The Emirates FACTS thread
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BYMONEK
None of the airlines you mention uses the factoring. I have spoken to acquaintances in each of them (all pilots), and the response each time was "...Emirates does what?? That is unbelievable!..." My response each time was, "Keep discovering".
None of the airlines you mention uses the factoring. I have spoken to acquaintances in each of them (all pilots), and the response each time was "...Emirates does what?? That is unbelievable!..." My response each time was, "Keep discovering".
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No Releif in sight
Some facts....
The 330-340 ccq courses are finished after april for a minimum of 6 months....(as only 2 more 340s coming this year and some doubt as to the -600s coming at all).
Looks like the goodlife will remain on the 330.......for some .
With no transition upgrades you could probably leave EK now come back in 1 year as a new f/O on the 777 and still get a command quicker than waiting on the Airbus....
Management just cant understand why pilots cant work the same as most people in the UAE , 12 hrs a day six days a week for one tenth of the pay .. Whats the problem with the pilots , they (management) cant see it ......
One final word of caution , never ever give up a command to come to the middle east as an f/o , because once its gone its a long road back and even other employers will only treat you as an f/o if you want to leave .... Fast track seems to be finished and DECs get priority when times are tough , even f/os who have the DEC Hour requirement cannot get an upgrade .
Be Careful ..... for a young f/o its still a very good job with a nice career path and living here is great especially the weather...
Some second officers would help for crew relief and be cheaper so maybe they could rest the crews better....
Its really not that difficult to run an airline and keep people happy is it ...........
The 330-340 ccq courses are finished after april for a minimum of 6 months....(as only 2 more 340s coming this year and some doubt as to the -600s coming at all).
Looks like the goodlife will remain on the 330.......for some .
With no transition upgrades you could probably leave EK now come back in 1 year as a new f/O on the 777 and still get a command quicker than waiting on the Airbus....
Management just cant understand why pilots cant work the same as most people in the UAE , 12 hrs a day six days a week for one tenth of the pay .. Whats the problem with the pilots , they (management) cant see it ......
One final word of caution , never ever give up a command to come to the middle east as an f/o , because once its gone its a long road back and even other employers will only treat you as an f/o if you want to leave .... Fast track seems to be finished and DECs get priority when times are tough , even f/os who have the DEC Hour requirement cannot get an upgrade .
Be Careful ..... for a young f/o its still a very good job with a nice career path and living here is great especially the weather...
Some second officers would help for crew relief and be cheaper so maybe they could rest the crews better....
Its really not that difficult to run an airline and keep people happy is it ...........
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The 340 courses are stopping in late April as the sim will be down for upgrade work and not enough sim sessions available to do both recurrent and ccq. Emirates does not want to have to use the joint venture sim in the CAE Emirates building as that actualy costs them money, but then again this is their idea today.... The reason I know this, is becuse I will be working for one of the customers who would be using sims here in the UAE and I will be doing some of their training at other locations. The A340-600 will be coming to Emirates, not all of them, but the firm orders as Airbus said to Emirates cough up the penalty clauses if you do not want to take them. Emirates will take the contractual required 12 A340-600 and as my friends in Toulouse tell me (as of last week) Emirates has commited engineers and money for the 600 as recently as last week.
People might say that Emirates has a big say with Airbus which is true but if they want to keep there status they have to keep paying, otherwise they cannot keep up their great status. Emirates still has not been able to convince Airbus despite their massive orders to help them support the A340-300s they got off boeing. Boeing is still responsible to source spare parts and provide parts support for these aircraft as airbus had always claimed they would not touch them. Those of you who fly the 340-300 for EK will know this because you probably carry around adds and still not fixed as not easy to come by spare parts. (ie bleed valves, etc....)
People might say that Emirates has a big say with Airbus which is true but if they want to keep there status they have to keep paying, otherwise they cannot keep up their great status. Emirates still has not been able to convince Airbus despite their massive orders to help them support the A340-300s they got off boeing. Boeing is still responsible to source spare parts and provide parts support for these aircraft as airbus had always claimed they would not touch them. Those of you who fly the 340-300 for EK will know this because you probably carry around adds and still not fixed as not easy to come by spare parts. (ie bleed valves, etc....)
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Fact
FACT: No matter how you look at it, in the civlilized world, the absolut limit on flight time is 1000 hours in 12 calendar months! And yes, ALL time spent aloft as part of a crew is used in computing the limits!
Q-71. A flight crewmember is assigned to a three-pilot (augmented) crew on a two-crew aircraft scheduled for a 12-hour flight and cannot be at the controls more than eight hours. Does he/she log eight or 12 hours of flight time?
A-71. The pilot logs 12 hours as the entire time is duty aloft. Therefore, the total time must be counted in computing the monthly and yearly limits.
APPENDIX 2: PART 121: SUBPART R – FLIGHT TIME LIMITATIONS: FLAG OPERATIONS
§ 121.480 Applicability. This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for flag operations, except that certificate holders conducting operations with airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, may comply with the applicable requirements of §§ 135.261 through 135.273 of this chapter.
§ 121.481 Flight time limitations: One or two pilot crews.
(a) A certificate holder conducting flag operations may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane that has a crew of one or two pilots for eight hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during these eight hours.
(b) If a certificate holder conducting flag operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period, at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.
(c) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
(d) No pilot may fly more than 32 hours during any seven consecutive days, and each pilot must be relieved from all duty for at least 24 consecutive hours at least once during any seven consecutive days.
(e) No pilot may fly as a member of a crew more than 100 hours during any one calendar month.
(f) No pilot may fly as a member of a crew more than 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
§ 121.483 Flight time limitations: Two pilots and one additional flight crewmember.
(a) No certificate holder conducting flag operations may schedule a pilot to fly, in an airplane that has a crew of two pilots and at least one additional flight crewmember, for a total of more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) If a pilot has flown 20 or more hours during any 48 consecutive hours or 24 or more hours during any 72 consecutive hours, he must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the air carrier. In any case, he must be given at least 24 consecutive hours of rest during any seven consecutive days.
(c) No pilot may fly as a flight crewmember more than –
(1) 120 hours during any 30 consecutive days;
(2) 300 hours during any 90 consecutive days; or
(3) 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
§ 121.485 Flight time limitations: Three or more pilots and an additional flight crewmember.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting flag operations shall schedule its flight hours to provide adequate rest periods on the ground for each pilot who is away from his base and who is a pilot on an airplane that has a crew of three or more pilots and an additional flight crewmember. It shall also provide adequate sleeping quarters on the airplane whenever a pilot is scheduled to fly more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) The certificate holder conducting flag operations shall give each pilot, upon return to his base from any flight or series of flights, a rest period that is at least twice the total number of hours he flew since the last rest period at his base. During the rest period required by this paragraph, the air carrier may not require him to perform any duty for it. If the required rest period is more than seven days, that part of the rest period in excess of seven days may be given at any time before the pilot is again scheduled for flight duty on any route.
(c) No pilot may fly as a flight crewmember more than –
(1) 350 hours during any 90 consecutive days; or
(2) 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
Q-71. A flight crewmember is assigned to a three-pilot (augmented) crew on a two-crew aircraft scheduled for a 12-hour flight and cannot be at the controls more than eight hours. Does he/she log eight or 12 hours of flight time?
A-71. The pilot logs 12 hours as the entire time is duty aloft. Therefore, the total time must be counted in computing the monthly and yearly limits.
APPENDIX 2: PART 121: SUBPART R – FLIGHT TIME LIMITATIONS: FLAG OPERATIONS
§ 121.480 Applicability. This subpart prescribes flight time limitations and rest requirements for flag operations, except that certificate holders conducting operations with airplanes having a passenger seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer, excluding each crewmember seat, and a payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less, may comply with the applicable requirements of §§ 135.261 through 135.273 of this chapter.
§ 121.481 Flight time limitations: One or two pilot crews.
(a) A certificate holder conducting flag operations may schedule a pilot to fly in an airplane that has a crew of one or two pilots for eight hours or less during any 24 consecutive hours without a rest period during these eight hours.
(b) If a certificate holder conducting flag operations schedules a pilot to fly more than eight hours during any 24 consecutive hours, it shall give him an intervening rest period, at or before the end of eight scheduled hours of flight duty. This rest period must be at least twice the number of hours flown since the preceding rest period, but not less than eight hours. The certificate holder shall relieve that pilot of all duty with it during that rest period.
(c) Each pilot who has flown more than eight hours during 24 consecutive hours must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the certificate holder.
(d) No pilot may fly more than 32 hours during any seven consecutive days, and each pilot must be relieved from all duty for at least 24 consecutive hours at least once during any seven consecutive days.
(e) No pilot may fly as a member of a crew more than 100 hours during any one calendar month.
(f) No pilot may fly as a member of a crew more than 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
§ 121.483 Flight time limitations: Two pilots and one additional flight crewmember.
(a) No certificate holder conducting flag operations may schedule a pilot to fly, in an airplane that has a crew of two pilots and at least one additional flight crewmember, for a total of more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) If a pilot has flown 20 or more hours during any 48 consecutive hours or 24 or more hours during any 72 consecutive hours, he must be given at least 18 hours of rest before being assigned to any duty with the air carrier. In any case, he must be given at least 24 consecutive hours of rest during any seven consecutive days.
(c) No pilot may fly as a flight crewmember more than –
(1) 120 hours during any 30 consecutive days;
(2) 300 hours during any 90 consecutive days; or
(3) 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
§ 121.485 Flight time limitations: Three or more pilots and an additional flight crewmember.
(a) Each certificate holder conducting flag operations shall schedule its flight hours to provide adequate rest periods on the ground for each pilot who is away from his base and who is a pilot on an airplane that has a crew of three or more pilots and an additional flight crewmember. It shall also provide adequate sleeping quarters on the airplane whenever a pilot is scheduled to fly more than 12 hours during any 24 consecutive hours.
(b) The certificate holder conducting flag operations shall give each pilot, upon return to his base from any flight or series of flights, a rest period that is at least twice the total number of hours he flew since the last rest period at his base. During the rest period required by this paragraph, the air carrier may not require him to perform any duty for it. If the required rest period is more than seven days, that part of the rest period in excess of seven days may be given at any time before the pilot is again scheduled for flight duty on any route.
(c) No pilot may fly as a flight crewmember more than –
(1) 350 hours during any 90 consecutive days; or
(2) 1,000 hours during any 12-calendar-month period.
Loved the chat show David, although I don't see what significance FAA regs are to EK drivers???
EK has followed , until now, a much more civilised FTL scheme , CAP 371, and various UK CAA regulations.
Even with the new hours calculations I would be very surprised if anyone goes over 900 actual hours in a 12 month period. It's possible and it may happen , just cant see it myself, and before anyone does a complicated sum you would have to do virtually nothing but 4 crew flights for the year, and we don't have that many.
Although with the reduction in leave available and 8 days off a month and crew shortages , hey someone deserves a GOLD Mabrook award .............
EK has followed , until now, a much more civilised FTL scheme , CAP 371, and various UK CAA regulations.
Even with the new hours calculations I would be very surprised if anyone goes over 900 actual hours in a 12 month period. It's possible and it may happen , just cant see it myself, and before anyone does a complicated sum you would have to do virtually nothing but 4 crew flights for the year, and we don't have that many.
Although with the reduction in leave available and 8 days off a month and crew shortages , hey someone deserves a GOLD Mabrook award .............
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The FARs are just a point of reference. Since the Americans invented flying, I suppose they might have a point, that is all.
True, with the new flight time limitations scam at EK, probably nobody will exeed the limits. However, if you guys in the UK and various other regulations allow for that kid of scam,i.e., only "stick time" counted toward flight time limitations, well, I can not see the civilised side of that! By the way, do you then not log the times you get up to go to the toilet during flight?? That in principle would really make for a complicated formula...
Later
True, with the new flight time limitations scam at EK, probably nobody will exeed the limits. However, if you guys in the UK and various other regulations allow for that kid of scam,i.e., only "stick time" counted toward flight time limitations, well, I can not see the civilised side of that! By the way, do you then not log the times you get up to go to the toilet during flight?? That in principle would really make for a complicated formula...
Later
"You are lazy pilot"..." why you want time off" ..."why you leave Dubai it's paradise " ...." everything here wonderful" said an un-named management exec to the Gulf News, when asked about FTL's and a shock rise in the resignations from EK..
Did you know they got the idea for the Trueman Show from Dubai, it's a well know fact that the world ends just the other side of Jebel Ali......only kidding.
Did you know they got the idea for the Trueman Show from Dubai, it's a well know fact that the world ends just the other side of Jebel Ali......only kidding.
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AAR "When we call lazy pilots on day off to work, they all say they have had a drink"
Infadel Minion " Well your highness it would seem to be their right to partake of the evil liquor on their days off"
AAR "Issue FCI now, no pilots allowed to drink before end of day off"
Infadel Minion " Well your highness it would seem to be their right to partake of the evil liquor on their days off"
AAR "Issue FCI now, no pilots allowed to drink before end of day off"
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EK augmented flying credit is 2/3 for calculation towards the 100 hour monthly limit, but as far as the payment for the time on duty is concerned in an augmented crew compliment, it is paid for the entire duration. So what is all the fuss about? If the company is better utilizing the crew what's wrong with it? Maybe the EK drivers have become accustomed to taking a fat paycheck without actually putting in the required manhours, and so now that the company has increased productivity and one has to actually work to earn, there is all this activity - ASRs etc. I would like to ask is safety really being compromised or is it that under the garb of safety EK drivers are trying to advance their pecuniary interests? 
I also know that the hard hour limit has been reduced to 78 and that version 4 with more stringent FDTL has been adopted by EK in place of the previous version 3.
Any thoughts on these FACTS
I also know that the hard hour limit has been reduced to 78 and that version 4 with more stringent FDTL has been adopted by EK in place of the previous version 3.
Any thoughts on these FACTS
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Albertosser
Thanks for pointing out the FACTS.
You are correct in the limited FACTS you have provided. What you have neglected to add to your FACTS is that along with the "increase in productivity" by changing our conditions, we no longer get any credit for simulator, standby, sim support, office days to list a few. So after flying 140hrs we can be put on standby, sent to the sim etc and get no pay whatsoever for that. Now that's what i call a productivity increase!
It is irrelevant as to whether other companies do this, or
.
The FACT is we were all employed under different terms and had them changed unilaterally. Sure there is nothing we can do about it, but we dont have to be happy about it either.
Thanks for pointing out the FACTS.
You are correct in the limited FACTS you have provided. What you have neglected to add to your FACTS is that along with the "increase in productivity" by changing our conditions, we no longer get any credit for simulator, standby, sim support, office days to list a few. So after flying 140hrs we can be put on standby, sent to the sim etc and get no pay whatsoever for that. Now that's what i call a productivity increase!
It is irrelevant as to whether other companies do this, or
Maybe the EK drivers have become accustomed to taking a fat paycheck without actually putting in the required manhours
The FACT is we were all employed under different terms and had them changed unilaterally. Sure there is nothing we can do about it, but we dont have to be happy about it either.
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Try flying 100 unfactored long haul hours, in a bunk or not, over more time zones than you can count and see how you feel at the end of it. But EK manage to throw in some cute DOH or THR night shots just to top things up. The result - min days off, feeling like a zombie, no life.
Albatross, are you seriously defending this?
Albatross, are you seriously defending this?
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61ohoh
Yes you have the right to be unhappy. But then you'd agree that most of us are insatiable most of the time.
Not being able to do anything about the reason that makes you unhappy, well you could always move to another place, and exercising this choice is your prerogative.
When offered a contract, wasn't it drawn unilaterally by the company? Was there a negotiation and the contract amended or did you sign on the dotted line as required?
Yes you have the right to be unhappy. But then you'd agree that most of us are insatiable most of the time.
Not being able to do anything about the reason that makes you unhappy, well you could always move to another place, and exercising this choice is your prerogative.
The FACT is we were all employed under different terms and had them changed unilaterally
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ah yes, albertosser
The old "if you don't like you can leave" defence. Perennial favourite of the wind up merchants, and the way all great companies are run.
I actually have my CV in for all the fantastic jobs available, and my family can't wait to move to some other 3rd world Sh*thole just so that i can go na na na na na at the management.
Gee I wonder why didn't I think of that option earlier.
The old "if you don't like you can leave" defence. Perennial favourite of the wind up merchants, and the way all great companies are run.
I actually have my CV in for all the fantastic jobs available, and my family can't wait to move to some other 3rd world Sh*thole just so that i can go na na na na na at the management.
Gee I wonder why didn't I think of that option earlier.
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Albatross2004 -
Under any definition, a contract is an AGREEMENT between 2 parties.
Breach of contract occurs when one party changes the terms of a contract without the agreement of the other party.
You and your namesake albatosser should take the rose coloured glasses off and realise that these guys might just have a very legitimate point of view, particularly after they signed contracts in good faith.
In countries where their is more protection for workers, companies are much more reticent in going ahead with the blatant abuses that seem to occur all too frequently in the middle east.
Under any definition, a contract is an AGREEMENT between 2 parties.
Breach of contract occurs when one party changes the terms of a contract without the agreement of the other party.
You and your namesake albatosser should take the rose coloured glasses off and realise that these guys might just have a very legitimate point of view, particularly after they signed contracts in good faith.
In countries where their is more protection for workers, companies are much more reticent in going ahead with the blatant abuses that seem to occur all too frequently in the middle east.
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Dont worry chaps,
These wind up merchants will get what"s coming to them soon enough, and I guarantee it, they will be the first ones who will start squeeling like stuck pigs!
Regards
These wind up merchants will get what"s coming to them soon enough, and I guarantee it, they will be the first ones who will start squeeling like stuck pigs!
Regards
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Having reviewed my last 12 months rosters,I note I did 4 lots of reserves,all in my bottom 2 bid groups,fair enough.average 10 days off.
Since Dec 01,2004,I have done reserve EVERY month,in ALL bid groups,average 9 days off.
I have also,done 104,102,99 and 104 hrs credit since Dec 01st 2004,but not a CENT of overtime,as I have had,leave(reserve as above) and my own sim.
FACTS.
Any co-incidence?
QB
Since Dec 01,2004,I have done reserve EVERY month,in ALL bid groups,average 9 days off.
I have also,done 104,102,99 and 104 hrs credit since Dec 01st 2004,but not a CENT of overtime,as I have had,leave(reserve as above) and my own sim.
FACTS.
Any co-incidence?
QB