EEG off the JAR class one medical in UK
 

The following is an excript from the CAA website:


The electroencephalogram (EEG) and the initial JAR Class 1 examination 06 October 2004

The JAR-FCL 3 requires an EEG (brain scan) examination as part of the initial examination for a Class 1 certificate for professional flying. This is a controversial test in the context of screening for future epileptic seizures, which is not required in the ICAO Annex 1 standards and recommended practices, and which is not done by many aviation authorities throughout the world. The UK CAA has argued in the JAA medical committees that the investigation is of minimal benefit to flight safety, but no consensus has been reached. The UK CAA therefore has informed Central JAA that it will not be performing this examination in the initial JAR Class 1 examination from 4 October 2004. It will inform pilots undergoing a JAR Class 1 examination that should they wish to fly an aircraft professionally that is registered in another state, that state is entitled to require them to have an EEG.

wow. big step for the CAA. Hats off to them tho. Its a stupid test for what the JAA are using it for.

Nice to see the CAA on our side :)

Goodo.

No point doing tests that do not contribute to flightsafety.

FD

That's good news. I remember discussing this issue with the doc at my initial Class 1, back in 2000 or thereabouts. He said then that the EEG was a waste of time and that the CAA were hoping to stop doing it. It was also very expensive, so now...COSTS OF INITIAL CLASS 1 MEDICALS SHOULD GO DOWN!!!!

We criticise them a lot on here, but let's give credit where it's due - WELL DONE, CAA. :ok:

WOHOO! Fantastic, one less thing to worry about when I get down to Gatwick.

Typically, how much does an EEG add to the overall cost of a class 1 medical?

The EEG adds £87.00 to the price of the medical.

It was this test that i had problems with. The CAA now want to see the opinion of an independent neurologist who carried out a similar EEG with me, in order to reassess my case.

So fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!

i had the same problem with the EEG as gareth08 and the CAA has yet to get back to me.

However the CAA shouldnt be able to do this as there is one rule for the new candidates of class one medicals and another for the people that have failed due to the EEG. Im sure court action would soon change there mind

Sharpey,

I have had to stand on the head of the CAA recently writing letters every couple of weeks. Basically the AME i talked to was very helpful. If you can get a consultant nerologist to examine you independently, they will reasses your case, depending on the outcome of the report from your neurologist, which needs to be favourable. You will need to contact the CAA first though.

There is a lot of evidence in current research papers out there to show that the EEG is not a terribly useful test in the context it was being used, which was the argument the CAA have used to drop it. They themselves from what i can deduce are very happy to see the back of it. They are published in a few different journals, get your neurologist to look into it. One very interesting paper was published by clark and riley (2001) entitled 'screening EEG in aircrew selection:clinical aerospace neurology perspective' published in aviation space and environmental medicine, vol 72 no 11 (2001). It makes some interesting reading and i would advise you send the reference onto a neurologist should you decide to contact one, so he/she can have a read at it.

Although, i do agree with you on the legal aspects. I recently had a chat with a friend of mine who is training as a barrister, who is absolutely gobsmacked. He reckons that now they've dropped the EEG, they have left themselves open for hanging!!, or as he put it - a judicial review. He listed after looking through a few legal books of his at least 4 different grounds the aviation authorities could be sued on!

However only time will tell in the meantime,

Best wishes!!

Please help
 

PLease can someone offer a 'newbie' some advise.
Ive always wanted to become a proffesional commercial airline pilot but until recently have not been in a position to pay the fees privately. I am considering going to cabair in cranfield to complete the 56 week modular course.

My main concerns are:

The class 1 medical, ive read the brief but would like to hear from someone whos actually done it.

Im a 20 a day smoker at the moment but if i get accepted for flight school would quit immediately. (How would this impact my medical)??

What are my prospects of a first officer position after completing my flight training.

I pretty much dont care whether its long haul / short haul etc.


Look forward to your responses, feedback

DS,

1. Do a search with 'Class one' medical as keyword.
2. Stop smoking, if you are convinced that you can stop like that why continue to waste health and money on a useless habit.
3. Further advice on which way to go and job opportunities can be found and discussed on the Wannabees forum.

Best of luck

FD

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

I had my inital Class 1 examination 5 days bafore the 4th of october!

No mention that the EEG was being scrapped......not only was the Bloody test uncomfortable and time consuming......now i find it was a COMPLETE waste of my time and MONEY........

The £87 would have come in handy to pay for the extra investigations I have required due to an abnormal ECG.

Hi everyone, anybody know if the IAA is going to scrape the EEG? Heard that it takes nearly one and a half hours:ooh: Oh the taught of it, oh so boring!!!

According to the CAA website, a class 1 medical will now only cost £337. I booked mine a few weeks ago and it cost me £422:{

It was updated on the 4th of October which I'm almost sure was before the date I booked it. [I'm currently on holiday so I'll have to check when I get back]

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...entre_Fees.pdf

I wonder if the CAA will give me a refund as I'm not going to actually do the test? I'll have to give them a call when I get back.

If you have paid the full price for your medical but have not yet had it, then there should be no problem in the CAA refunding the £87 for the EEG.

Just mention it to the reception when you go for the medical, and i'm sure they'll refund without any problem.

I had my initial done last monday so no EEG performed.
Just called CAA and they had automatically refunded the difference on the tuesday which was nice of them!

Glad to hear to hear it, thanks!
0-8

gareth08,

Can you give me a link to the paper of Clark and Riley 'screening EEG in aircrew selection: clinical aerospace neurology perspective'? I tried viewing it on the official aviation space and environmental medicine website but the actual text isn't there.

Being in the same predicament as you (denied medical thanks to failed EEG), I'm seriously considering emigrating to the U.S.
Does anyone know how the situation with the FAA is if I'm telling them I had my JAA medical denied because of the EEG? Would they just ignore that or come up with lots of extra checks?

Best Wishes

Hi 7E7

I was in the same position as you a while back, having failed the EEG. Have you tried harrassing the CAA as i did and they had no grounds to stop me from getting the class one as they dont recognise the test anymore, therefore they issued me it.

Sharpey

The big problem is that I'm from another JAA country where the EEG remains a requirement. Harrassing the local CAA might do more harm than good, and I probably can't get a "favorable opinion" from any neurologist here. Of course they would all try to justify EEGs in aircrew selection to improve their income and besides they are all extremely cautious about writing a good report for somebody who has a seizure risk potentially increased by 0.0000000000001%!

Can anybody tell me how I need to proceed if I'm moving my whole certification stuff to the UK CAA (if at all possible at this "denied" stage)? What if I definitely can't get a "good" report on my EEG, would the UKCAA just ignore that and issue me with a UK Class 1, given the fact I have no neurologic problems at all (like almost everybody else in the same plight!!)? All other reports/findings were normal at the medical.

I'm still considering going to the U.S. but need to find out first how they would handle the matter.

Thanks for any help with this!

I am also pleased the EEG is now removed from the array of tests we must endure. If you get an abnormal trace in the regular EEG you can easily screen out candidates. However, if you did the more prolonged and expensive, 24 hour EEG on everybody I would guess you would find a surprisingly large proportion of people that had some abnormality or other in the trace but without any clinical neurological symptom to associate it with (a proportion of which would have a sub-clinical condition). To be reasonable and fair, more must be known about the significance of short durations of abnormal EEG in people who are to all observers, free of any abnormality. To deny someone their dream job based on a test result without further analysis of the possible causes is wrong.
Anyway, that's a round about way of saying HURRAH! and Well done the CAA.

7E7 flyer,

Sorry it's taken a while to reply ;haven't been checking site for a while.

Basically it's only the UK division of the JAA that has dropped the EEG. However that's not to say that if you get a hold of a sympathetic Neurologist that they can't write you a favourable report. The first neurologist i went to didn't want to know about it, he said if there's a problem then there's a problem and the JAA wont change their minds.

The second guy i went to was extremely helpful, he carried out the EEG and the abnormality was still there. Although what i did was sent him the references to the research (clark and riley (2001) entitled 'screening EEG in aircrew selection:clinical aerospace neurology perspective' published in aviation space and environmental medicine, vol 72 no 11 (2001) - and he looked this up and sent me his views.

He was not in favour of the EEG being used in the manner the aviation authorities were using it. According to the research and my EEG he stated the increase in risk he thought i was. He then wrote a report for me which i forwarded to the CAA in Gatwick. They then took this excess risk and divided in into the 40 years i would be employed before retirement and worked out that the excess risk per year was so tiny that the risk was not considered a threat to flight safety and i got through my class one.

So my guess is if you can land a report on someone's desk (that is favourable) in the issuing country you are from; they will have to look into it further - legally. Just keep trying different neurologists. It might cost a bit to have private sessions with these guys, but it's worth it if it works out - believe me! If you do a search under EEG or under 'gareth08' one of my posts has the contact address of a Dr. Esmonde that i used in Belfast, Northern Ireland, although that may be a bit of a long way to travel, but have a look around, your GP would be the best person to put you in contact with a couple of different names.

Hope this is of some use,

Good luck,

Gareth.

Thanks for your reply Gareth.

Sent you a PM.

Solitary seizure?
 

Hi Folks,

I know this thread has gone quiet for a couple of months, however I decided to search the boards for EEG/seizure, and found this thread.

In November of last year, I sufferred a solitary seizure, which was more or less self-inflicted, the causes being very clear. Having had the standard tests (Bloods, ECG, EEG, MRI) as well as Consultation with a Neurologist, the blood tests were fine, the ECG was fine, the MRI was fine, but the EEG was positive.

To my understanding, as the Neurologist confirmed - a positive EEG alone, without a second seizure, cannot be used to diagnose epilepsy - and as such, they are not diagnosing me with it, nor are they putting me on any medication. On the 26th, I am off to see a specialist, to hopefully get some more information on the likely recurrence of the seizures, to give me some more information to send off to the CAA.

Does anyone have any knowledge of the Aviation Medical Unit at Gatwick, and their approach to Solitary Seizure? I know for sure the FAA allow solitary seizure... indeed, anyone suffering from epilepsy who is taking medication to control it, can pass a Class 1 in America.

I'd appreciate any input you can provide....

Best Wishes..

EEG no longer required at initial JAA Class 1
 

Just found the following on the UK CAA website:


http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...90&pageid=4764

“
EEGs at initial Class 1 – no longer required and ‘long-term exemption’ issued

The UK ceased requiring electroencephalograms (EEGs, the test of electrical brain activity) for initial Class 1 applicants in October last year. The LSST(M) has now agreed with the UK’s position and the LST has accepted the decision as a ‘long-term exemption’. This means that the LST expect that the JAR will be formally changed in the future, although a consultation process, known as discussion of a ‘Notice of Proposed Amendment’ is still required. It is, however, very unlikely that a different decision will be reached after consultation.
“

Good news indeed, but how will this affect all those folks who were denied JAA certification solely on the grounds of abnormal EEGs?

Any idea when finalized rules on this are to be expected?

Hi Tango

I’m sorry to hear about your predicament; I know exactly what you’re going through at the moment. Although I never suffered a seizure I’m still trying to get my medical.

The current FAA policy on medical certification following a single seizure requires a 4 year period of being seizure free and off medication for at least the last 2 years prior to consideration. For a multiple seizure event then the observation period prior to medical certification is currently 10 years seizure free with the last 3 years being off medication.

It’s true a diagnosis of epilepsy can’t be made unless you had more than one seizure. Still, special issuance is still required with the FAA, and they don’t really like abnormal EEGs. I don’t know what’s exactly involved with the FAA if the reason for your seizure is very clear. You might try www.aviationmedicine.com and ask them.

As for the folks at Gatwick I can’t give you a qualified answer. Below I’ve enclosed Appendix 11 of the JARs (as found on http://www.jaa.nl/jars_npas/jars/435247.pdf), paragraphs 2 and 5 would probably require you to wait at least 10 years. As these are the JARs they still require a normal EEG, but this apparently will be kicked out, see my thread “EEG no longer required at initial JAA Class 1.” Maybe at Gatwick they wouldn’t want you to have a perfect EEG…


Good luck & keep trying!

7E7Flyer


Appendix 11 to Subparts B and C
Neurological requirements
(See JAR–FCL 3.210 and 3.330)

1 Any stationary or progressive disease of the nervous system which has caused or is likely to cause a significant disability is disqualifying. However, the AMS may consider minor functional losses, associated withstationary disease, acceptable after full evaluation.

2 A diagnosis of epilepsy is disqualifying, unless there is unequivocal evidence of a syndrome of benign
childhood epilepsy associated with a very low risk of recurrence, and the applicant has been free of recurrence and off treatment for more than 10 years. One or more convulsive episodes after the age of 5 is disqualifying. However, an acute symptomatic seizure which is considered by a consultant neurologist acceptable to the AMS to have a very low risk of recurrence may be accepted by the AMS.

3 Epileptiform paroxysmal EEG abnormalities and focal slow waves normally are disqualifying. Further
evaluation shall be carried out by the AMS.

4 A history of one or more episodes of disturbance of consciousness of uncertain cause is disqualifying. A
single episode of such disturbance of consciousness may be accepted by the AMS when satisfactorily explained but a recurrence is normally disqualifying.

5 An applicant having had a single afebrile epileptiform seizure which has not recurred after at least 10
years while off treatment, and where there is no evidence of continuing predisposition to epilepsy, may be
granted a licence if the risk of a further seizure is considered in the limits acceptable to the AMS. For Class 1
certification an “OML” limitation shall be applied.

6 Any head injury which has been severe enough to cause loss of consciousness or is associated with
penetrating brain injury must be assessed by the AMS and be seen by a consultant neurologist acceptable to the AMS. There must be a full recovery and a low risk (in the limits acceptable to the AMS) of epilepsy before recertification

7 Consideration of applicants with a history of spinal or peripheral nerve injury shall be undertaken in
conjunction with the musculo-skeletal requirements, Appendices and Manual Chapter.

8 The assessment of malignant conditions in this system is also explained in the Oncology Chapter of the
Manual which provides information regarding certification and should be consulted together with the Chapter
specific to this system. All intracerebral malignant tumours are disqualifying.

[Amdt. 2, 01.06.02]

Thanks 7E7....

Sorry for the late reply... I have just got in from a couple of days in London, as I had a medical appointment, on this note, with a neurologist.

He seems quite happy that it is a solitary event, as does my local neurologist. What he said was quite promising.. He suggested that 1/3 of people who have solitary seizures, have a recurrence within one month.... A further third, within one year.... so by going 6 months seizure-free, I have already brought down my own recurrence risk.

I also decided to call up the CAA, who said that they won't rule it out... and they will look at it case by case. With this in mind, once the specialist has looked at the EEG trace, I'll send them his report.

One thing I did suggest to my neurologist, is that the +ve EEG and the seizure were actually independent to an extent, as people can have solitary seizures and have normal EEG's. The thing is, this one was so self-inflicted, though me not looking after myself, I can't help but wonder whether this is possible.

Ahh well, I'll sit here and bite my finger nails (whilst my fingers are crossed!) in anticipation!

Thanks once again.

Hi tango_golf, i have been reading your posts with some interest, as I have found myself in a simular situation. a single solitary seizure, albeit as a result of a prior neurologic insult, which has now been rectified.
I have been in contact with various consultants in Europe, and am now looking to research information in the USA.
Single seizures seem to be a very grey area at the moment, and statistics (which is what its all about) seem to vary widely.
The problem is that there are many neurologists, and many aviation doctors, however there are very few, and very hard to find aviation neurologists.
I wish you all the very best in your quest, and would like to hear how you get on.
Oh and if anyone else out there has any ideas, now would be a great time to hear them!