2 new DEC on EK 777
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NO!
I also believe that Zomp is trying to justify the DECs in the wrong way. Just because EK did that in the past is no reason to do that same desision today. EK is a grown up airline now with plenty of qualified pilots today in the right and left seats. A lot of captains at EK hired even 8 yrs ago could not get hired today based on their qualifications. That goes to show you that EK has matured, not a slam on the current captains. Get rid of the DEC program at EK and the pilot applications will grow with qualified FOs wanting to come to a world class airline.
I also believe that Zomp is trying to justify the DECs in the wrong way. Just because EK did that in the past is no reason to do that same desision today. EK is a grown up airline now with plenty of qualified pilots today in the right and left seats. A lot of captains at EK hired even 8 yrs ago could not get hired today based on their qualifications. That goes to show you that EK has matured, not a slam on the current captains. Get rid of the DEC program at EK and the pilot applications will grow with qualified FOs wanting to come to a world class airline.
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Rain.
How many pilots is "a lot"? I'm sure you've used proven data to make this claim. Oh I forgot, it's a rumour forum....
It is impossible to draw a comaprison between experience of pilots from 16, 8 or 4 years ago and those hired today unless you have the facts. Even if you had the data, such a comparison would be irrelevant
Is the DEC policy fair?
No.
Would a change to the promotion criteria change pilots outlook? Probably.
Will the policy change?
Not as long as there is a more economic (short term) and expeditious method.
Zomp
Yes you are right, the DEC policy has been around as long as Emirates has. It just hasn't been used to this extent before.
Emirates will continue to hire DEC's as long as there are no qualified (EK definition) F/O's on the fleet.
Why? Because that's their policy.
How many pilots is "a lot"? I'm sure you've used proven data to make this claim. Oh I forgot, it's a rumour forum....
It is impossible to draw a comaprison between experience of pilots from 16, 8 or 4 years ago and those hired today unless you have the facts. Even if you had the data, such a comparison would be irrelevant
Is the DEC policy fair?
No.
Would a change to the promotion criteria change pilots outlook? Probably.
Will the policy change?
Not as long as there is a more economic (short term) and expeditious method.
Zomp
Yes you are right, the DEC policy has been around as long as Emirates has. It just hasn't been used to this extent before.
Emirates will continue to hire DEC's as long as there are no qualified (EK definition) F/O's on the fleet.
Why? Because that's their policy.
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REALITY CHECK!
LHR Rain - I don't disagree with your views, or those of others here, and I sincerely hope that you, and all the other qualified FO's, get your upgrades as quickly as possible.
HOWEVER, what's happened so far is nothing compared to what's about to happen in the coming 2 years.
FACT: DEC's are going to be employed onto the 777 Fleet as a joint measure of avoiding transition upgrades, while meeting Fleet expansion (in significant numbers!)
FACT: Our management has recently reviewed the policy on transition upgrades, and have decided that DEC's are the better choice for the company, for one reason: $$$$ (their conclusion, not mine!)
FACT: DEC's will be hired onto the 380. (This will be done as an additional carrot to those DEC candidates that aren't convinced by the "movie star" salary)
FACT: DEFO's will also go onto the 380, but I don't think any sane peson is surprised by that fact: its a necessity.
CONCLUSION: Things are not going to get better. Make your decisions based on your own personal and professional requirements. All airlines needing pilots are going to feel the pinch soon, if not already. Don't be so naive to believe that red carpets will get rolled out to anybody with a rating; they will control staff movement simply by increased bonds and penalties for leaving. And so far EK has not done that!
And always remember, green grass can grow atop very deep sh&^t, so don't be too quick to jump the fence!
Also, for what its worth, the experience we have in the right seat of EK is hugely appreciated and respected by the Captains. Weather the storm if you can, get your upgrades, and THEN re-assess.
CTOAN
HOWEVER, what's happened so far is nothing compared to what's about to happen in the coming 2 years.
FACT: DEC's are going to be employed onto the 777 Fleet as a joint measure of avoiding transition upgrades, while meeting Fleet expansion (in significant numbers!)
FACT: Our management has recently reviewed the policy on transition upgrades, and have decided that DEC's are the better choice for the company, for one reason: $$$$ (their conclusion, not mine!)
FACT: DEC's will be hired onto the 380. (This will be done as an additional carrot to those DEC candidates that aren't convinced by the "movie star" salary)
FACT: DEFO's will also go onto the 380, but I don't think any sane peson is surprised by that fact: its a necessity.
CONCLUSION: Things are not going to get better. Make your decisions based on your own personal and professional requirements. All airlines needing pilots are going to feel the pinch soon, if not already. Don't be so naive to believe that red carpets will get rolled out to anybody with a rating; they will control staff movement simply by increased bonds and penalties for leaving. And so far EK has not done that!
And always remember, green grass can grow atop very deep sh&^t, so don't be too quick to jump the fence!
Also, for what its worth, the experience we have in the right seat of EK is hugely appreciated and respected by the Captains. Weather the storm if you can, get your upgrades, and THEN re-assess.
CTOAN
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In reply to all the kind words addressed to me I resond:
Global Nomad:
A don't know specifically what a lot of pilots are. I do know at least 4 captains that I have flown with including one in the CRM department that by their own admission said they could not get hired today with the qualifications that they had at the time of joining. That is not to say everyone hired 8 yrs ago was not qualified or could not get hired today. That does say there were and are some (a lot) of captains that meet the criteria I metioned above.
You know as well as I do that most if not all of the FOs today at EK are qualified to fly an international, wide-body aircraft. It is just the company that puts the limits on us so they can "justify" their decision to screw us.
CTOAN
I would like nothing better to get an upgrade and leave. Unfortunately that prospect is a long ways away as you so pointidliy made me aware of. I hope your analyalist is wrong but I fear that it is right on the money. Thanks for the appreciation of the right seat guys. God help us all!
Global Nomad:
A don't know specifically what a lot of pilots are. I do know at least 4 captains that I have flown with including one in the CRM department that by their own admission said they could not get hired today with the qualifications that they had at the time of joining. That is not to say everyone hired 8 yrs ago was not qualified or could not get hired today. That does say there were and are some (a lot) of captains that meet the criteria I metioned above.
You know as well as I do that most if not all of the FOs today at EK are qualified to fly an international, wide-body aircraft. It is just the company that puts the limits on us so they can "justify" their decision to screw us.
CTOAN
I would like nothing better to get an upgrade and leave. Unfortunately that prospect is a long ways away as you so pointidliy made me aware of. I hope your analyalist is wrong but I fear that it is right on the money. Thanks for the appreciation of the right seat guys. God help us all!
Well there is a handful of pilots F/os exceeding the DEC requirement and denyed upgrade .
Its all about money, join the wrong type and your career is screwed Emirates is not 1 airline dont join the wrong 1.
Its all about money, join the wrong type and your career is screwed Emirates is not 1 airline dont join the wrong 1.
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Someone earlier mentioned there is alot of "manual insertion"
There certainly is , and they seem to be inserting the manual deeper, after they have changed it that is.
The majority (imho) of pilots wanted ek in the hope of a fast command .( If they are honest with themselves that is). It seems to have gone pear shaped. It wont change. there is a endless supply of ICAO licenced (read third world cheaper) pilots filling the slots now. if its sh1t leave. Dont be surprised if your ek rating is not that exportable. Most airlines that operate such kit have strict seniority so youll be in the right seat again anyway,and your dubai validation of anything other than a jar atpl will mean your stuck in a viscious circle, and you may not even get hired. Many companies in europe are now hiring straight out of school again to avoid this constant pressure for command. If you want to be a dec outside of ek youll need command time on type for a dec in europe. catch 22
Of course those of you with previous command can return to say JMC etc but the f/os you left behind will probably be skippers and in some cases maybe even yours.
Add to that the humiliation of kowtowing to your hosts, no civil rights and a double shafting from your expat colleagues who feather their own nests by trying to please the local shiek. Boy I dont envy you. Do like the colour scheme tho.
There certainly is , and they seem to be inserting the manual deeper, after they have changed it that is.
The majority (imho) of pilots wanted ek in the hope of a fast command .( If they are honest with themselves that is). It seems to have gone pear shaped. It wont change. there is a endless supply of ICAO licenced (read third world cheaper) pilots filling the slots now. if its sh1t leave. Dont be surprised if your ek rating is not that exportable. Most airlines that operate such kit have strict seniority so youll be in the right seat again anyway,and your dubai validation of anything other than a jar atpl will mean your stuck in a viscious circle, and you may not even get hired. Many companies in europe are now hiring straight out of school again to avoid this constant pressure for command. If you want to be a dec outside of ek youll need command time on type for a dec in europe. catch 22
Of course those of you with previous command can return to say JMC etc but the f/os you left behind will probably be skippers and in some cases maybe even yours.
Add to that the humiliation of kowtowing to your hosts, no civil rights and a double shafting from your expat colleagues who feather their own nests by trying to please the local shiek. Boy I dont envy you. Do like the colour scheme tho.
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Dicksy
Glad you like the colours. Along with the red and black is green........the colour of envy! There are a whole lot more guys trying to get in than there are trying to get out, believe me.
There may not be the civil rights here in the Gulf as the one's you enjoy in Europe but my quality of life and standard of living is better. I was the wrong colour, age bracket, religion and sexual persuasion to enjoy the so called civil rights that were on offer to me in Europe anyway!
Just heard on sky news that those young hooded hooligans will enjoy £12 month 'pocket money' if they behave themselves every day. Which means either;
A) YOU'RE about to be shafted on the tax front.
or
B) YOUR windows will need to be boarded up.
Boy, I don't envy you.
Glad you like the colours. Along with the red and black is green........the colour of envy! There are a whole lot more guys trying to get in than there are trying to get out, believe me.
There may not be the civil rights here in the Gulf as the one's you enjoy in Europe but my quality of life and standard of living is better. I was the wrong colour, age bracket, religion and sexual persuasion to enjoy the so called civil rights that were on offer to me in Europe anyway!
Just heard on sky news that those young hooded hooligans will enjoy £12 month 'pocket money' if they behave themselves every day. Which means either;
A) YOU'RE about to be shafted on the tax front.
or
B) YOUR windows will need to be boarded up.
Boy, I don't envy you.
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er...yes. My Wife often thinks I can be a bit queer but in the strange / odd / eccentric way, not in the " ooh Jeremy, I couldn't possibly do it again.........my knees are killing me dear!" 
Hope that ' straightens' things out for you!
Hope that ' straightens' things out for you!
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Bymonek.
Sorry u didnt realise you were a mid thirties straight,married , two kids, anglosaxon c of e englishman . I do sympathise. You are actively discriminated against these days, not least by the diverse bbc.
Please dont play the sob story. Everyone (except the lucky cadets etc) has their own stories of financial hardship, favouritism ,jobs for the(raf) boys etc syndrome that is prevelant the uk at least.
As for the Hoodies, i take offence. Both my sons are card carrying hooligans , they were the wrong age , colour, sexual persuasion to be anything else.We all have to make a living.
Along with the green for envy is the fact that i make enough in extraordinary payments alone (after tax) than most of your f/os make in a month. This enables me to come and enjoy your agreeable lifesyle regularly without offering my botty to a local sheik or his expat henchman. See you at the sailing club some time.
Sorry u didnt realise you were a mid thirties straight,married , two kids, anglosaxon c of e englishman . I do sympathise. You are actively discriminated against these days, not least by the diverse bbc.
Please dont play the sob story. Everyone (except the lucky cadets etc) has their own stories of financial hardship, favouritism ,jobs for the(raf) boys etc syndrome that is prevelant the uk at least.
As for the Hoodies, i take offence. Both my sons are card carrying hooligans , they were the wrong age , colour, sexual persuasion to be anything else.We all have to make a living.
Along with the green for envy is the fact that i make enough in extraordinary payments alone (after tax) than most of your f/os make in a month. This enables me to come and enjoy your agreeable lifesyle regularly without offering my botty to a local sheik or his expat henchman. See you at the sailing club some time.
We really need to hear that when our careers are ****** because we were placed on the wrong type .
You are way out of line dicksynormous you have no idea of how bad it is in the right seat so stay out of it.
I think the solution is for all ex captain f/os to leave get some more command time and come back as DECs on 777, thats how they want to play it.....
You are way out of line dicksynormous you have no idea of how bad it is in the right seat so stay out of it.
I think the solution is for all ex captain f/os to leave get some more command time and come back as DECs on 777, thats how they want to play it.....
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Thank you i do try. I usually get that response when your argument of tax free, big equipment fun is blown out of the water. Not rubbing it in, i dont need to, i'm not stuck on the right seat in the pit eating humble camel pie baked by an expat nest featherering [email protected]ing six to eight inches of halal meat inserted.(manually i'm told)
nearly took the bait tho as an f/o
Just pointing out the facts harry ol bean. Also an f/o 330 etc rating in dubai is good for just that. An f/o job elsewhere as an expat where woolly icao validations abound. You need the command time so its catch 22. Name one european 330/340/777.operator that would take an ek driver and put them on the left seat of a widebody ahead of the rest of their qualified time served people.
Its a good rating you have ,but good for the xpat world.
Harry the cod is a great name as you took the emirates bait.
Scooter, i do know and actually agree with you. Its an option i and many others now have open to us should we decide to go that route .
Must go now and book another staff ticket to dubai as i have a week off and 3grand of tax paid day off payments to blow.
Ps never did say i didnt like dubai
nearly took the bait tho as an f/o
Just pointing out the facts harry ol bean. Also an f/o 330 etc rating in dubai is good for just that. An f/o job elsewhere as an expat where woolly icao validations abound. You need the command time so its catch 22. Name one european 330/340/777.operator that would take an ek driver and put them on the left seat of a widebody ahead of the rest of their qualified time served people.
Its a good rating you have ,but good for the xpat world.
Harry the cod is a great name as you took the emirates bait.
Scooter, i do know and actually agree with you. Its an option i and many others now have open to us should we decide to go that route .
Must go now and book another staff ticket to dubai as i have a week off and 3grand of tax paid day off payments to blow.
Ps never did say i didnt like dubai
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Well, Dicksy, if he wasn't going to say it then someone was. You're just soooo easy to wind up. The only thing that confuses me about you is why you're on this forum in the first place as you have such an obvious aversion to working life in the Gulf.
Go on, have the last word then get lost.Your posts are repetitive, boring and full of tosh! You really are an annoying little git at the best of times.
Being a smart arse though, I guess you knew that already!
Now, back to the topic.................
Go on, have the last word then get lost.Your posts are repetitive, boring and full of tosh! You really are an annoying little git at the best of times.
Being a smart arse though, I guess you knew that already!
Now, back to the topic.................
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Regarding "little dick", the name Richard Cranium kinda springs to mind...... Like his knobby little chum Millerscourt (where are you old man?) I also wonder why they spend most of their surfing time hanging around the "Middle East" forum
Dicky baby, I don't do Halal. Now, why don't you do like "Bricktop" says, and ***k off.......
Dicky baby, I don't do Halal. Now, why don't you do like "Bricktop" says, and ***k off.......
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Ah the "why you on the forum" chestnut. Whats next, the" did you fail selection" alternative.
If you dont want outsiders to read your crap keep it on your company forum. I have been an expat for 17 years and am therefore interested in expat forums,and no i didnt to the other one. Pissed it actually but had a flash of common sense.
Impressed with your solidarity against me though. Shame you dont have the balls to apply it to ek.
Your reactions are predictable and as unchangable as your screwed up status as chippy f/os in the gulf.
I bet its not the last word though.
You are fast becoming as intolerant of others views as your management and hosts.
The whinging from ek is endless. As is the same old counter arguments therefore my repetitive posts are only in keeping with tradition on the topic.
Oh and by the way if alluding to a nickname as being inDICKative of my endowment or personna is as good an insult as you can muster then i'll gladly f£
Jellied date juice is good for soothing the back pasage ..allegedly
If you dont want outsiders to read your crap keep it on your company forum. I have been an expat for 17 years and am therefore interested in expat forums,and no i didnt to the other one. Pissed it actually but had a flash of common sense.
Impressed with your solidarity against me though. Shame you dont have the balls to apply it to ek.
Your reactions are predictable and as unchangable as your screwed up status as chippy f/os in the gulf.
I bet its not the last word though.
You are fast becoming as intolerant of others views as your management and hosts.
The whinging from ek is endless. As is the same old counter arguments therefore my repetitive posts are only in keeping with tradition on the topic.
Oh and by the way if alluding to a nickname as being inDICKative of my endowment or personna is as good an insult as you can muster then i'll gladly f£
Jellied date juice is good for soothing the back pasage ..allegedly
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Back to the thread
Quote:-
" DECs will only be introduced,if there are insufficient numbers of suitably qualified and experienced existing FOs within EK to meet existing expansion and it is intended as a temporary measure to see us through this current period of expansion"
Mr C Knowles,Feb 2003.
Probably cost neutral also,his lips moved too.
Off to the pub QB
Quote:-
" DECs will only be introduced,if there are insufficient numbers of suitably qualified and experienced existing FOs within EK to meet existing expansion and it is intended as a temporary measure to see us through this current period of expansion"
Mr C Knowles,Feb 2003.
Probably cost neutral also,his lips moved too.
Off to the pub QB
