EK - More 330 DECs
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: middle east
EK - More 330 DECs
It was my impression at our last management meeting that we were promised that there would be no more DEC's on the 330 fleet.
It has been bought to my attention that there is a "long" course on 18th July for Dec's and a "short" course on 12th Sept.
I can only assume that all the 330 f/o's that now meet the upgrade policy have been given course dates.
Please correct me if I am wrong !!!!
It has been bought to my attention that there is a "long" course on 18th July for Dec's and a "short" course on 12th Sept.
I can only assume that all the 330 f/o's that now meet the upgrade policy have been given course dates.
Please correct me if I am wrong !!!!
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
If it's for the A310, then all fine for me.. EK told us no more DEC for A330/B777, but some more required to get the A310 freighter ops going... Wonder where they are going to do the upgrades required for the Airbus ops without factoring though.. especially if some guys are leaving..
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: Idaho
MR8 has said it in a nutshell.
For those that can't read pilot speak, what he said was
"I'm all right, bugger the rest of you".
For anyone that is in any doubt, that is the prevailing attitude at EK, and probably most expat jobs.
It is also one explanation as to why you get such differing opinions on Pprune about EK. There is a vast disparity between fleets and individuals on the amount of work done and the amount of pay received.
Some are happy with their lot and speak highly, some are really p***ed off and run the place down. Both are right, but it is the inability or the unwillingness of many to understand the next guys situation that helps management implement the "divide and conquer" theory, that is so widespread in our industry.
I think you will find that is one reason why our profession is going down the toilet and it is not likely to change any time soon.
For those that can't read pilot speak, what he said was
"I'm all right, bugger the rest of you".
For anyone that is in any doubt, that is the prevailing attitude at EK, and probably most expat jobs.
It is also one explanation as to why you get such differing opinions on Pprune about EK. There is a vast disparity between fleets and individuals on the amount of work done and the amount of pay received.
Some are happy with their lot and speak highly, some are really p***ed off and run the place down. Both are right, but it is the inability or the unwillingness of many to understand the next guys situation that helps management implement the "divide and conquer" theory, that is so widespread in our industry.
I think you will find that is one reason why our profession is going down the toilet and it is not likely to change any time soon.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
Oops
Guys,
First of all. I would prefer to see F/O's getting an Command on the A310. I'm not in an ok position at EK, being myself an F/O on the airbus with maybe some 4 or 5 years to go before upgrade, especially if those A380's will be delayed by airbus...
I said it was fine for me for a few reasons:
1. EK did not lie about this one, they always said they would hire DEC's for the 310 fleet. So for a change, management sticks to their plan, which I can only applaud...
2. Let's all be honest, where would you find enough F/O's interested in an upgrade on A310. It would be easy for me, with still a few 100 guys in front of me to bitch and moan that the commands are not done inhouse, but then again, if I would be on top of the list, ready for a command, and they gave me the choice between A310 now (and be stuck on the machine in cargo ops for at least 6 years, lots of long trips planned, following horseraces or A1, so away from the family..) or wait a few months to get to the left seat in A330/340 (with the girls in the back..
) . My personal opinion is that you wouldn't find enough F/O's to upgrade on the A310 anyway..
I stand to be corrected by some more senior F/O's who could be faced with these decisions..
No excuses here guys, just trying to explain my way of thinking, and open for arguments as usual..
MR8
First of all. I would prefer to see F/O's getting an Command on the A310. I'm not in an ok position at EK, being myself an F/O on the airbus with maybe some 4 or 5 years to go before upgrade, especially if those A380's will be delayed by airbus...
I said it was fine for me for a few reasons:
1. EK did not lie about this one, they always said they would hire DEC's for the 310 fleet. So for a change, management sticks to their plan, which I can only applaud...
2. Let's all be honest, where would you find enough F/O's interested in an upgrade on A310. It would be easy for me, with still a few 100 guys in front of me to bitch and moan that the commands are not done inhouse, but then again, if I would be on top of the list, ready for a command, and they gave me the choice between A310 now (and be stuck on the machine in cargo ops for at least 6 years, lots of long trips planned, following horseraces or A1, so away from the family..) or wait a few months to get to the left seat in A330/340 (with the girls in the back..
) . My personal opinion is that you wouldn't find enough F/O's to upgrade on the A310 anyway..I stand to be corrected by some more senior F/O's who could be faced with these decisions..
No excuses here guys, just trying to explain my way of thinking, and open for arguments as usual..
MR8
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: UK
MR8,
When we had a few more 310s a few years back there were no snags getting F/Os to take an early command on the 310 rather than the 330. Some guys might actually like a break from the SLF. You'd be amazed mate; some guys even work on their days off too!
When we had a few more 310s a few years back there were no snags getting F/Os to take an early command on the 310 rather than the 330. Some guys might actually like a break from the SLF. You'd be amazed mate; some guys even work on their days off too!
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: Idaho
Let's be clear about this.
It is the company's b******t 3 years before command policy that is causing the problem. If you had a simple seniority based system, the fleet management could go down the list offering 310 commands. Eventually there will be enough guys who see an advantage to a quick command who will take the offer.
What we have here is a bunch of F/O's who are forced to wait a minimum of 3 years. By that stage command on a shiny new jet is probably not too far away, which makes a command on a 310 far less attractive, therefore none of the eligible F/O's are likely (and i dont blame them) to accept a command on that ageing piece of crap.
As many others have said. All this is a product of ill thought out knee jerk reactions to problem in other airlines.
It is the company's b******t 3 years before command policy that is causing the problem. If you had a simple seniority based system, the fleet management could go down the list offering 310 commands. Eventually there will be enough guys who see an advantage to a quick command who will take the offer.
What we have here is a bunch of F/O's who are forced to wait a minimum of 3 years. By that stage command on a shiny new jet is probably not too far away, which makes a command on a 310 far less attractive, therefore none of the eligible F/O's are likely (and i dont blame them) to accept a command on that ageing piece of crap.
As many others have said. All this is a product of ill thought out knee jerk reactions to problem in other airlines.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 302
Likes: 40
From: Building Site
6100,
So actually you do agree with me.. With the command requirements as they stand now, DEC A310 are 'ok', since no F/O meeting the requirement (maybe a few exceptions) would prefer the A310 over the A330.
I can't agree more that the 3 year requirement is complete bs. A minimum amount of hours, hours on type and factoring of hours for previous command experience is all ok, and if they really want to, maybe one year in the company to get used to EK sop's and stuff...
In my opinion the 3 year rule proves a lack of trust in EK's own recruitment and training department. Weren't we all screened for future commands when we had to come over to Dubai for some interview and to assemble trolleys?? Didn't we all go through EK training after we joined? Isn't there a constant assessment in every PPC for command skills? Don't we have to go through a final assessment before starting an upgrade course? And even then they prefer to take in DEC's with either no wide body experience, no glass cockpit experience or no pax experience or a combination of those, putting them ahead of EK F/O's because of a stupid 3 year rule...
But that's actually another discussion.. WITHIN the actual recruitment/upgrade policy, I'm ok with DEC A310, as long as they don't take in even 1 DEC A330/B777. Wether the policy is ok? NO NO NO!!!!
Reminds me of another question regarding B777, but I'll start a new topic on that one..
MR8
So actually you do agree with me.. With the command requirements as they stand now, DEC A310 are 'ok', since no F/O meeting the requirement (maybe a few exceptions) would prefer the A310 over the A330.
I can't agree more that the 3 year requirement is complete bs. A minimum amount of hours, hours on type and factoring of hours for previous command experience is all ok, and if they really want to, maybe one year in the company to get used to EK sop's and stuff...
In my opinion the 3 year rule proves a lack of trust in EK's own recruitment and training department. Weren't we all screened for future commands when we had to come over to Dubai for some interview and to assemble trolleys?? Didn't we all go through EK training after we joined? Isn't there a constant assessment in every PPC for command skills? Don't we have to go through a final assessment before starting an upgrade course? And even then they prefer to take in DEC's with either no wide body experience, no glass cockpit experience or no pax experience or a combination of those, putting them ahead of EK F/O's because of a stupid 3 year rule...
But that's actually another discussion.. WITHIN the actual recruitment/upgrade policy, I'm ok with DEC A310, as long as they don't take in even 1 DEC A330/B777. Wether the policy is ok? NO NO NO!!!!
Reminds me of another question regarding B777, but I'll start a new topic on that one..
MR8
