The Emirates FACTS thread
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The Emirates FACTS thread
There's a lot of rubbish that's been written about Emirates here, both positive and negative, that is giving an incorrect impression. I think it's best if we stick to the facts. Rumours, such as only 2 out of 16 pilots turning up on their start day, are affecting all of us that work here as well as influencing those thta do want to join up. So sticking with the facts, here's a couple to dwell on.
Emirates are now suffering record numbers of pilots off sick. This is a coroborated fact and is, I believe, due to the extensive duties that are now being performed. Ultra long haul without the correct rest facilities, back to back duties involving combined rest days, only eight days off a month with duty months of well over 100 hours not uncommon. Trip patterens that can involve travelling from New Zealand to the US (The long way around!) with just a few days in between to recover before setting off again. No wonder many of the guys are sick.
Leave allocations for the forthcoming year cannot be given due to the available number of leave slots being full. Many pilots have been unable to have their annual entitlement awarded and have had to carry the leave forward.
If any other Emirates pilots have facts that they wish to share, please add to this thread.
Emirates are now suffering record numbers of pilots off sick. This is a coroborated fact and is, I believe, due to the extensive duties that are now being performed. Ultra long haul without the correct rest facilities, back to back duties involving combined rest days, only eight days off a month with duty months of well over 100 hours not uncommon. Trip patterens that can involve travelling from New Zealand to the US (The long way around!) with just a few days in between to recover before setting off again. No wonder many of the guys are sick.
Leave allocations for the forthcoming year cannot be given due to the available number of leave slots being full. Many pilots have been unable to have their annual entitlement awarded and have had to carry the leave forward.
If any other Emirates pilots have facts that they wish to share, please add to this thread.
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Next Fact:
I flew last night arriving home this morning. I slept as much as I could - 4 hours.
I am rostered to fly again tonight.
In accordance with the Ops Manual requirement to ensure I am well rested prior to flying, chapter 21 paragraph 1.1, I shall not be reporting for duty this evening.
Sorry to all on standby, just can't take any more...........
I flew last night arriving home this morning. I slept as much as I could - 4 hours.
I am rostered to fly again tonight.
In accordance with the Ops Manual requirement to ensure I am well rested prior to flying, chapter 21 paragraph 1.1, I shall not be reporting for duty this evening.
Sorry to all on standby, just can't take any more...........
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Facts:
Have been working over 100 hours every month in last 7 months.
Have been shafted with reserves and support sims after filled credit monthly limit when new payscam started.
Have been awarded 14 days of leave after personal intervention. Still have over 70 days to burn from previous years. No leaves for a third of drivers this year, so don't worry about bond in your contracts.
Constantly being rostered or called out on stby for long haul (ozz then NY) with 2 nights in between.
Spent 4 hours in suicidal traffic because had to pick up my passport in Ek office on my only day off in a week.
Called sick and slept for 3 days when I couldn't take it any more.
Will not be biologically able to work under such conditions for much longer. And it is going to get much worse. In the near future.
Have been working over 100 hours every month in last 7 months.
Have been shafted with reserves and support sims after filled credit monthly limit when new payscam started.
Have been awarded 14 days of leave after personal intervention. Still have over 70 days to burn from previous years. No leaves for a third of drivers this year, so don't worry about bond in your contracts.
Constantly being rostered or called out on stby for long haul (ozz then NY) with 2 nights in between.
Spent 4 hours in suicidal traffic because had to pick up my passport in Ek office on my only day off in a week.
Called sick and slept for 3 days when I couldn't take it any more.
Will not be biologically able to work under such conditions for much longer. And it is going to get much worse. In the near future.
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Facts
Managed to get 42 days leave this year,some of which first choice.
This months roster,3 europeans( deadhead on 2),2 very short turnrounds,2 standbys,5 days leave and 11 days off.
Just trying to balance the scales of doom & gloom!
Points noted,however,on this ultra longhaul flying and the lack of sufficient rest.Something really is going to have to be done if this Company wants to avoid half its Pilots off on long term Fatigue/Chronic stress and it's going to get worse by the sounds of it.Speaking to a Cathay Pilot in Jakarta recently,they get min 3 days off after any trip,4 days for the longer ones and 5 for the ultra longhaul.That's what we need! Friend just recently did back to back London with 14 hrs rest in Dubai. 2nd departure was middle of night! Aren't the EK Clinic supposed to get involved in this or are they there to treat the fatigue rather than prevent it.
I guess that if you pay the fiddler,he plays the tune that YOU want eh?
Managed to get 42 days leave this year,some of which first choice.
This months roster,3 europeans( deadhead on 2),2 very short turnrounds,2 standbys,5 days leave and 11 days off.
Just trying to balance the scales of doom & gloom!
Points noted,however,on this ultra longhaul flying and the lack of sufficient rest.Something really is going to have to be done if this Company wants to avoid half its Pilots off on long term Fatigue/Chronic stress and it's going to get worse by the sounds of it.Speaking to a Cathay Pilot in Jakarta recently,they get min 3 days off after any trip,4 days for the longer ones and 5 for the ultra longhaul.That's what we need! Friend just recently did back to back London with 14 hrs rest in Dubai. 2nd departure was middle of night! Aren't the EK Clinic supposed to get involved in this or are they there to treat the fatigue rather than prevent it.
I guess that if you pay the fiddler,he plays the tune that YOU want eh?
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Just a question out of intrest:
on the long haul and ultra long haul flights, how do you guys deal with FT/DT limitations? Heavy crew? Third pilot? Blocked seats where and how? Crew bunks? What about the cabin crew?
Just asking because it seems to become a big BIG problem and as we all know, we are just a couple of months behind in copying your shedules?
Good luck guys and plse continue to publish those facts. I am sure we here at QR will follow.
on the long haul and ultra long haul flights, how do you guys deal with FT/DT limitations? Heavy crew? Third pilot? Blocked seats where and how? Crew bunks? What about the cabin crew?
Just asking because it seems to become a big BIG problem and as we all know, we are just a couple of months behind in copying your shedules?
Good luck guys and plse continue to publish those facts. I am sure we here at QR will follow.
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dxb-syd-dxb 36hrs
dxb-syd-akl-syd dxb 24hrs in syd
Mar blocks not out til @ 25th
New shed coming for mar with additional 777
FTL for 4 pilot have a sep Ops Plan, in theory no limit
dxb-syd-akl-syd dxb 24hrs in syd
Mar blocks not out til @ 25th
New shed coming for mar with additional 777
FTL for 4 pilot have a sep Ops Plan, in theory no limit
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Disappointed,
Good theory but sadly this is PPrumourNE and anyone can write anything they like (Just like the Sunday Sport - Grandmother has alien baby!). You and I both know that 90% of the things that go on in any company are not known by those at the coalface. In EK it is probably even less than that because all of the pilots have been squeezed out of office jobs so that they can get them on the line flying.
Fact - EK are short of pilots! BYMONEK before you start saying but look at my roster, 30 days off and one trip to El Dorado I will caveat that by saying but not in all categories. It seems clear that the 340 does not have enough pilots to allow for a sensible working pattern but that may be by design. It could be argued that a decision may have been taken that paying a few pilots overtime is less costly than hiring new pilots. The reduction in flight hours recorded for augmented operations would appear to support this arguement. Alternatively we might be struggling to recruit pilots, maybe that is where the 777 rumour comes from. Whichever of these it is will determine whether, and how quickly, things will improve.
The thing I notice is that on the 330 some of the F/Os are pretty laid back and not working too hard. On the 340 some are being worked ridiculously; sadly the bidding system was supposed to protect us but doesn't. If you get the right roster (are senior enough) you can end up with overtime, days off and a decent quality of life. If not minimum days off are the order of the day. The fatigue (heart factor) model was removed from the bidding system, as I understand it, because we would have needed a lot more pilots to crunch the numbers. Wasn't there a doc who was in charge of fatigue? It was in the outer marker, trumpets blarring. It might be an interesting exercise to run the bidding system again with the heart factor applied to see whether there are any conflicts.
The problem must be starting to be noticed by the powers that be, I read that CPA had given us all thanks for working through 'unprecedented levels of sickness' at the end of last year. Now some of that might have been down to 'an unusually cold winter' but some was probably due to fatigue.
Sorry only one fact and some conjecture to try and make sense of it.
Ghost
Good theory but sadly this is PPrumourNE and anyone can write anything they like (Just like the Sunday Sport - Grandmother has alien baby!). You and I both know that 90% of the things that go on in any company are not known by those at the coalface. In EK it is probably even less than that because all of the pilots have been squeezed out of office jobs so that they can get them on the line flying.
Fact - EK are short of pilots! BYMONEK before you start saying but look at my roster, 30 days off and one trip to El Dorado I will caveat that by saying but not in all categories. It seems clear that the 340 does not have enough pilots to allow for a sensible working pattern but that may be by design. It could be argued that a decision may have been taken that paying a few pilots overtime is less costly than hiring new pilots. The reduction in flight hours recorded for augmented operations would appear to support this arguement. Alternatively we might be struggling to recruit pilots, maybe that is where the 777 rumour comes from. Whichever of these it is will determine whether, and how quickly, things will improve.
The thing I notice is that on the 330 some of the F/Os are pretty laid back and not working too hard. On the 340 some are being worked ridiculously; sadly the bidding system was supposed to protect us but doesn't. If you get the right roster (are senior enough) you can end up with overtime, days off and a decent quality of life. If not minimum days off are the order of the day. The fatigue (heart factor) model was removed from the bidding system, as I understand it, because we would have needed a lot more pilots to crunch the numbers. Wasn't there a doc who was in charge of fatigue? It was in the outer marker, trumpets blarring. It might be an interesting exercise to run the bidding system again with the heart factor applied to see whether there are any conflicts.
The problem must be starting to be noticed by the powers that be, I read that CPA had given us all thanks for working through 'unprecedented levels of sickness' at the end of last year. Now some of that might have been down to 'an unusually cold winter' but some was probably due to fatigue.
Sorry only one fact and some conjecture to try and make sense of it.
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 21st Feb 2005 at 16:56.
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Dissapointed,
I think you must not have been here for a long time just like me, and you have not realized that even the EK contract is not a fact but rather a rumour as it changes as more and more people get involved with it... Therefore it is only appropriate that the lads write about facts that are rumours or rumours that are facts since all this stems from the ultimate rumour/fact which is the contract.
Allas though TCAS is about to change this with his communication network to come in place soon, so when you do get shafted in the future you will know about it for a fact not hear the rumour first.....
40 days to go....
I think you must not have been here for a long time just like me, and you have not realized that even the EK contract is not a fact but rather a rumour as it changes as more and more people get involved with it... Therefore it is only appropriate that the lads write about facts that are rumours or rumours that are facts since all this stems from the ultimate rumour/fact which is the contract.
Allas though TCAS is about to change this with his communication network to come in place soon, so when you do get shafted in the future you will know about it for a fact not hear the rumour first.....
40 days to go....
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In EK hours for augmented crews are factored on a 4 man crew only 2/3rds count to your max limit of 100 hrs in 28 days and in the case of a 3 man crew ¾ is used.
The consequent is many A330/340 crews well over 100 hrs in 28days last month I did 104 in 22days, but as it was spread of 2 months and leave and ground duties added in, no overtime paid. With the loss of flying credit for leave and ground duties this also means if you take leave you have to make up the flying credit, in my case 8 days leave taken at the end of the month I did 79 hrs in 17 days with 3 days during and 3 days off prior to leave. Under the old system this was 101 credit. Thou the company deny it is doing it on purpose!!!!!
The latest rumor is with the change to the SYD/ AKL pattern B777 doing AKL via BKK, SYD. A340 crew (4 man) to operate DXB/ SYD Duty 1520 arr SYD 0645.
Rest 13:55 Depart same day 2110 SYD/DXB Duty 1605.
Wonder what annex that’s under??????
The consequent is many A330/340 crews well over 100 hrs in 28days last month I did 104 in 22days, but as it was spread of 2 months and leave and ground duties added in, no overtime paid. With the loss of flying credit for leave and ground duties this also means if you take leave you have to make up the flying credit, in my case 8 days leave taken at the end of the month I did 79 hrs in 17 days with 3 days during and 3 days off prior to leave. Under the old system this was 101 credit. Thou the company deny it is doing it on purpose!!!!!
The latest rumor is with the change to the SYD/ AKL pattern B777 doing AKL via BKK, SYD. A340 crew (4 man) to operate DXB/ SYD Duty 1520 arr SYD 0645.
Rest 13:55 Depart same day 2110 SYD/DXB Duty 1605.
Wonder what annex that’s under??????
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Annex is........ You fly them... not me... shut up or ship out.
You have one "right" and that is to go sick and then walk off the job.
There is a lot of "Premature mortality in your rosters" I think they know it and I know if they care with no crews they will do nothying about it.
It was the same in Gulf Air in 1982 when a Doctor told me all of this.
The insurance companies do not know it (yet) so you should if you wish to provide for your family insure your life heavily and fly these rosters as they will certainly kill you off, before a long and happy retirement at the new age of 65?
They are all heart and the pilots are on the wrong end of a ****ty stick.
If you do not like your roster tell them and walk.
You have one "right" and that is to go sick and then walk off the job.
There is a lot of "Premature mortality in your rosters" I think they know it and I know if they care with no crews they will do nothying about it.
It was the same in Gulf Air in 1982 when a Doctor told me all of this.
The insurance companies do not know it (yet) so you should if you wish to provide for your family insure your life heavily and fly these rosters as they will certainly kill you off, before a long and happy retirement at the new age of 65?
They are all heart and the pilots are on the wrong end of a ****ty stick.
If you do not like your roster tell them and walk.
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That will come under the Authorities brown envelope Annex 1.1 pg 1
"
Operators requiring deviations should contact the Authority in advance. Authority for a deviation will only be granted once the Operators flight pattern has been approved by the Authorities’ Inspectors from a suitable first class seat. This Seat shall be available to the inspector and any member his family at any time and to any destination fee of charge.
The Authority reserves the right to reduce rest periods, extend duty times, extend total flying hour limits and generally reduce safety until receipt of the Operators official request for approval. Such requests will only be granted when the Authority receives such requests in suitably padded brown envelopes, all submissions must have a resemblance of George Washington embossed on the submission, be submitted on light green paper 3" * 5"
Only Forms of the $100 series will be accepted.
All Submissions must contain a minimum of 500 original copies.
Copies of the Operators submissions and request for approval can be Fast Tracked, when the number of copies of the application significantly exceeds the minimum number of copies given above.
"
"
Operators requiring deviations should contact the Authority in advance. Authority for a deviation will only be granted once the Operators flight pattern has been approved by the Authorities’ Inspectors from a suitable first class seat. This Seat shall be available to the inspector and any member his family at any time and to any destination fee of charge.
The Authority reserves the right to reduce rest periods, extend duty times, extend total flying hour limits and generally reduce safety until receipt of the Operators official request for approval. Such requests will only be granted when the Authority receives such requests in suitably padded brown envelopes, all submissions must have a resemblance of George Washington embossed on the submission, be submitted on light green paper 3" * 5"
Only Forms of the $100 series will be accepted.
All Submissions must contain a minimum of 500 original copies.
Copies of the Operators submissions and request for approval can be Fast Tracked, when the number of copies of the application significantly exceeds the minimum number of copies given above.
"
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Not from here
I'd like to know who the operating Captain was on your Sydney and gently remind him to look at the min rest requirements. Min rest is 12 hours at base (12.30 after chocks on) If your duty is longer than 12 hours then your rest has to be increased to match the amount of time you've been on duty ie 15hr20min duty requires rest of 15hr20min.This has nothing to do with factorizing so they can't reduce it because there were 4 Pilots.It's the DUTY time that counts NOT flight duty period. If your facts are correct,that flight operated back illegally!
Ghost.
As you say,I can only comment from my perspective and I know it can vary amongst the fleet.There is still plenty of white left on the leave bids for B777. I wish I did have 30 days off although in February that might be difficult eh?
2 questions;
1) Heard that we now get credit for sim support?
2) I thought that the hours factorizing was only applicable for the time to enter log book for stick time etc.not interpreted the way that EK have to allow more flying a month.I am not familiar with the ultra longhaul 'yet' but this question should be asked on the main forum to see what the other Airlines do!
I'd like to know who the operating Captain was on your Sydney and gently remind him to look at the min rest requirements. Min rest is 12 hours at base (12.30 after chocks on) If your duty is longer than 12 hours then your rest has to be increased to match the amount of time you've been on duty ie 15hr20min duty requires rest of 15hr20min.This has nothing to do with factorizing so they can't reduce it because there were 4 Pilots.It's the DUTY time that counts NOT flight duty period. If your facts are correct,that flight operated back illegally!
Ghost.
As you say,I can only comment from my perspective and I know it can vary amongst the fleet.There is still plenty of white left on the leave bids for B777. I wish I did have 30 days off although in February that might be difficult eh?
2 questions;
1) Heard that we now get credit for sim support?
2) I thought that the hours factorizing was only applicable for the time to enter log book for stick time etc.not interpreted the way that EK have to allow more flying a month.I am not familiar with the ultra longhaul 'yet' but this question should be asked on the main forum to see what the other Airlines do!
Its a big resounding NO to SIM supports being paid. Also a big NO to being paid the money to work on a day off if you have above the min of 8 days off per month, ie: you will only be paid the work on day off money, if you have 8days off only in that month, and you are asked to work on one of these, and no other day off is given. Has taken me all this month to finally get the answer on this one from one of the grown ups!!! Remember FOM says SHOULD have 8 days off per month!
The factoring of hours does limit what you put in your log book. And this new lower number, is the number used to calculate the 100hrs per 28days. And yes, it is widely being used at the moment for Bus ops in EK. Something for you to look forward to BYMONEK.
Don
The factoring of hours does limit what you put in your log book. And this new lower number, is the number used to calculate the 100hrs per 28days. And yes, it is widely being used at the moment for Bus ops in EK. Something for you to look forward to BYMONEK.
Don
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Don
Thanks for the reply and no surprise then regarding sim support.I had heard that lots of guys going sick for them so thought there might be some truth in rumour.As for this hours factoring malarky, do you know if other Airlines such as Cathay,BA,Quantas use it?
BYMONEK
Thanks for the reply and no surprise then regarding sim support.I had heard that lots of guys going sick for them so thought there might be some truth in rumour.As for this hours factoring malarky, do you know if other Airlines such as Cathay,BA,Quantas use it?
BYMONEK