based on the "baggage" that you bring with you
Perspective is interesting, if you had it better and it gets worse you wonder where it will all end. If you have been through the mill with US Air, I can only imagine how good EK must look to you. Imagine how EK looked to the guys in the States when the top guys at the majors were picking up the mega salaries. No one would have come here for all the tea in China. The EK salary is linked to the US Dollar and so there are no exchange rate woes for Americans unlike the other ex-pats.
Now with all the furloughs and problems in the US EK suddenly looks more attractive. But...to the guys that have been here for a while they have seen only a deterioration in the package and worse still, Dubai's inflation has diminished their spending power further in real terms. Someone quoted that an EK first officer earns less in GBP now than in 2000. We all know for sure that the package is eroding more and more rapidly against inflation. The big question that most of us want to know is when will it stop. Trust me, if it continues as it has even guys that are furloughed will cease to see the attraction of EK and Dubai.
Lets be honest here, not one guy that joined the Majors in 1995 expected to have to lower themselves so far as to go to the sandpit. You all thought about how much money you would make in your last few years on the big jets, how big the pension would be and how much money the 401K would yield. Now that the golden goose has been snatched away EK is suddenly attractive but heed the warnings of those that have been here a little longer.
The package is going down the toilet relative to inflation and the working conditions of EK (Airbus) at least are starting to suck big time. If I could work as hard as I did when I joined (84hrs a month) and earn the same in real terms I would still be pretty happy. I can't and I don't! 10 years ago, an EK F/O had a better life style than an EK Captain does now; but its all about perspective or the baggage that you carry with you.
Ghost
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Not wanting to align myself with either side of the argument, what I think will prove to be really interesting in time will be the reaction of many arriving from the US to what I can only call "the EK Corporate Culture".
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Originally Posted by gj18457
Just wondering Typhoon how long have you actually been in DXB to make you such a career advisor to our US friends.I cant believe you are actually flying with the same guys I do.The overwhelming concensus is that of sadness and sorrow and many do have valid reasons.Do you actually fly with line pilots?How long did you actually take to get your command in EK?This is not a place for guys who have come from a previous major airline to easily settle in and be happy.You never will be and will have wasted alot of money moving and upset your family.Perhaps single guys will have a ok time for 6 months and then you will get itchy feet and also be upset over many of the policies that will no doubt directly effect you.Even the people from the low cost carriers who want to come obviously haven't done their homework.You have to speak a broad cross section of people not only view pprune to make an informed decision.
My reason for posting on other U.S. webboards has always been to get the word out to the thousands and thousands of furloughed and displaced pilots that there is an alternative to waiting out their furlough in the USA or a chance to re-start their career. I do it as objectively as I can and based on MY perceptions. I try not to get all emotional and I certainly don't have a hidden agenda. I've worked for 6 different airlines, three of which were outside of the USA ( including EK ). I knew what I was getting into when I came to EK and I knew it was a risk to come to the right seat. Fortunately it worked out for me. EK was not my first choice nor do I tell people that it should be theirs.
Seems a bit schizoid though, in January he posted that he wouldn't have joined EK if he had known that they were going to take DECs.
I'm not going to apologize for being happy. I like my life and I like my job at EK. My wife and I enjoy living in Dubai. Many of my friends feel the same way. Few read PPrune and fewer still post on here.
Now, is the race track,.......I mean the golf course open again so I can go enjoy some nice weather
TP
Thread Starter
Perhaps I am being a touch pedantic but my paragraph that you quoted indicates that, in fact, you did not know what you were getting into when you joined EK.
But at least it worked out for you. Didn't it.
But at least it worked out for you. Didn't it.
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TP
A couple of things.
Few of your friends might read PPruNE, but believe me, this forum has a VERY wide audience. One of the most widely read aviation magazines, Flight International refers to PPruNe (The latest being with reference to the Ryanair situation). Emirates management reads it, pilot candidates are asked if they read it - so I think the consensus would be that it's widely viewed.
Don't you find it just a little curious that until the last few years, Emirates rated infrequently on this forum. There are very good reasons why. It used to be a well paid job where we were treated with consideration and respect. We cheerfully did the job that was required. Fairly strict employment criteria meant we got people who didn't need to be taught to fly again. (few exceptions as in any airline).
Now look at the relative employment conditions, lifestyle etc etc here in Dubai. No wonder these forums now contain so many prolific comments. Management has their head in the sand (pun intended), and the company is like a rudderless ship foundering in an ocean of incompetence and mediocrity. What serious airline industry awards have we won lately? (and I don't mean the ones where just one hundred and thirty people were surveyed)
Where there is smoke there is fire and I think it is fair to say if you take the extremist posts out of it, these forums give a sobering account of what is happening here.
I wonder if you are the one out of step.
Originally Posted by typhoonpilot
Few read PPrune and fewer still post on here.
Few of your friends might read PPruNE, but believe me, this forum has a VERY wide audience. One of the most widely read aviation magazines, Flight International refers to PPruNe (The latest being with reference to the Ryanair situation). Emirates management reads it, pilot candidates are asked if they read it - so I think the consensus would be that it's widely viewed.
Don't you find it just a little curious that until the last few years, Emirates rated infrequently on this forum. There are very good reasons why. It used to be a well paid job where we were treated with consideration and respect. We cheerfully did the job that was required. Fairly strict employment criteria meant we got people who didn't need to be taught to fly again. (few exceptions as in any airline).
Now look at the relative employment conditions, lifestyle etc etc here in Dubai. No wonder these forums now contain so many prolific comments. Management has their head in the sand (pun intended), and the company is like a rudderless ship foundering in an ocean of incompetence and mediocrity. What serious airline industry awards have we won lately? (and I don't mean the ones where just one hundred and thirty people were surveyed)
Where there is smoke there is fire and I think it is fair to say if you take the extremist posts out of it, these forums give a sobering account of what is happening here.
I wonder if you are the one out of step.
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Originally Posted by 330 Man
I am an american at EK that enjoys going to work every day, loves the fact that the paycheck does not bounce and is never late, love the fact that my retirement fund will never be terminated, (been there done that) and for the most part get to fly with some really great and professional people. I take great joy every day watching my kids get a great education that is 90% paid for by EK. I smile every day knowing that the clinic is only a phone call away and that it is staffed by great doctors. I love the fact that I am no longer commuting and that the car picks me up and drops me off for every trip.
How much did your kids' education cost in the USA? I think it was free.
Didn't you have health insurance in the USA with USAir? Didn't you have a wide choice of high quality doctors and medical services in the USA?
I understand not missing commuting. But you could have lived in your base in the USA, and it would have been a much smaller adjustment than moving to Dubai. I live in my base (working for a US carrier), and really doubt that having someone drive me to work would be a big improvement to my quality of life. I also work with some very great and professional people. My only retirement fund is my 401K, and that can't be terminated.
You have told us nothing about EK that makes it so wonderful. But if you were furloughed from USAir, then it is better than unemployment. I'm not in that situation, I'll probably turn down the interview.
As an American, it is helpful for me to hear the perspectives of other Americans. This one doesn't encourage me much though.
GoForIt