EK Profit Share
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Desert Nomad
There appears to be more in common than just our user names.
You are right on the money with your initial and rebuttal posts.
A short reply to some other less salubrious comments
1) A bonus is just that.
2) Where did this convoluted idea of 4 weeks = 20 days come from? Another misnomer.
3) Who wants to build prison fences anyway.
4) Bothered about your conditions and on the way? Goodbye.
There appears to be more in common than just our user names.
You are right on the money with your initial and rebuttal posts.
A short reply to some other less salubrious comments
1) A bonus is just that.
2) Where did this convoluted idea of 4 weeks = 20 days come from? Another misnomer.
3) Who wants to build prison fences anyway.
4) Bothered about your conditions and on the way? Goodbye.
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Desert Nomad,
Are you a pilot,within EK?
If so,I think your suggestion is naive in the extreme.
Do you seriously believe,there would be an honest answer,to a serious relevant question,concerning T&Cs,pay,FTL etc etc with NO retribution??
I suggest to you,whilst we are vocal,this forum is virtually the only outlet for all of us to do so.To express your views,no matter how legitimate or correct,in the presence of the "leadership" would be the equivalent of driving the wrong way down the Sheik Z highway with your eyes closed.
Actually come to think of it,even the correct way.
Off to the pub.QB
Are you a pilot,within EK?
If so,I think your suggestion is naive in the extreme.
Do you seriously believe,there would be an honest answer,to a serious relevant question,concerning T&Cs,pay,FTL etc etc with NO retribution??
I suggest to you,whilst we are vocal,this forum is virtually the only outlet for all of us to do so.To express your views,no matter how legitimate or correct,in the presence of the "leadership" would be the equivalent of driving the wrong way down the Sheik Z highway with your eyes closed.
Actually come to think of it,even the correct way.
Off to the pub.QB
Desert Nomad is a sales manager. Not that there is anything wrong with that!
Don
Don
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Global Nomad wrote:
"A short reply to some other less salubrious comments
1) A bonus is just that."
I actually agree with you but two years ago, our dearly departed HOFO wrote to us stating that our 3% + 2% + profit share actually added up to a generous 12.5% pay rise over the previous year.
Employing the same logic (the company's, not mine), we have actually taken a pay cut over the previous year. That during a time that the company "is making record profits" and even the government is admitting that the rising cost of living deserves some recompense.
At the end of the day, our compensation should be determined by supply and demand. What has annoyed many of us is that when the standard Emirates package for pilots was not enough to attract Direct Entry Captains, (a sign that they are not paying "market rates") they raised the package for new captains and completely ignored those of us who have been loyal employees here for a number of years. When we voiced our dismay, we were told that we were lazy and didn't deserve what we were already getting. Next, the company imposed a unilateral change in our terms and conditions stating that it was a cost neutral adjustment. I don't know too many people for whom it has not been a pay reduction. This on top of an imposed increase in productivity of questionable legality and with obvious safety implications.
At every airline that I have ever worked at, there has been some resentment of flight crew, some of which, we might even have brought on ourselves. What I have never seen before is a company that so indulges that resentment through its policies and management (or lack thereof). In the end, if the company does not do something to address these issues, then over time people will leave. They have begun to leave much sooner than I would have thought and barring any change, that will continue. Additionally, spaces in new hire classes are going unfilled. With airplanes coming, Emirates is going to have to weigh up the costs of continuing as before versus making some changes.
The really bizarre part of all of this is that for years, the company seemed to recognize those intangible issues that cost little but generated good will and kept people coming. They extracted their pound of flesh but not to the ridiculous lengths that we have seen recently. If someone flew his allotted 85 hours and was able to squeeze a few days off in here or there, well that was okay. Now, there is such a frenzy to cut costs, that common sense has been thrown out of the window. Managers are purely worried about their own budgets with little regard to the impact on the company overall. As long as they save Dh 5, they don't care if their action actually costs the company 10. As long as it comes out of someone else's budget. This whole time factoring fiasco has the potential to cost this company a lot more than it initially saved.
As far as your remark that if we don't like it we should leave. Don't worry, that's exactly what will happen, but it won't happen overnight. Most of us will watch developments, float our CV's and when the right job comes along, will weigh it up against what we have here and make a business decision. One thing that I can tell you is that the company has forfeit any loyalty that might be entered into that equation. Only time will tell if they have been needlessly careless or shrewd businessmen.
"A short reply to some other less salubrious comments
1) A bonus is just that."
I actually agree with you but two years ago, our dearly departed HOFO wrote to us stating that our 3% + 2% + profit share actually added up to a generous 12.5% pay rise over the previous year.
Employing the same logic (the company's, not mine), we have actually taken a pay cut over the previous year. That during a time that the company "is making record profits" and even the government is admitting that the rising cost of living deserves some recompense.
At the end of the day, our compensation should be determined by supply and demand. What has annoyed many of us is that when the standard Emirates package for pilots was not enough to attract Direct Entry Captains, (a sign that they are not paying "market rates") they raised the package for new captains and completely ignored those of us who have been loyal employees here for a number of years. When we voiced our dismay, we were told that we were lazy and didn't deserve what we were already getting. Next, the company imposed a unilateral change in our terms and conditions stating that it was a cost neutral adjustment. I don't know too many people for whom it has not been a pay reduction. This on top of an imposed increase in productivity of questionable legality and with obvious safety implications.
At every airline that I have ever worked at, there has been some resentment of flight crew, some of which, we might even have brought on ourselves. What I have never seen before is a company that so indulges that resentment through its policies and management (or lack thereof). In the end, if the company does not do something to address these issues, then over time people will leave. They have begun to leave much sooner than I would have thought and barring any change, that will continue. Additionally, spaces in new hire classes are going unfilled. With airplanes coming, Emirates is going to have to weigh up the costs of continuing as before versus making some changes.
The really bizarre part of all of this is that for years, the company seemed to recognize those intangible issues that cost little but generated good will and kept people coming. They extracted their pound of flesh but not to the ridiculous lengths that we have seen recently. If someone flew his allotted 85 hours and was able to squeeze a few days off in here or there, well that was okay. Now, there is such a frenzy to cut costs, that common sense has been thrown out of the window. Managers are purely worried about their own budgets with little regard to the impact on the company overall. As long as they save Dh 5, they don't care if their action actually costs the company 10. As long as it comes out of someone else's budget. This whole time factoring fiasco has the potential to cost this company a lot more than it initially saved.
As far as your remark that if we don't like it we should leave. Don't worry, that's exactly what will happen, but it won't happen overnight. Most of us will watch developments, float our CV's and when the right job comes along, will weigh it up against what we have here and make a business decision. One thing that I can tell you is that the company has forfeit any loyalty that might be entered into that equation. Only time will tell if they have been needlessly careless or shrewd businessmen.
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Enjoyed that read- well said,
I also believe that anything less than a 10% raise ( 3+7 % ), would effectively be a pay reduction with the current levels of inflation. The continued escalation is prices is a certainty, and we need to keep pace.
I also believe that anything less than a 10% raise ( 3+7 % ), would effectively be a pay reduction with the current levels of inflation. The continued escalation is prices is a certainty, and we need to keep pace.
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Hi guys,
I don't know why you are missing the issue or combining the
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EK Profit Share
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with the salary increase.
Usually, Emirates Chairman's briefing is to inform all EK grop managers and above (Pilots respectfully included) of the EK financial L&P account and to tell you of the bonus that company has kindly granted to staff.
I don't know why you are missing the issue or combining the
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EK Profit Share
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with the salary increase.
Usually, Emirates Chairman's briefing is to inform all EK grop managers and above (Pilots respectfully included) of the EK financial L&P account and to tell you of the bonus that company has kindly granted to staff.
Last edited by soompak; 30th Apr 2005 at 23:10.
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Nice One Trimotor
Hi,
What an erudite and intriguing observation. Certainly the attitudes you describe are prevalent in this society. I'll say it whilst others think it but have you checked the 'other' date on the front page of the Gulf News????
What an erudite and intriguing observation. Certainly the attitudes you describe are prevalent in this society. I'll say it whilst others think it but have you checked the 'other' date on the front page of the Gulf News????
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I would like to see this management of ours run a vote on how many pilots are satisfied with the "package" that some of our own are seemingly so happy with?
It can naturally be anonymous.
I wonder if they would even dare venture into something like that?
Check 'Six'
It can naturally be anonymous.
I wonder if they would even dare venture into something like that?
Check 'Six'
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QB,
No not a pilot as Don pointed out. Not sure what his point was but if he has an issue would be nice if he came out and said it.
My thought was that someone who has handed in their notice or knows that they will certainly hand in their notice couldhave got up and spoken on his own behalf and that of others. That person would certainly have nothing to loose. While at the same time it would open the eyes of the rest of general management within EK so that they could also start trying to put pressure on their senior managers to do something.
If you want better T&Cs it wont be just across the cockpit crew it would be across the whole of the EK group. The cost of putting an additional 15% on to everyones salaries. That's 25,000 staff would cost a fortune and one small and all be it important group isn't going to justify it. You need to engage with other areas of EK and not just keep your own little clique. No point in alienating yourselves when others have the ability and desire to try and help. There is a knock on effect for changes in every department. If pilots start to leave there's a huge impact. And yes Don, if T&C's are not good for even the sales teams they will eave and you will get a low quality sales force which means you get fewer bums on seats and your T&Cs will never improve. You're not the only one out there that makes an airline work you know...
No not a pilot as Don pointed out. Not sure what his point was but if he has an issue would be nice if he came out and said it.
My thought was that someone who has handed in their notice or knows that they will certainly hand in their notice couldhave got up and spoken on his own behalf and that of others. That person would certainly have nothing to loose. While at the same time it would open the eyes of the rest of general management within EK so that they could also start trying to put pressure on their senior managers to do something.
If you want better T&Cs it wont be just across the cockpit crew it would be across the whole of the EK group. The cost of putting an additional 15% on to everyones salaries. That's 25,000 staff would cost a fortune and one small and all be it important group isn't going to justify it. You need to engage with other areas of EK and not just keep your own little clique. No point in alienating yourselves when others have the ability and desire to try and help. There is a knock on effect for changes in every department. If pilots start to leave there's a huge impact. And yes Don, if T&C's are not good for even the sales teams they will eave and you will get a low quality sales force which means you get fewer bums on seats and your T&Cs will never improve. You're not the only one out there that makes an airline work you know...
Calm down tiger. No issue at all. Hence the "not that there is anything wrong with that" comment. Don't tell me that EK T&Cs have you on edge as well?
Don
Don
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Desert Nomad is Wrong
Now here's a first, me siding with Don'meov:
Desert Nomad says:
"improved T&Cs wont be just across the cockpit crew it would be across the whole of the EK group"
That's patently wrong
If you'll just take a quick peek at the Flight International careers section you will find that where there had been one or two airlines looking for captains each week there were eighteen in the last week alone. One in particular I note is now offering 25% more than they were less than half a year ago.
If you can point us to a site where there are desperation-tinged advertisements for airline sales staff and cabin cleaners at 25% wage premiums with signing bonuses, you might bring us on side to your "across the the whole of EK group" dream....
Desert Nomad says:
"improved T&Cs wont be just across the cockpit crew it would be across the whole of the EK group"
That's patently wrong
If you'll just take a quick peek at the Flight International careers section you will find that where there had been one or two airlines looking for captains each week there were eighteen in the last week alone. One in particular I note is now offering 25% more than they were less than half a year ago.
If you can point us to a site where there are desperation-tinged advertisements for airline sales staff and cabin cleaners at 25% wage premiums with signing bonuses, you might bring us on side to your "across the the whole of EK group" dream....
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Don,
My apologies to you. I just assumed, obviously wrongly, that the comment was sarcastic and reacted. The morale across every department is particularly low. Haven't heard anything other than a moan and groan so far today.
Dropp,
The point I was trying to say was that if there is to be a pay rise it would be across the group. In terms of sales jobs there are many other organisations out there that offer better T&C's than here. For one thing this is the only place I know of that do NOT incentivise sales staff with commissions. But a bit like you guys we love the work we do and try to be as professional as we can and support the organisation that was and still could be very supportive of all staff. Maybe it will take something drastic for them to wake up and review things, I hope not...
My apologies to you. I just assumed, obviously wrongly, that the comment was sarcastic and reacted. The morale across every department is particularly low. Haven't heard anything other than a moan and groan so far today.
Dropp,
The point I was trying to say was that if there is to be a pay rise it would be across the group. In terms of sales jobs there are many other organisations out there that offer better T&C's than here. For one thing this is the only place I know of that do NOT incentivise sales staff with commissions. But a bit like you guys we love the work we do and try to be as professional as we can and support the organisation that was and still could be very supportive of all staff. Maybe it will take something drastic for them to wake up and review things, I hope not...
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DN,
You are right in that an across the board pay increase would be a significant extra expense. However, EK's personnel costs are extremely low compared to the industry average. Our employees cost us about 17.5% of the airlines total operating costs. Even a 15% increase would only boost the employee costs to around 20% which would still be considerably less than say BA or even SIA!
Ghost
You are right in that an across the board pay increase would be a significant extra expense. However, EK's personnel costs are extremely low compared to the industry average. Our employees cost us about 17.5% of the airlines total operating costs. Even a 15% increase would only boost the employee costs to around 20% which would still be considerably less than say BA or even SIA!
Ghost
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Ghost
...and that's one of the reasons why Emirates post such respectable profits....
DN
Don's not being sarcastic, his intentions are perfectly legitimate so it's probably a breeding thing I suspect.
This thread is on the precipice of becoming sensible. Civility at last?
...and that's one of the reasons why Emirates post such respectable profits....
DN
Don's not being sarcastic, his intentions are perfectly legitimate so it's probably a breeding thing I suspect.
This thread is on the precipice of becoming sensible. Civility at last?
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Globey,
SIA manage to make a profit and even BA too. Bottom line is that the profit for this year has gone up, whilst the T&Cs have gone down. AAR said it was cost neutral, and it was.....to the company. Sadly not to the crews! I for one have contributed 40% to my own profit share in the last 5 months due to the changed O/T targets. If it had been a year since the introduction of the new T&Cs, I would have ended up with effectively no profit share due to loss of overtime compared to last year.
Cerberus
SIA manage to make a profit and even BA too. Bottom line is that the profit for this year has gone up, whilst the T&Cs have gone down. AAR said it was cost neutral, and it was.....to the company. Sadly not to the crews! I for one have contributed 40% to my own profit share in the last 5 months due to the changed O/T targets. If it had been a year since the introduction of the new T&Cs, I would have ended up with effectively no profit share due to loss of overtime compared to last year.
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PAY RISE - IT WILL NEVER COME
How long does it take for someone maybe local or otherwise in the hierachy of management to realise that EK has made shed loads of money,the profits are up, new routes going well, we're taking over Asia, Europe and Australasia, so things look great, but also to notice that morale is down, pay is going down in relation to costs IE inflation in Dubai and generally people in the airline are p*ssed off.
I've resigned myself to the fact that as long as there is sand in the desert nothing wil change at EK. Best I hunker down, keep my head below the parapet and work to rule, bid for max days off and do as little as possible.
Bye for now off to work, max hours as usual, few days off, EK keep discovering ( the SH*T)
I've resigned myself to the fact that as long as there is sand in the desert nothing wil change at EK. Best I hunker down, keep my head below the parapet and work to rule, bid for max days off and do as little as possible.
Bye for now off to work, max hours as usual, few days off, EK keep discovering ( the SH*T)
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It is likely that any changes in salary will be announced within the next weeks. Traditionally, and I forget this at briefing time, salary adjustments are handed out in May and become effective in June salary.
There is still a chance that there will be a rise, all be it a very slim chance...
There is still a chance that there will be a rise, all be it a very slim chance...
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In that case DN,I think the slide will continue.
2 more pilots quit today,they need to be replaced,trained,as do their replacements.That takes time, and money.
Oh,and then we need to hire more,to meet the expansion so i think a small pay correction will not address why this state exists in the first place.
Off to the pub QB
2 more pilots quit today,they need to be replaced,trained,as do their replacements.That takes time, and money.
Oh,and then we need to hire more,to meet the expansion so i think a small pay correction will not address why this state exists in the first place.
Off to the pub QB