B777 pilots @ EK
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B777 pilots @ EK
Would someone give a hint how does your roster looks like B777 guys? How many Block hours / Days off (in block, if any?) / the lenght of duty trips etc. I believe you guys are working your a.... off, but I would be appreciate for realistic info
How much do you work overtime, and how is the overtime paid? Thanks
How much do you work overtime, and how is the overtime paid? Thanks
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Between 8 and 16 days off per month depending on many factors. It really doesn't do any good to expalin it all now because with the arrival of the -300ERs it is going to change a lot, especially if we start doing more long haul.
The trips range from 1 day out and backs to an 11 day pairing that has 7 nights in Melbourne. Most of the European trips are 2/3 day trips with a 24 hour layover. The Asian trips tend to be 3 to 6 days with the Australian trips the longest at 8 and 11 days.
Personally, I fly a few hours of overtime every other month on average. The overtime threshold is based on the number of days in the month. In February it was 70, that would be the low side. In a 31 day month it is something like 76, paid at 400 Dirhams an hour.
TP
The trips range from 1 day out and backs to an 11 day pairing that has 7 nights in Melbourne. Most of the European trips are 2/3 day trips with a 24 hour layover. The Asian trips tend to be 3 to 6 days with the Australian trips the longest at 8 and 11 days.
Personally, I fly a few hours of overtime every other month on average. The overtime threshold is based on the number of days in the month. In February it was 70, that would be the low side. In a 31 day month it is something like 76, paid at 400 Dirhams an hour.
TP
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As always
Important to point out that overtime is based on rostered actual block hours only. i.e if you do a Doha return and have delays resulting in a 8 hour duty day, you will get credit for only the two block hours that were rostered.
There is no credit for reserve duties or simulator proficiency checks (4 days every 6 months). There is no credit for leave or ground duties. i.e you can have 2 weeks leave, then fly 70 hours in the remaining 16 days and there will be no overtime.
When operating as a line pilot, ground duties etc are not a big factor as there are only a few of these each year (probably around 10 or 12, including sims) but reserve duties are a big issue. In theroy the company can fly you up to your overtime limit, then put you on reserve for the rest of the month and you will not receive any credit for the reserves. I dont know if this actually happens, but the rules allow it. In fact they actually encourage it.
like most companies i suspect. You have to look fairly closely at what is actually happening to work out how much you are likely to be paid for a normal months work.
In the entire time I have been here (between 6 and 7 years) i have probably done maybe 4 or 5 months of overtime (777). I actively avoid it, so it probably isn't representative, but that is how it has been for me. Having said that, i have worked many months where i was right up to the overtime limit, but didn't go above it.
Important to point out that overtime is based on rostered actual block hours only. i.e if you do a Doha return and have delays resulting in a 8 hour duty day, you will get credit for only the two block hours that were rostered.
There is no credit for reserve duties or simulator proficiency checks (4 days every 6 months). There is no credit for leave or ground duties. i.e you can have 2 weeks leave, then fly 70 hours in the remaining 16 days and there will be no overtime.
When operating as a line pilot, ground duties etc are not a big factor as there are only a few of these each year (probably around 10 or 12, including sims) but reserve duties are a big issue. In theroy the company can fly you up to your overtime limit, then put you on reserve for the rest of the month and you will not receive any credit for the reserves. I dont know if this actually happens, but the rules allow it. In fact they actually encourage it.
like most companies i suspect. You have to look fairly closely at what is actually happening to work out how much you are likely to be paid for a normal months work.
In the entire time I have been here (between 6 and 7 years) i have probably done maybe 4 or 5 months of overtime (777). I actively avoid it, so it probably isn't representative, but that is how it has been for me. Having said that, i have worked many months where i was right up to the overtime limit, but didn't go above it.
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Thank You Typhoonpilot & 6110
Thanks guys for this information. I am sure the rosters might change a bit sincre the arrival of B777-300ER's. If I understand correctly, there are quite a few of ER's coming in.
What is the avarage upgrade from the right- to the left seat on B777, and how does the future looks like in this fleet?
What is the avarage upgrade from the right- to the left seat on B777, and how does the future looks like in this fleet?
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The roster, pay, upgrade policy, is constantly under review and it changes, without prior notice and consultation with the pilots. What we are telling you here today might not be true in a few days times as Emirates changes its policy to suit its current needs. Upgrade time on the Boeing 777 is at present 3 years, unless you have more than 8000 hours total time, and more than 2000 hours PIC time on jets more than 55 tonnes, all prior to joining Emirates in which case you are eligible for an accelerated command in 18 months if no suitable candidates are available ahead of your siniority. All 200 FOs on the 777 at present have the requirements so you would be upgraded in turn after them. Once that pool has dried out, Emirates could cross-fleet upgrade which it does not do at present, or they could hire DEC as they did on the airbus, although there were suitable candidates, or they might then promote guys who fit the 18 month criteria. No one knows how they will do it, and as the past has proven what we say or want, or even what you are told or what you expect has no bearing on the final management decision. The airbus fleet wait is at present under management's estimates 3 years and 10 months. They are short though as we speak of about 18 captains, and there are still two more 340-500 to come this fall thus more guys will be needed. The airbus fleet has 380 captains and the same amount of FOs, so there you go, make your calculations regarding upgrade time. Some say 3,4,5 years. It all depends if they hire DECs or not etc. They will need under their estimates 480 captains on the A380 when it comes, and no one knows if they will crew it with upgrades, transfers, DEC, or anything else they come up with.
For the overtime they are paying at present once you pass the 76, or 78 hour scheduled block time, not including swaps though, or actual block time due to a diversion, or etc. Most of the guys on the airbus 330/340 fleet do get some overtime, depending how actively you bid for flights, call in to help crewing with the mess they are in etc.
There are rumours though going around, that they are considering stopping the overtime payments alltogether since we are short of pilots, and now that the GCAA has told Emirates that factoring hours is not legal, they must hire more pilots and still keep the budget under control. The idea behind stoping overtime is that Emirates Pilots have a fixed salary and not a flight pay portion. We are contracted to fly 900 a year, and we cannot fly more than that. That average would be around 76 hours a month. Since we do not lose money when we fly less than 76, why should we gain money when we fly more than 76? That is how they are thinking at present, and if they give a small payrise, and a small profit share they will probably introduce this "new more fair system for pilots".... In any case it would only upset about 30% of the total pilot population as the Boeing and the 330 fleets do not have overtime as a rule, and since they have upset 100% of the pilot population in the past and got away with it, 30% is realy a non event...
Keep Discovering guys. What all of us have said here, and what you will find out if you join is that the contract you sign is not worth the paper it is printed on, and unlike in Europe, here you have no protection against erosion of your T&Cs and management decides what is best for you....
For the overtime they are paying at present once you pass the 76, or 78 hour scheduled block time, not including swaps though, or actual block time due to a diversion, or etc. Most of the guys on the airbus 330/340 fleet do get some overtime, depending how actively you bid for flights, call in to help crewing with the mess they are in etc.
There are rumours though going around, that they are considering stopping the overtime payments alltogether since we are short of pilots, and now that the GCAA has told Emirates that factoring hours is not legal, they must hire more pilots and still keep the budget under control. The idea behind stoping overtime is that Emirates Pilots have a fixed salary and not a flight pay portion. We are contracted to fly 900 a year, and we cannot fly more than that. That average would be around 76 hours a month. Since we do not lose money when we fly less than 76, why should we gain money when we fly more than 76? That is how they are thinking at present, and if they give a small payrise, and a small profit share they will probably introduce this "new more fair system for pilots".... In any case it would only upset about 30% of the total pilot population as the Boeing and the 330 fleets do not have overtime as a rule, and since they have upset 100% of the pilot population in the past and got away with it, 30% is realy a non event...
Keep Discovering guys. What all of us have said here, and what you will find out if you join is that the contract you sign is not worth the paper it is printed on, and unlike in Europe, here you have no protection against erosion of your T&Cs and management decides what is best for you....
Last edited by EZGOEK330FO; 3rd Apr 2005 at 17:52.
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Thanks AZGOEK330FO
I've been offered 2 starting date, one in few weeks, which I cannot do and the second in July. I understand the situation where EK is at the moment. It's very difficult for the company too, but to hire DEC's will produce more "bad blood" around the current FO's who are ready to upgrade.
Thank you, I can see that you spent a lot of time to write the answer above, and I am surprised you didn't sound like many other fellows at EK
, something positive though 
Enjoy...
Thank you, I can see that you spent a lot of time to write the answer above, and I am surprised you didn't sound like many other fellows at EK
, something positive though Enjoy...
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jarops,
Sorry mate, I read EXGOA330FOs post twice and could not find anything positive in it at all...
I do, however, agree with all the he wrote, with the exception that I do not believe that the expansion can keep pace with their plans and will slow a little, thus promotion time will lengthen accordingly.
Sorry mate, I read EXGOA330FOs post twice and could not find anything positive in it at all...
I do, however, agree with all the he wrote, with the exception that I do not believe that the expansion can keep pace with their plans and will slow a little, thus promotion time will lengthen accordingly.
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Thanks! The positive thing I find out was the text he wrote, it was not full of unhappy and blaiming type of text. I agree with you what you wrote. The expansion rate is very fast and it's difficult to keep together.
I understand that the upgrade will take longer than Mr.EXGOA wrote. I wrote some time a go to these pages and I was asking hints of EK; should I, LH seat B757 guy take the offer to join EK. I was executed in one minute!!! Stupid....moran...and all this kind of text. But, why I am ready to take a step back??? That's something the most of the people in these pages will never understud. I can only say...unsecure job situation at the current job, continuity etc. It's difficult decision, but whatever the decision is the person should not look over the shoulder!
I have been wondering many evenings; Why all those people stay at EK if that really is so bad,, bond??? I don't think so. I understand that T & Cs are getting worse and there is very little respect to the flightcrew's regarding overtime, facored hours etc.
As long I am not in DXB, I can always call off the offer. But, I am trying to see 5-10 years a head of the time. I don't have to stay in EK if that is really "so bad" like many people in pprune says. But, the status of qualifications and experince will be far better than on the ageing Boeing 757 model.
I understand that the upgrade will take longer than Mr.EXGOA wrote. I wrote some time a go to these pages and I was asking hints of EK; should I, LH seat B757 guy take the offer to join EK. I was executed in one minute!!! Stupid....moran...and all this kind of text. But, why I am ready to take a step back??? That's something the most of the people in these pages will never understud. I can only say...unsecure job situation at the current job, continuity etc. It's difficult decision, but whatever the decision is the person should not look over the shoulder!
I have been wondering many evenings; Why all those people stay at EK if that really is so bad,, bond??? I don't think so. I understand that T & Cs are getting worse and there is very little respect to the flightcrew's regarding overtime, facored hours etc.
As long I am not in DXB, I can always call off the offer. But, I am trying to see 5-10 years a head of the time. I don't have to stay in EK if that is really "so bad" like many people in pprune says. But, the status of qualifications and experince will be far better than on the ageing Boeing 757 model.
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Jarops,
In my opinion people are not leaving Emirates, because as far as expat jobs go, Emirates is average. It is probably better to be here than Singapore, and it is probably better to be here than in Hong Kong. However I am not a big fan of the far east so I have not realy bothered looking in to the whole package on offer by Cathay, Singapore, or Dragonair. Do not forget that moving family, children and disrupting schooling is not ideal for any one. My circle of friends, and my self included are waiting for interviews back home in the UK from Virgin and BA. I do not see the point in leaving Emirates and going back to EZ, or JET2 etc, just to bail ship because Emirates is not what it appears to be. I made the mistake once in leaving too quickly to join the shining ship of Emirates, so this time I am waiting my turn to join the airline that I realy want. There are those though, not many, who have had enough and are leaving for the likes of EZ or RYR. Most of the guys who do not consider the European market, either do not have jar licences, and or they do not have European passports. There are not many places to go from here as you can see if you do not have the fortune of holding the right passport and or the right licence. The GCAA licence is probably a great licence to show your grand children, but I do not think it would get you any jobs. This place realy brings out the side of people you would not see in other civilized places because there are no rules that must be followed. Rules are here to protect the company, and to be changed if they do not suit the company at any time. If circumstances change, brilliant management just changes the rules, rather than finding solutions around the problem. Look at TCAS for example. He comes from BA, yet at his age, and with the money that he has made and a full pension from BA he still changed quickly to adapt to Emirates standards. He sits there as our VPFO and still aproves of roster patterns that knows are illegal by any CAA, GCAA, ICAO standard. He does not have the character to even care about his reputation. Most of upper management look at the bottom line which is bonuses in their pockets, and when they leave to go back from where they came from they will have a "golden " lining in their pockets, while us flying will have dirhams in our pockets. No one seems to care that if a bird hits the ground with punters on board because of crew fatigue they will all be accountable and responsible for peoples lives. But here in Emirates we just look at the next days problems, and we will all, FO, when no longer needed. The airline is run on autopilot, and all of us working here including upper management are just hanging on for the ride as long as it lasts, or until such time we find something better.
Finaly one last comment, just because there are no better solutions out there for some pilots does not mean that Emirates is the airline of choice, nor does a package become good when compared with locost, airlines going out of business, downsizing, or african airlines excluding SA of course. I am sure you would not even consider coming here if your airline was doing fine. That is how you measure in my books the airline of choice, would you leave to join if everything is ok back home? If not then Emirates is an airline of temporary solution...
Emirates is treating us like this today when they are expanding and making profits. I hate to be around and see what is coming our way when we stop the expansion or lose money.....
Keep discovering.....
In my opinion people are not leaving Emirates, because as far as expat jobs go, Emirates is average. It is probably better to be here than Singapore, and it is probably better to be here than in Hong Kong. However I am not a big fan of the far east so I have not realy bothered looking in to the whole package on offer by Cathay, Singapore, or Dragonair. Do not forget that moving family, children and disrupting schooling is not ideal for any one. My circle of friends, and my self included are waiting for interviews back home in the UK from Virgin and BA. I do not see the point in leaving Emirates and going back to EZ, or JET2 etc, just to bail ship because Emirates is not what it appears to be. I made the mistake once in leaving too quickly to join the shining ship of Emirates, so this time I am waiting my turn to join the airline that I realy want. There are those though, not many, who have had enough and are leaving for the likes of EZ or RYR. Most of the guys who do not consider the European market, either do not have jar licences, and or they do not have European passports. There are not many places to go from here as you can see if you do not have the fortune of holding the right passport and or the right licence. The GCAA licence is probably a great licence to show your grand children, but I do not think it would get you any jobs. This place realy brings out the side of people you would not see in other civilized places because there are no rules that must be followed. Rules are here to protect the company, and to be changed if they do not suit the company at any time. If circumstances change, brilliant management just changes the rules, rather than finding solutions around the problem. Look at TCAS for example. He comes from BA, yet at his age, and with the money that he has made and a full pension from BA he still changed quickly to adapt to Emirates standards. He sits there as our VPFO and still aproves of roster patterns that knows are illegal by any CAA, GCAA, ICAO standard. He does not have the character to even care about his reputation. Most of upper management look at the bottom line which is bonuses in their pockets, and when they leave to go back from where they came from they will have a "golden " lining in their pockets, while us flying will have dirhams in our pockets. No one seems to care that if a bird hits the ground with punters on board because of crew fatigue they will all be accountable and responsible for peoples lives. But here in Emirates we just look at the next days problems, and we will all, FO, when no longer needed. The airline is run on autopilot, and all of us working here including upper management are just hanging on for the ride as long as it lasts, or until such time we find something better.
Finaly one last comment, just because there are no better solutions out there for some pilots does not mean that Emirates is the airline of choice, nor does a package become good when compared with locost, airlines going out of business, downsizing, or african airlines excluding SA of course. I am sure you would not even consider coming here if your airline was doing fine. That is how you measure in my books the airline of choice, would you leave to join if everything is ok back home? If not then Emirates is an airline of temporary solution...
Emirates is treating us like this today when they are expanding and making profits. I hate to be around and see what is coming our way when we stop the expansion or lose money.....
Keep discovering.....
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You got that right mate.100 % Spot on!
=================================
EZGOEK330FO / posted 4th April 2005 06:04 ;
................................................Emirates is treating us like this today when they are expanding and making profits. I hate to be around and see what is coming our way when we stop the expansion or lose money.....
Keep discovering.....
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EZGO,
Are you considering standing as an independant in the 5th May elections? I'd vote for you! Well said, I particularly liked
Again, very well said.
Are you considering standing as an independant in the 5th May elections? I'd vote for you! Well said, I particularly liked
I am sure you would not even consider coming here if your airline was doing fine. That is how you measure in my books the airline of choice, would you leave to join if everything is ok back home? If not then Emirates is an airline of temporary solution...
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IŽll keep Discovering
EZGOEK330FO has many good points on his messages. I have made my mind and I'll keep discovering. It seem like EK didn't count well enough their crew needs. Now, you are working until dropping...
Also, for the FO's who's been long enough at EK and closing up the upgrade will be very pissed off due to possible DEC's. That is very dissapointing moment. I hope the upper managment at EK realize soon enough that there are limited amount of qualified guys available.
I belive it's not only due to lack of sim slots. Obviously it's so much cheeper for the company to hire a DEC than upgrade one FO, giving him training and then to replace this FO by hiring new FO and to give a training to him too. Especially when time and crew shortage is present.
It requires more than fancy and shiny airplanes to relocate. The quality of life and the athmosphere where you work is the most important thing. I am sure that EK will find out soon, in a bitter way, that the CRM should extend well beyond the cockpit!
Also, for the FO's who's been long enough at EK and closing up the upgrade will be very pissed off due to possible DEC's. That is very dissapointing moment. I hope the upper managment at EK realize soon enough that there are limited amount of qualified guys available.
I belive it's not only due to lack of sim slots. Obviously it's so much cheeper for the company to hire a DEC than upgrade one FO, giving him training and then to replace this FO by hiring new FO and to give a training to him too. Especially when time and crew shortage is present.
It requires more than fancy and shiny airplanes to relocate. The quality of life and the athmosphere where you work is the most important thing. I am sure that EK will find out soon, in a bitter way, that the CRM should extend well beyond the cockpit!
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Interesting concept 'the company of choice!' All these resignations are leaving me dizzy but I do know for sure of 2 guys that are going; the question is whether or not they are different to the ones announced above. Problem is we all live on rumours, so much so that the company has bought out a 'rumour buster'.
EK do have a recruitment problem bought about by the 'flexible' contract, poor exchange rates and no doubt exacerbated by the loss of the recruitment team on mass. The recruitment process seemed pretty good to me but sadly we were already hurting for pilots at the end of last year and so couldn't spare them to ensure the quality of future candidates. Shortsighted?!?
Now EK seems to have become the company of choice for a whole different group of pilots and the trends are worrying. Particularly when management start to meddle in operational training issues and standards. Commercial acumen doesn't require you to watch out for the rocks. Still...another rumour...I have heard that we have unfilled 777 courses next month. How many ERs are coming?
I hear the recruitment manager was summoned to the ivory tower to discuss the problem. He welcomed it and had a solution, a change in the package for the better, and had comparative pay rates to back it up. Apparently he was told that his job was to get pilots at the current price.......ut oh!
Another thread speaks of AS's recent news letter which was all doom and gloom. He and the rest of the management blah on about the cost of oil but seem to have conveniently forgotten that whilst a lot of our costs are tied to the dollar, our revenues are received in local currencies which with the great current exchange rates means the dollars are rolling in at unprecedented levels. Sadly all the supermarkets in Dubai are tied to the Euro.
Factoring and Fatigue is all an 'F'ing mess! The rumours of increased hours limits are interesting but..another rumour.. I hear other regulators (from the southern hemisphere) may be pressing for sanity after a ludicrous number of ASRs relating to the subject.
Off to bed!
Cerberus
EK do have a recruitment problem bought about by the 'flexible' contract, poor exchange rates and no doubt exacerbated by the loss of the recruitment team on mass. The recruitment process seemed pretty good to me but sadly we were already hurting for pilots at the end of last year and so couldn't spare them to ensure the quality of future candidates. Shortsighted?!?
Now EK seems to have become the company of choice for a whole different group of pilots and the trends are worrying. Particularly when management start to meddle in operational training issues and standards. Commercial acumen doesn't require you to watch out for the rocks. Still...another rumour...I have heard that we have unfilled 777 courses next month. How many ERs are coming?
I hear the recruitment manager was summoned to the ivory tower to discuss the problem. He welcomed it and had a solution, a change in the package for the better, and had comparative pay rates to back it up. Apparently he was told that his job was to get pilots at the current price.......ut oh!
Another thread speaks of AS's recent news letter which was all doom and gloom. He and the rest of the management blah on about the cost of oil but seem to have conveniently forgotten that whilst a lot of our costs are tied to the dollar, our revenues are received in local currencies which with the great current exchange rates means the dollars are rolling in at unprecedented levels. Sadly all the supermarkets in Dubai are tied to the Euro.
Factoring and Fatigue is all an 'F'ing mess! The rumours of increased hours limits are interesting but..another rumour.. I hear other regulators (from the southern hemisphere) may be pressing for sanity after a ludicrous number of ASRs relating to the subject.
Off to bed!
Cerberus
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I was told that Etihad got off the ground because Emirates and Gulf wouldn't allow them to come on board at the right level. Now it is rumoured that Etihad have employed a european company to determine how attractive they must make their package to guarantee that they will be able to crew their aircraft with experienced crews.
They have got a lot of aircraft about to turn up, need crews and have the gawonga to make it happen. They have already accepted there is no need for a profit for 5 years whilst they build the brand. It is even rumoured that they have some of our local F/Os on hold to move when the aircraft arrive.
Heard this sort of stuff before, from people with quite strange agendas but it might make for an interesting summer.
Ghost
They have got a lot of aircraft about to turn up, need crews and have the gawonga to make it happen. They have already accepted there is no need for a profit for 5 years whilst they build the brand. It is even rumoured that they have some of our local F/Os on hold to move when the aircraft arrive.
Heard this sort of stuff before, from people with quite strange agendas but it might make for an interesting summer.
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 10th Apr 2005 at 17:14.
