Eyesight regulations CONDEMMED!
 

Hi Everyone,

Now for some expert advice. Last weekend I attended the seminar at Cabair with an interest to gaining my CPL. I have had training flights for my PPL license and am hoping to gain that early next year as soon as funds allow. After the seminar one of the tutors made me aware of the eyesight regs - and on Monday my fears where confirmed by my optician!

The truth is, like everyone on this page, I desperatley want to fly for a living!

My prob is that my eyesight is too bad for the CAA and JAA regulations. I have an astigmatism and appaarently that just isnt allowed under any circumstances. Before I pay £400 for a Class one med, i'd love any info you guys/gals could give me on other ways - other countries, with more leaniant regs on eyesight. Or indeed any oother routes to becomming a reward making pilot without the same strict regs.

I am somewhat niave as i've only recently adopted the urge to actually climb this mountain and have my heart set on it!

I could bore anyone with my prescription if need be! But any ionfo would be great.

Regards
Dan

Who told you that astigmatism wasn't allowed? I have astigmatism and I hold a JAA Class 1 medical. I am also cross eyed and mildly short sighted. I have to wear specs to fly. The main thing is can your astigmatism be corrected with spectacles?

If you are really concerned, speak to the CAA medical branch directly. They're the ones that say yay or nay, no one else. I believe if you think you may miss out, you can do the eye test first and they won't charge you the full fee for the medical.

You could print out the JAA requirements and see if they match up, or ask the optician to test specifically for the items.

Australia's eye standards are much more reasonable. Just ask any one who's colour blind. :D

Second thoughts, just speak to the CAA's medical branch. Tell them your script and they should be able to advise you.

I was told by my optician (non CAA registered!) Young guy, but he made it clear after I showed him the JAA Specifications.

I'm lead by anyone with more knowledge than me.

Thanks for your help - i'll dig out the CAA's medical number, I take it the Gatwick med centre is the correct place.

Thanks.

Do exactly as Redsnail suggest's,get in contact witht he CAA medical branch directly.Send them in you opticians report.

My own personal story is one of eyesight problems too.My figures from memory was LEFT -3.75 RIGHT -5.25 dioptres.In effect after speaking to a AME he said it was my right eye failing the initial class 1 limits.However upon reading through the CAA eyeight requirements they do state
"if your eyesight is within the renewal/revalidation standards get in touch!"

Therefore I duely got in contact and after some lengthy correspondence back and forth between me and the CAA they have given me a medical deviation for the distance vision.And as such next week I have my Initial Class 1 medical and assumming everything else with me is fine then I'd be issued with a Class1 with deviation.This would entitle me to have the medical,do my training and upon completion of my training the deviation would be lifted.I myself have an astigmatism so maybe you should look into this.If its too bad I know my eyesight was perfectly well and good for the FAA licence and was my back-up plan.:ok:



Hope all goes well

Regards

Hi VS773ER,

Astigmatism is allowed as long as it does not exceed 2.00 dioptres.
The following link gives the visual standards required for a JAR Class 1 initial examination:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf

Cheers
HaM

I've just got the telephone with aviation house,

The lady did state there is a 'deviation' rule applying for people with astigmatism's and other problems.

I have to get my optician and file a report which is my last ditch effort (pardon the pun!).

Thanks for all your help - if anyone can shed any light on the FAA's rules, that'll help me plan route 'B'!

Regards
Dan

First bit of advice with regards to the opticians report that annoyed me.Is that initially they asked me for 1 report.So duely sent it inn then recieved a phone call 3 weeks later saying they needed 3 opticians reports.So if you do send them reports send them 3 years reports straight away and save yourself some time and agony for the reply!!;)

As for the FAA ceck out their website and once again print of their requirements and get them checked out with regards to your eyesight prescription.


Regards

THANKS
 

EGAC_Ramper

Thanks loads. Managed to gain all the reports I needed from the last 4 years. My Astigmantism is -5.50 in my left so am pushing my luck but its worth the last bit of effort1

Thanks again.
Dan

Good Luck!! Was in your shoes so know what it is like.

Keep me posted on how things go for you!!:ok:

While it may be that you have been the subject of an over-enthusiastic interpretation of the rules, your last post suggests that you are actually well outside the allowable limits for astigmatism.

I don't want to rub salt in the wound, but surely you do understand that eyesight is one of the most important physical attributes of a pilot? The limits these days are very generous, thanks to the technology available in corrective spectacles - even laser surgery is allowable with certain constraints - but limits there must be. Being a pilot is not a 'right', it is something you must qualify for so that your employers, passengers and YOU can be sure you are up to the job when the chips are down. Of necessity, some of the required qualifications are beyond your capability to influence.

Scroggs

The FAA regs are straight forward.

You need 20/20 vision in each eye.

Glasses and contact lenses are allowed, with one exception Varifocal contact lenses or wearing one contact lens with an asymetric correction for reading are prohibited.

They dont care how thick your lenses are or how much astigmatism you have.

If you get an FAA First Class medical then you can convert it to a CAA medical if you meet the renewal standards for a CAA medical.



Incidentally there is no such thing as an initial FAA medical, each medical exam is to the same standards.

Waivers are easy to come by for most static defects, ie Monocularity, Colour vision etc.

Understood.

I far from feel that i'm am owed the opportunity. And consider safety first, for me, passengers and employers.

As the statistics say its safer to be aboad a plane that in a car... surely that must mean the eyesight regulations for a driving license should be more regulated than that of a commercial airline pilot?

When the 'chips' are down a pilot with corrected/aided vision is no more inadequate than a pilot with grade A vision. (As long as he/she has a spare pair of specs!)

Fatigue in the eyes of a able visioned person is just as dangerous and more common - medically proven.

The trouble is that the fatigued eyes of the non-perfectly visioned people are worse than the fatigued eyes of an able-visioned person.

Unfortunately your astigmatism is substantially above the Class 2 limit (3 dioptres) too
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf

Disappointments do happen, and I do sympathise with you, but I have to say that criticising the medical standards without presenting solid arguments won't get you anywhere. Put your energy into something constructive like gaining an NPPL which I believe you would be able to if you are medically fit enough to drive a car. (But don't quote me on this, I'm not in the UK and don't know much about it.)

Hmmmmm

You'll find no criticising going on here. Thank you for taking time out of your no doubt, busy schedule to reply to the post, you and 'sproggs' will find that advice was my only request.

I'm sure some of you might find in necessary to quosh any attemp to allow people into the industry that don't meet the 'calibre' of old - but the reality is I too wouldn't consider this line of work if I knew I was a risk to ANYONE. Bad eyesight doesn't mean I have bad JUDGEMENT.

Thanks for the info. But please, no one is on a pedastal here... PPL... CPL... Whatever.

Nobody said that you had a poor judgement. No-one said you would be unsafe to fly. What some have said is that the regulations are regulations, and we have to fall within the given medical standards whether we like it or not, if we want to fly.

Scroggs and I were just saying that your astigmatism is unfortunately too far above the limit, from what you said in an earlier post. I do not see why you should attempt to offend him by calling him "sproggs", which I assume was deliberate. If not, I withdraw this criticism and apologise.

You wrote "As the statistics say its safer to be aboad a plane that in a car... surely that must mean the eyesight regulations for a driving license should be more regulated than that of a commercial airline pilot?". I interpreted this and "Fatigue in the eyes of a able visioned person is just as dangerous and more common - medically proven." as a criticism of, or a complaint regarding, the imposition of eyesight standards upon pilots.

I am certainly not trying to quosh any attempt to allow people into the industry that don't meet the 'calibre' of old (in fact I am quite against some of the medical standards imposed upon pilots). I do not believe Scroggs was, either. There is no elitist mentality going on here, if that is what you are implying.

My post was merely an attempt to pass on the information regarding the Class 2 medical standards (private level), possibility of NPPL and also to say that your comments regarding the eyesight regulations are not really valid and that the energy would be better spent pursuing something more realistically achievable, such as an NPPL.

I know that it is disappointing to find that there is a major obstacle when you have set your heart on something, but it is better to find out earlier on than when you have gone further down the road.

By all means send whatever documents you have into CAA and see what they say. Nobody is telling you not to. But basically the gist is don't get your hopes up for obtaining Class 1 if your astigmatism is so far above the limit, and if you just want to fly an airliner and do not want to fly for pleasure, you would probably like to put your flying training on hold until you hear back from them. If you love flying for the sake of flying, then there is NPPL as well as microlight flying, gliding etc that you can do without having meet the Class 2 standards, and you would probably like to look into them.

FYI the renewal limit for astigmatism for Class 1 is 3 dioptres.
For Class 2, it says the astigmatism may go beyond 3 dioptres (CAA's site only says MAY so that is quite vague as to how far they permit). If you get an FAA PPL for instance, they will use the report from your last foreign medical and assess it and will issue you a Class 2 if it is satisfactory. Not sure if they will apply the initial or renewal standards for that. Check with CAA about this. But remember Class 2 is only for flying as a PPL and so it might not meet your requirement.

Sometimes the truth is hard to accept...

Poorly sighted person(s)
 

In much the same way that if I were having a triple heart bypass operation I should rather like to be operated on by a surgeon with first class eyesight and preferably many years of surgical experience when I go as a passenger in a civil aircraft I should like to think that the pilot can see well and is well trained!
Sadly we live in a rather strange world where people just cannot seem to accept that there really are limiations and there have to be standards WITHOUT exception! Sorry my friend if you cannot see - try another profession. I am told Law is a good alternative.

Ok, firstly, speak to the CAA, find out exactly what they say. If you must, go and see them before writing off the JAR ATPL (at this point in time).
It is worth spending the money.

Let's assume they say the worst, not good enough for initial Class 1 ATPL. Ask if it's good enough for a renewal or would they consider reviewing your case IF you had eg 1,000 hours flying experience with no problems. If they say yes, now you can formulate a plan.

If they agree to consider you with X amount of hours, tootle off to the States and work over there for a year or so. It'll be good for you any way and you'll get some good flying experience.

Unfortunately, if the CAA say no to all of the above, see if you can fly for fun and go find a well paid job and laugh at us having to work Xmas day and in really ugly weather. :)

Good luck.

MercenaryAli, no need to be that harsh, he may be perfectly well be able to see, just that his sight without correction is said to be outside the CAA's limit, and they are fairly strict with this stuff.

I am sort of in the same boat as you I believe, although not entirely sure who is in the better position.

My last eye test (in April) showed that my prescription is around -5.25 and also -1.75 astigmatism. The CAA add these two figures together so I am technically over the -5 limitation for Class 1 initial (since I am -7 total). However, I have held a PPL since I was 18 (4 years ago) and got a Class 2 at the time. I've always wanted to be a commercial pilot, but figured that I couldn't be one (back when I was 18 as the limit in those days was -3 dioptres TOTAL) and so have now taken a different career path (still in the airline industry though). I'm now sticking to the management side of the industry and flying for fun...at Cranfield incidently - may have even saw you in the Library if you were up for the CABAIR briiefing) Just for curiosity, I recently got in contact with the CAA and this is what they said:

"In reply to your e mail requesting information on achieving JAA class 1 medical certification. You may be able to achieve a JAA class 1 with a deviation if your eye sight is within the renewal standards. However before we can confirm this you need to submit an up to date spectacle prescription and one from 3 years ago. The deviation route for pilots who hold a PPL(A) licence involves attending Aviation House for a JAA class 1 eye first initial examination. If the applicant is successful then they will receive a JAA class 1 medical certificate with a deviation. This permits the pilot to undertake professional flying training and on successful completion of the course the deviation will be lifted."

So this is what you have to do. I think I will give it a miss now.

The reason why....if you were at the CABAIR do last week, I take it you are not that old (early-mid 20s perhaps too??). You have to remember that in being a commercial pilot, your health and fitness is constantly monitored and the renewal limit for Class 1 is -8 dioptres for myopia (-3 for astigmatism). Suppose you were to go over this (and indeed your eyesight probably will get worse) --- I'm just saying you need to consider this, you may find that you get through this time only to find that a few years later on they take it away from you and then you'll be in a worse state.

My advice --- check it out with the CAA, if they can give you a Class 1, great, but also look at it in the long-run.

CP

---Modified to make sense----

Crazy, re: your comment "You have to remember that in being a commercial pilot, your health and fitness is constantly monitored and the renewal limit for Class 1 is -8 dioptres", -8 is for myopia, not for astigmatism. The Class 1 renewal limit for astigmatism is 3 dioptres. I'm just mentioning this to avoid confusion...

Yeah yeah yeah, sorry, just re-read mine and it doesn't quite make it clear enough!

As Bird Strike said, limit for astigmatism is -3, limit for short-sightedness is -8...

Bird Strike ....just confirm for me, the -8 is when they add the astigmatism onto the myopia, or is that without, ie with my total of -7, I'm still within, or is it my -5.25 which counts under the -8 category?

All clear as crystal ---- hmmm!

Crazy, the documents aren't crystal clear to me, but my interpretation would be that it is myopia + astigmatism, i.e. the total correction of -8 is the maximum, i.e. -7 is still within but would have been better with -5.25, if you see what I mean.

But don't rely on my interpretation, call CAA for clarification - getting regs clarified is relatively straight-forward.

And by the way, if you do call the medical department, try and persuade the receptionist/nurses to let you speak to the doctor. I have spoken to one of them and he was incredibly helpful, and a lot of people who have spoken to the CAA doctors found the same.

eyesight
 

What is the position of the CAA in respect of eye surgery? I believe that certain types of astygmatism can be corrected or improved by surgery, and laser treatment is available for myopia.

Their stance on eye surgery is stated on the website in the Class I .pdf document. See here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf

V1R

Eyesight.
 

If you can't see properly or you cannot pass the necessary stringent requirements laid down by the CAA/JAA/FAA please - just accept it - move on and become a good lawyer! Trust me - you will probably thank me for it in 20 years!!!

If you can\'t see properly or you cannot pass the necessary stringent requirements laid down by the CAA/JAA/FAA please - just accept it - move on and become a good lawyer! Trust me - you will probably thank me for it in 20 years!!!:ok:

MA,

OK Al, we're now seeing all double or is the repetitiveness of the message the result of your obsessive compulsive disorder?

:D

The guy has a point though, sometimes in life we have to accept that we'd do better setting our goals at something which is achievable. And a very fulfilling life can be had by doing things other than trying to make a living as a professional pilot.

However it is pretty annoying if you can not achieve your goals due to a problem which is not your making nor would be a problem if you were trying to achieve those goals under the rules of a different but well accepted regulatory agency.

So if these chaps want to pursuit their dreams and deploy some tenacity in the process all the better, the road to the top (or in this case the pointy bit up front) is not a walk in the park and overcoming hindrances and limitations will stand them in good stead for the duration of their training and professional lives.

FD

Oooops!
 

Yes ! Sorry about that, certainly not obessed nor obsessive I have "finger trouble" with my mouse! The mouse is too small for my finger....or is it that my finger is too large for my mouse? Anyways apologies to those with double vision who think they see the same post twice - you do!! :O

Thanks for the response crazypilot, and bridstrike.

It is rereshing to see the scenario from ALL angles. And for the record it is hard to accept being disabled when in normal day to day life i haven't considered it for 25 years!

I am going to try the last effort - the JAA will soon reject my eyesight if, indeed, it is unsafe so its really out of my hands.

Thanks for all the responses - sorry for the srcastic responses scroggs - birdstrike ;-)

Dan

p.s MercenaryAli I've sat behind a desk for only 8 years and am going quietly crazy - lawyer just isn't an option! (Would sooner be a steward for ryanair!)

Don't see yourself as disabled!! You aren't, and you are a fully functional human being, and even if you were disabled, it still doesn't devalue you in any way.

I tell you, flying for pleasure can be a wonderful thing. So even if you are unable to obtain a Class 1 or 2, fly for what it is - for the pleasure of flying, to be up in the air. There are still some avenues open for you if you want to do that - even FAA licence - there are some N-reg aircraft in the UK I believe.

Good luck!

P.S. I'd rather be a lawyer than a steward for Ryanair though, I don't want a sex change! :E

You could always be a Flying Lawyer :E :}

VS773ER

Let us know how it goes with the CAA! Would be interested to know...

Flying Lawyer? That's a TV show right there :)

V1R

Lawyer main job and PPL to fly during the weekend :}:ok: :} Not bad me thinks :ok:

I am another one who would be most interested in what the CAA have to say.

Eager to get cracking on an approved ATPL type course, I took a print out of the class 1 eyesight standards from the CAA to my local optician for their opinion.

It was all going marvelously until she checked out my left eye -
With my left eye I could read all but the last letter on the 6/9 line, good enough for the class 2 medical (possibly good enough for class 1 revalidation?), but not good enough for the initial class 1.

My initial reaction was b****ks!!

However if there are more ways to skin this proverbial cat, I would love to know.