EK time to Command???
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: kkkkk
Is it any wonder airline managers continue to hack away at our T&C when there are people like uplink, vagrant, rainforest and others, who are happy to bend over and take it when, and where required.
The facts are pretty well summed up by Dune but maybe a few other brief points may be worth considering.
Firstly ones status, ie single or married has a huge influence on ones opinion with regard to Ts&Cs. Its fair to say that single guys could probably save a reasonable proportion of what they earn, and manage their levels of rest and fatigue quite adequately. A married FO with kids on the other hand probably wont be able to save a thing.
Ones position ie Capt or FO is also worth considering. FOs save little but do have some life style, typically flying 70-80 hours a month. They rarely get overtime, so thus are not bothered by recent changes in the credit system. Captains on the other hand have been maintaining unsustainable levels duty, and flying hours at between 90-100 hours a month, with a good deal of it back of the clock. Couple this with minimum rest turnarounds, some done under dispensations, and you now have a serious fatigue issue. With recent changes some crew have been flying 120hours+.(due to the new rule which only counts stick time towards flight time limitations, and does not include time in the bunk) Recent changes to the credit scheme will result in significant reductions in overtime payments, for more work. Thus again the opinion of a new FO probably does not reflect future realities.
As a general observation in my brief 20+ years in the industry Ive never seen it in such a mess. Ive never seen Ts & Cs, levels of fatigue, disregard for safety, morale, professional status ext ext, as bad as it is today. What airlines are getting away with is nothing short of scandalous. However the masters of such tactics, ie SQ and EK will surly find themselves in more and more deep S#@t (diddly doo) as the market continues to turn in our favor. Rest assured that there will be further attempts to cut our conditions, and professional status as the accountants go through their death throws as they desperately try to justify their floored strategies.
Throughout all this the pilots have continued to maintain the highest of operational, and personal standards while the accountants, as always continue to stoop lower than a snakes armpit. Shame on them!
The facts are pretty well summed up by Dune but maybe a few other brief points may be worth considering.
Firstly ones status, ie single or married has a huge influence on ones opinion with regard to Ts&Cs. Its fair to say that single guys could probably save a reasonable proportion of what they earn, and manage their levels of rest and fatigue quite adequately. A married FO with kids on the other hand probably wont be able to save a thing.
Ones position ie Capt or FO is also worth considering. FOs save little but do have some life style, typically flying 70-80 hours a month. They rarely get overtime, so thus are not bothered by recent changes in the credit system. Captains on the other hand have been maintaining unsustainable levels duty, and flying hours at between 90-100 hours a month, with a good deal of it back of the clock. Couple this with minimum rest turnarounds, some done under dispensations, and you now have a serious fatigue issue. With recent changes some crew have been flying 120hours+.(due to the new rule which only counts stick time towards flight time limitations, and does not include time in the bunk) Recent changes to the credit scheme will result in significant reductions in overtime payments, for more work. Thus again the opinion of a new FO probably does not reflect future realities.
As a general observation in my brief 20+ years in the industry Ive never seen it in such a mess. Ive never seen Ts & Cs, levels of fatigue, disregard for safety, morale, professional status ext ext, as bad as it is today. What airlines are getting away with is nothing short of scandalous. However the masters of such tactics, ie SQ and EK will surly find themselves in more and more deep S#@t (diddly doo) as the market continues to turn in our favor. Rest assured that there will be further attempts to cut our conditions, and professional status as the accountants go through their death throws as they desperately try to justify their floored strategies.
Throughout all this the pilots have continued to maintain the highest of operational, and personal standards while the accountants, as always continue to stoop lower than a snakes armpit. Shame on them!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,140
Likes: 0
From: Gulf playing Golf
Gooly..
So what you are saying is management is crab, accountants are snakes and FO are rich bastards with time to sleep?
You need a long layover with plenty of sleep, a handfull of prozacs and the last pages of the lastest Flight Inernational. Just kidding. I am sure we will survive and remember the grass is only greener on top of a septic tank.
Have a good one
So what you are saying is management is crab, accountants are snakes and FO are rich bastards with time to sleep?
You need a long layover with plenty of sleep, a handfull of prozacs and the last pages of the lastest Flight Inernational. Just kidding. I am sure we will survive and remember the grass is only greener on top of a septic tank.
Have a good one
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
gollychit,
The excessive monthly duty time for crew (Captains apparently only now, altho this could of course change) is only likely to be altered IF and WHEN there is an accident, or a severe incident.
Then, the FAA will have a look (especially if it happens anywhere near the USA) and will mention....category two.
It will surely have EK's undivided attention then.
You must surely pay the piper at some point, accident/incident...or not.
The excessive monthly duty time for crew (Captains apparently only now, altho this could of course change) is only likely to be altered IF and WHEN there is an accident, or a severe incident.
Then, the FAA will have a look (especially if it happens anywhere near the USA) and will mention....category two.
It will surely have EK's undivided attention then.
You must surely pay the piper at some point, accident/incident...or not.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: Idaho
411A
I hate to state the obvious, but we had our serious incident, then they changed the flight time limitations to what they are now. So I don't hold any hope that the company will change them back to what civilised countries use.
The only chance is that the next serious incident is in a country that will strongly suggest that crew fatigue was implicated in the event.
I hate to state the obvious, but we had our serious incident, then they changed the flight time limitations to what they are now. So I don't hold any hope that the company will change them back to what civilised countries use.
The only chance is that the next serious incident is in a country that will strongly suggest that crew fatigue was implicated in the event.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: Behind the mirror
411 A,
The FAA had already a close look at EK in the passed and had banned them. Only recently did the UAE DGCA get a new approval.
I strongly suggest that EK crewmember write to Capt Kim Miller from the FAA AFS 50 Department based in Washington.
Its time the UAE starts to respect and treat their expatriates as human beings.
In my opinion the situation has degraded that much that crews are afraid of taking any decision that may expose the Airlines safety record.
Regards
The FAA had already a close look at EK in the passed and had banned them. Only recently did the UAE DGCA get a new approval.
I strongly suggest that EK crewmember write to Capt Kim Miller from the FAA AFS 50 Department based in Washington.
Its time the UAE starts to respect and treat their expatriates as human beings.
In my opinion the situation has degraded that much that crews are afraid of taking any decision that may expose the Airlines safety record.
Regards
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Far Away
Evening Gents,
Interesting,debate,things are moving along,2 more FOs resign,this week,which I find disheartening,but not surprising.The new boss,however,is a gent,time will tell if can deliver.Im as uncertain as the rest of you.
First off,Vagrant,me thinks you seek a car park slot,Rainforest,you too,possibly an office,and Palm,Im afraid,your sort,make me shake my head.I also would like to see an improvement in spelling please chaps.Crapflyer,your comments well intended,Im sure,but many,FOs who gave up good slots,now face a very uncertain,career path.No axe to grind with you,just the way it was done.
Dune,you speak wise words,(as does Im afraid on this occasion 411),the bottom line is,EK is and has changed,for the worse,in terms of Ts&Cs,,(as 411,has long predicted)I note,that GF is often quoted,as SQ,on these pages.GF has some great pilots,and has seen hard times,but is addressing them.SQ remains,well,SQ.
The fact remains,both were once excellent airlines,with first class,Ts&Cs for pilots.
However,both have had fatal hull losses,in recent years,and through rather major human errors,both remain in business,to this day.What short term memories,the pax have,and EK management,must be well aware of this.A hull loss,is tragic,but,handle it well,and the pax soon return,with travel/cost induced amnesia.
EK has had a very,very close shave,and to continue in the vein,that appears to be evident,with recent events,is at best,surprising.I truly believe,not all the really important stuff,has ever,until very recently reached the ears of the big players.Its time,to pay attention,IMHO.
Good luck to all colleagues seeking pastures new.
History,gents,needs looking at and researching,for those FOs coming,expect a long wait to LHS.
Off to the pub.QB
Interesting,debate,things are moving along,2 more FOs resign,this week,which I find disheartening,but not surprising.The new boss,however,is a gent,time will tell if can deliver.Im as uncertain as the rest of you.
First off,Vagrant,me thinks you seek a car park slot,Rainforest,you too,possibly an office,and Palm,Im afraid,your sort,make me shake my head.I also would like to see an improvement in spelling please chaps.Crapflyer,your comments well intended,Im sure,but many,FOs who gave up good slots,now face a very uncertain,career path.No axe to grind with you,just the way it was done.
Dune,you speak wise words,(as does Im afraid on this occasion 411),the bottom line is,EK is and has changed,for the worse,in terms of Ts&Cs,,(as 411,has long predicted)I note,that GF is often quoted,as SQ,on these pages.GF has some great pilots,and has seen hard times,but is addressing them.SQ remains,well,SQ.
The fact remains,both were once excellent airlines,with first class,Ts&Cs for pilots.
However,both have had fatal hull losses,in recent years,and through rather major human errors,both remain in business,to this day.What short term memories,the pax have,and EK management,must be well aware of this.A hull loss,is tragic,but,handle it well,and the pax soon return,with travel/cost induced amnesia.
EK has had a very,very close shave,and to continue in the vein,that appears to be evident,with recent events,is at best,surprising.I truly believe,not all the really important stuff,has ever,until very recently reached the ears of the big players.Its time,to pay attention,IMHO.
Good luck to all colleagues seeking pastures new.
History,gents,needs looking at and researching,for those FOs coming,expect a long wait to LHS.
Off to the pub.QB
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 125
Likes: 6
From: Pub
Atb exEk FO,
I've been watching this space (as per your posting of a couple of weeks back) to see what the outcome has been to your response/refusal of the new t&c's. If successful, this would surely open the floodgates. Was the UK lawyer helpful......
I've been watching this space (as per your posting of a couple of weeks back) to see what the outcome has been to your response/refusal of the new t&c's. If successful, this would surely open the floodgates. Was the UK lawyer helpful......
