AUH - a few procedures
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Rockwells?
Ironbutt we (most of us) will try issue a slower speed if you are on a downwind and it is anticipated ur heading for a 20 miler downwind, the curve ball comes in when there are more behind. then everyone slows right down (rather that than everyone head out 20 miles). As you can imagine the decsion on a speed has a snow ball effect therefore it needs to be corrrectly applied (and adhered to by you guys).
Chaps still going to Rockwells? If so what time?
Chaps still going to Rockwells? If so what time?
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AUH - a few procedures
Hi everyone. First time I join this forum. Just couldn't resist to say..."possitive input reuslt in positive feedback"I have been in this game now for 33 years(as ATC and 20 years flying myself). Thus you old (and not so old) friends in the sky, I would like to share some true words in life which I've been told by an old friend (an elderly pilot friend) I met about 20 years ago who said to me one day:
"We may be pilots... we may be ATC's ...but we are all COMRADES OF THE AIR. What ever affects the one, always affects the other.
Having seen the remarks a few days ago on another forum and then this forum, I must say that these words are truly spoken. If it was not for you guys(and girls) we would not have been in this game and without our support life would have been pretty difficult for you out there to.
Having also done the thing with the night thing last night and being in the process of moving, I would have loved to be at Rockwells tonight..
Sorry I couldn't make it. Maybe next time as I have always believed in resolving matters by personal discussion. Best over a relaxing drink.My appreciation to IShotTheSherif, Abu and TMAguide who took the initiative in staring this thread and explaining to our flying friends what problems we are faced with in trying our utmost best to help the flying fertinity in getting to and from AUH with the least delay.
Please guys (and girls) next time you're out there and talking to us please remember we try our best to help. Like ABU has said, our motto is to get you on the ground or enroute to your destination ASAP.
Please post any queries, problems or advice required and I am sure we can resolve anything with the utmost respect for one another.RE
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ButtIron is probably having a good chuckle cosy in his bed, snoozzzing away, OR having far too many of them "tinnies' else where, just to let u chaps know we were there...
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Sorry fellows, buttiron's trusty steed of 11 yrs dropped it's guts on Electra street, and spend a joyous evening trying to get her home...off to the shop today to get a new battery..(hope thats the trouble) and try again tonite..if not taxi time....used to have Wayne (aka "stinky arm") gsm number in my fone and would have given a heads up...seems to have gone missing with my fone one foggy night while conducting "LVP's" at Rock Bottom
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This thread is probably one of the best threads that I have read in some time and therefore it is deserving of a reply.
Firstly I would like to see the ground controllers at AUH issue the departure clearance in the "read back" after the pilots have called for push and start with their relevant details. This would save us from having to ask for it at the gate after you have issued the clearance for push and start or from us having to ask you for it while taxiing.
Let me now put in my two cents of why 250 below ten is the norm around the world regardless of whether or not the airspace has that restriction. I have flown both the Boeing and Airbus and have had the most senior training captains of both companies observe my operations. Both manufacturer captains made a point to comment on the importance of 250 below ten because of bird strike. Yes I know that Boeing have a 313kt limitation but what you don't know is that this limitation is derived with the windshield from a pressurised cockpit. The tensile properties of the windshield change with pressurisation. At high altitude when the cabin diff pressure is 8, the winshield is like a balloon. It is stronger. But when you begin your descent below 10 and the cabin diff pressure is reduced the tensile properties begin to decrease and the window is no longer as strong. At 313kts below ten, the bird would end up in first class.
Let us now look at some other points. Apart from the fact that 250 below ten is safer than 300 below ten at high density airports, the fuel burn is also increased in this situation. Even though ATC may say no speed restriction on the climb out and the descent, if you increase that speed to say 320 in the climb you are not flying the aircraft efficiently. And for the descent, the most efficient way is not keeping the aircraft crusing until you can do a dead stick landing. It is the LRC Mach to Fl 300, then 290-300 kts to 10K and then 250 below ten. Look at the AFM if you don't know this one.
What ATC must be aware of is the general guide line of the maufacturer's recommended speeds, which are basically speeds adopted by the operator and that also includes the approach speeds. That means roughly a speed of 210-220 kts downwind, reducing to 180kts on base, 160kts to the LOM and managed speed thereafter or bug plus 5.
A STAR would be the best thing to implement for AUH as this would give the pilot the info for the profile. When radar vectors are then issued, a track distant miles is what is needed for the pilot to plan his approach.
Firstly I would like to see the ground controllers at AUH issue the departure clearance in the "read back" after the pilots have called for push and start with their relevant details. This would save us from having to ask for it at the gate after you have issued the clearance for push and start or from us having to ask you for it while taxiing.
Let me now put in my two cents of why 250 below ten is the norm around the world regardless of whether or not the airspace has that restriction. I have flown both the Boeing and Airbus and have had the most senior training captains of both companies observe my operations. Both manufacturer captains made a point to comment on the importance of 250 below ten because of bird strike. Yes I know that Boeing have a 313kt limitation but what you don't know is that this limitation is derived with the windshield from a pressurised cockpit. The tensile properties of the windshield change with pressurisation. At high altitude when the cabin diff pressure is 8, the winshield is like a balloon. It is stronger. But when you begin your descent below 10 and the cabin diff pressure is reduced the tensile properties begin to decrease and the window is no longer as strong. At 313kts below ten, the bird would end up in first class.
Let us now look at some other points. Apart from the fact that 250 below ten is safer than 300 below ten at high density airports, the fuel burn is also increased in this situation. Even though ATC may say no speed restriction on the climb out and the descent, if you increase that speed to say 320 in the climb you are not flying the aircraft efficiently. And for the descent, the most efficient way is not keeping the aircraft crusing until you can do a dead stick landing. It is the LRC Mach to Fl 300, then 290-300 kts to 10K and then 250 below ten. Look at the AFM if you don't know this one.
What ATC must be aware of is the general guide line of the maufacturer's recommended speeds, which are basically speeds adopted by the operator and that also includes the approach speeds. That means roughly a speed of 210-220 kts downwind, reducing to 180kts on base, 160kts to the LOM and managed speed thereafter or bug plus 5.
A STAR would be the best thing to implement for AUH as this would give the pilot the info for the profile. When radar vectors are then issued, a track distant miles is what is needed for the pilot to plan his approach.
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Yes...atc in Bombay have a very nice habit of telling us track miles to landing when issuing initial radar vectors very helpful in planning
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Hi guys 
,
I think some mis-understanding has crept in regarding the 250 below 10k issue.
A variety of different airlines operating into AUH have different policies with regards to speeds. I was just trying to find out what I can expect from who. I do not expect you to violate company policy, and if I do ask for it, its as simple as saying 'Unable to comply'. We will make another plan.
The issue I had with the speeds - was that some pilots are reducing from the speed I had issued without clearance. I issued the speed to maybe keep you ahead so you are number 1, or maybe to stop you from slipping from 4 out of 7 to 6 out of 7. Again, these speeds I give are not advisories, they are instructions. If unable/unwilling to comply, please advise at your earliest convenience, so we can adjust our planning accordingly. There may be another 4 right behind (or even from the opposite direction to) you which we will have to slow down too.
Now this happens infrequently, but I may *gasp* change the inbound sequence. This is done, because I may have found another way of fitting you all in quicker than before (see paragraph above re speeds). It may mean you move from 2 to 3, which then means someone moves from 3 to 2. I would dearly love to make you all number 1 direct GIRBA/RIDEX, but it just can't happen.
With regards to track miles, sometimes the ATC is stretched to the limit. We may not give it, or will give a rough estimate, which I feel is a waste of time. If you are number one for a downwind approach, its approximately your DME from AUH and 18-20nm (8 downwind, 4 base, 8 final). So if youre 40 dme for a L/H 31 and you are number 1, then you will have roughly 60nm to touchdown. If you're straight in for 13/31, and you are at 40dme, then you have 40 track miles to touchdown
. Obviously, another approach control sector would be grand. I heard it is in the works, and the date I seem to remember was around July next year. I don't believe there is any plan afoot to design STARS, but I will investigate.
We have just had a new radar system installed, so in the coming months we should be trained and eventually move across. I have not used it yet, and can't say whether it will hinder or help us, but we will be asking for your help and patience when we do transition to it. You may notice we have a huge tower with a big golf ball on top of it. Well, we don't work up there. Between G1 and D1, there is a little 'standby tower'. Well, that is where we operate from, because our main tower is undergoing refurbishment, new consoles and equipment etc. That is why all your pushback and starts are 'at your discretion'. We can't see anything of B2/B3, A1-A4 and any of the new E-bays. If we have heavies in D1/2/3, then we can see almost nothing.
Thanks for reading, and thanks for the responses. Keep it up!!
We will be at Rockwell Cafe\' around 23:15\'ish... See ya later...
,I think some mis-understanding has crept in regarding the 250 below 10k issue.
A variety of different airlines operating into AUH have different policies with regards to speeds. I was just trying to find out what I can expect from who. I do not expect you to violate company policy, and if I do ask for it, its as simple as saying 'Unable to comply'. We will make another plan.
The issue I had with the speeds - was that some pilots are reducing from the speed I had issued without clearance. I issued the speed to maybe keep you ahead so you are number 1, or maybe to stop you from slipping from 4 out of 7 to 6 out of 7. Again, these speeds I give are not advisories, they are instructions. If unable/unwilling to comply, please advise at your earliest convenience, so we can adjust our planning accordingly. There may be another 4 right behind (or even from the opposite direction to) you which we will have to slow down too.
Now this happens infrequently, but I may *gasp* change the inbound sequence. This is done, because I may have found another way of fitting you all in quicker than before (see paragraph above re speeds). It may mean you move from 2 to 3, which then means someone moves from 3 to 2. I would dearly love to make you all number 1 direct GIRBA/RIDEX, but it just can't happen.
With regards to track miles, sometimes the ATC is stretched to the limit. We may not give it, or will give a rough estimate, which I feel is a waste of time. If you are number one for a downwind approach, its approximately your DME from AUH and 18-20nm (8 downwind, 4 base, 8 final). So if youre 40 dme for a L/H 31 and you are number 1, then you will have roughly 60nm to touchdown. If you're straight in for 13/31, and you are at 40dme, then you have 40 track miles to touchdown
. Obviously, another approach control sector would be grand. I heard it is in the works, and the date I seem to remember was around July next year. I don't believe there is any plan afoot to design STARS, but I will investigate.We have just had a new radar system installed, so in the coming months we should be trained and eventually move across. I have not used it yet, and can't say whether it will hinder or help us, but we will be asking for your help and patience when we do transition to it. You may notice we have a huge tower with a big golf ball on top of it. Well, we don't work up there. Between G1 and D1, there is a little 'standby tower'. Well, that is where we operate from, because our main tower is undergoing refurbishment, new consoles and equipment etc. That is why all your pushback and starts are 'at your discretion'. We can't see anything of B2/B3, A1-A4 and any of the new E-bays. If we have heavies in D1/2/3, then we can see almost nothing.
Thanks for reading, and thanks for the responses. Keep it up!!
We will be at Rockwell Cafe\' around 23:15\'ish... See ya later...
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Very constructive thread...
My turn now..
As ATC, we could also become better re speed control. How often do we forget to terminate speed control when issueing a reduction? Well, more than we think! So, to some point I understand why a pilot will reduce, he needs to land the bird.
Reason why we don't do thight downwinds are many. Some ATCOs just think 5 nm wide "looks" good and others consider conflicting departing traffic (A13/A31). So you might ask why don't we just get close and stop at 4000, well you departed earlier as well, so you probably also want a continous climb (and avoid the possiblity of a level bust, TCAS TA/RA etc.). BUT we Radar ATCOs receive the departure strip in time, so we roughly know when the flight will be airborne. Therefore no departures, get 'em close and short..
Re night operations at AUH and 10 nm separation between successive arrivals. Its a lot of bull!!! If we as ATCOs have a well "controlled" speed control we can easily bring them in closer. The instruction is: 1st landed aircraft has to vacate the runway when 2nd is on 4 nm final (funny enough, nothing mentioned about a departing traffic... but let it rest). Respect of which types are being sequenced and departures at the holding point, I consider 6-8 nm spacing sufficient/perfect for both situations. I know some drivers moans when its "very" close between departures and arrivals (in the event of a missed approach etc.), but believe me, if I'm in the tower I've got a plan B/C as well. Its all about speed control on final. But we're all different. Landing clearance can still be issued when you pass the threshold and previous departing aircraft has passed the runway end... Its close at night I know, but you do the flying and I'll do the controlling
Having said that, perhaps we should give you some more space due to the unreliable equipment at AUH. Some mornings are crazy! You probably already heard an ATCOs voice on the freq. being "stressed". Simply because there's too much traffic for one sector to handle. So what about ground radio failure, radar failure, total power failure etc. Well, I hope I'm not on duty and I hope you'll be flying a trip to Dubai that day instead
To all you pilots! Which speed do you prefer on final (please mention the type you fly as well)? I'm used to 160/4 or 180/5 and 200/8 or 220/10 (minimum clean) and it worked great where I'm from.
Another thing. Its not like we practise speed control to our finger tips here in the Gulf. AUH is not that busy! (some will say yet
). A typical inbound sequence is normally 3-4-5-6 at the time, and luckily some with "peaks" with 7-10, but its normally gone within 30 min. That's the practise we get, if we're in position that day. So we might be "rusty" at times. No simulator to practise on either. So bear with us if we miss a mile or two (in the right direction of course ). As said before, sometimes we want you to fly high speed on downwind, maybe to close a gap so you can get in front of a straight-in guy (that requires everyones attention though, so please listen up on app freq).
Talking about "listen-up". Some drivers tends to "confirm" nearly every instruction given to them. THAT IS ANNOYING!!! Of course better safe than sorry, but c'mon, what do you expect on an approach freq.? Descend, Turn and Speed....right? That would help us a lot when busy. You could then justify that there's too many on the freq. at the same time, but then again, there's normally only 1 Qatari on the freq at any given time. (Sorry Qatari ). GF should look into some similar callsigns they use (call-sign confusion!) and change re Human Factor principles.
That's all for now, back to you
As ATC, we could also become better re speed control. How often do we forget to terminate speed control when issueing a reduction? Well, more than we think! So, to some point I understand why a pilot will reduce, he needs to land the bird.
Reason why we don't do thight downwinds are many. Some ATCOs just think 5 nm wide "looks" good and others consider conflicting departing traffic (A13/A31). So you might ask why don't we just get close and stop at 4000, well you departed earlier as well, so you probably also want a continous climb (and avoid the possiblity of a level bust, TCAS TA/RA etc.). BUT we Radar ATCOs receive the departure strip in time, so we roughly know when the flight will be airborne. Therefore no departures, get 'em close and short..
Re night operations at AUH and 10 nm separation between successive arrivals. Its a lot of bull!!! If we as ATCOs have a well "controlled" speed control we can easily bring them in closer. The instruction is: 1st landed aircraft has to vacate the runway when 2nd is on 4 nm final (funny enough, nothing mentioned about a departing traffic... but let it rest). Respect of which types are being sequenced and departures at the holding point, I consider 6-8 nm spacing sufficient/perfect for both situations. I know some drivers moans when its "very" close between departures and arrivals (in the event of a missed approach etc.), but believe me, if I'm in the tower I've got a plan B/C as well. Its all about speed control on final. But we're all different. Landing clearance can still be issued when you pass the threshold and previous departing aircraft has passed the runway end... Its close at night I know, but you do the flying and I'll do the controlling
Having said that, perhaps we should give you some more space due to the unreliable equipment at AUH. Some mornings are crazy! You probably already heard an ATCOs voice on the freq. being "stressed". Simply because there's too much traffic for one sector to handle. So what about ground radio failure, radar failure, total power failure etc. Well, I hope I'm not on duty and I hope you'll be flying a trip to Dubai that day instead
To all you pilots! Which speed do you prefer on final (please mention the type you fly as well)? I'm used to 160/4 or 180/5 and 200/8 or 220/10 (minimum clean) and it worked great where I'm from.
Another thing. Its not like we practise speed control to our finger tips here in the Gulf. AUH is not that busy! (some will say yet
). A typical inbound sequence is normally 3-4-5-6 at the time, and luckily some with "peaks" with 7-10, but its normally gone within 30 min. That's the practise we get, if we're in position that day. So we might be "rusty" at times. No simulator to practise on either. So bear with us if we miss a mile or two (in the right direction of course ). As said before, sometimes we want you to fly high speed on downwind, maybe to close a gap so you can get in front of a straight-in guy (that requires everyones attention though, so please listen up on app freq).Talking about "listen-up". Some drivers tends to "confirm" nearly every instruction given to them. THAT IS ANNOYING!!! Of course better safe than sorry, but c'mon, what do you expect on an approach freq.? Descend, Turn and Speed....right? That would help us a lot when busy. You could then justify that there's too many on the freq. at the same time, but then again, there's normally only 1 Qatari on the freq at any given time. (Sorry Qatari
). GF should look into some similar callsigns they use (call-sign confusion!) and change re Human Factor principles.That's all for now, back to you
Last edited by Dr. Evil; 3rd Sep 2005 at 17:52.
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Hi Guys
Well no one turned up at Rockwell's two nights running. We (Controllers) will be at the Captains Arms (Meridian) tonight from 8pm. Hope some of you GFA, ETD etc crew can make it.
Hope to see you.
Well no one turned up at Rockwell's two nights running. We (Controllers) will be at the Captains Arms (Meridian) tonight from 8pm. Hope some of you GFA, ETD etc crew can make it.
Hope to see you.
Last edited by FDMS; 4th Sep 2005 at 11:05.
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Hello to all
I would like to clarify a few things.
1. When a pilot requests a short approach; what is that exactly? Is it 2 or 3 miles from final approach? ATC's were taught, that a pilot has to be vectored for a 10-12nm final approach.
2.At AUH we don't have the facility for the pilot to position himself on final approach. I suggest that you request a visual approach should you prefer to position yourself for final approach.
Bubble bee
I would like to clarify a few things.
1. When a pilot requests a short approach; what is that exactly? Is it 2 or 3 miles from final approach? ATC's were taught, that a pilot has to be vectored for a 10-12nm final approach.
2.At AUH we don't have the facility for the pilot to position himself on final approach. I suggest that you request a visual approach should you prefer to position yourself for final approach.
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ATC's were taught, that a pilot has to be vectored for a 10-12nm final approach.
I was taught 2 nm before glideslope intercept if the final vector was 30 degrees or less to the LLZ. And 3 nm before glideslope if it was up to 45 degrees intercept. 10-12 nm final for me seems a lot of extra miles (space for one in between
)
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Auh Procedures
Just wanted to say that there has a been a noticeable difference in peoples behaviour in the week.
I'm glad to say that this thread seems to have expained the conditions that we controllers work under. It nice to hear pleasant voices from the pilots. We are trying to help you as much as possible but of course our hands are tied in some matters.
We are all working in the Middle East, we know the red tape thats here but its been a much nicer environment to work in recently. I hope it continues..
Abu.
I'm glad to say that this thread seems to have expained the conditions that we controllers work under. It nice to hear pleasant voices from the pilots. We are trying to help you as much as possible but of course our hands are tied in some matters.
We are all working in the Middle East, we know the red tape thats here but its been a much nicer environment to work in recently. I hope it continues..
Abu.
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I Concur
Hi guys,
I concur with Abu here - there has been a noticeable difference to the better.
Thanks for the co-operation, and if you have any questions/suggestions/complaints/compliments, then feel free to chime in.
Should anybody wish to visit us and see what we do first hand, then feel free to call (02) 5052800, that's the radar room, and we will definitely make a plan. Or just PM me and I will speak with you directly...
Cheers, and thanks again to all concerned - it's been fantastic lately...
I concur with Abu here - there has been a noticeable difference to the better.
Thanks for the co-operation, and if you have any questions/suggestions/complaints/compliments, then feel free to chime in.
The invite to drop in and watch would be easy if our rosters let us! But where and how would help
Cheers, and thanks again to all concerned - it's been fantastic lately...
