What would actually stop renewal of CAA EASA Class 1?
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What would actually stop renewal of CAA EASA Class 1?
Hi guys and gals,
Was just thinking and wonder..... seems so many things now can allow the holder to continue to fly with an OML for multi-pilot operations....
What actually stops the AME issuing a Class 1 medical?
Sorry I've probably phrased it badly, but I'm wondering what medical conditions preclude renewal (obviously assuming you have held Class 1 medical for some years already).
Thanks!
Was just thinking and wonder..... seems so many things now can allow the holder to continue to fly with an OML for multi-pilot operations....
What actually stops the AME issuing a Class 1 medical?
Sorry I've probably phrased it badly, but I'm wondering what medical conditions preclude renewal (obviously assuming you have held Class 1 medical for some years already).
Thanks!
How long is a piece of string?
Just a guess but if the AME becomes aware (either through examination or because you've declared it) of some neurological condition, some heart conditions, most cancers, other than that....deterioriation of eyesight/hearing below required levels...etc.
TBF I don't know of many who have lost licences due to findings during the actual annual/6 monthly examination, but I know of a few who lost licences because they i.a.w. with the regulations declared something to their AME that was discovered by their GP/ a consultant, regardless of whether they were due their medical or not.
To put some numbers on this at outfit we have over 4000 pilots and on average at any one time have probably have around 50-100, plus or minus, who have had licences "pulled" by an AME... most common cause seems to be fractures, and serious strains that will no doubt heal in a few months,, but there's a decent percentage who have been diagnosed with conditions that are more open ended and may end up in termination.
One things for sure, OMLs or not a Class 1 is not guaranted for life.
Just a guess but if the AME becomes aware (either through examination or because you've declared it) of some neurological condition, some heart conditions, most cancers, other than that....deterioriation of eyesight/hearing below required levels...etc.
TBF I don't know of many who have lost licences due to findings during the actual annual/6 monthly examination, but I know of a few who lost licences because they i.a.w. with the regulations declared something to their AME that was discovered by their GP/ a consultant, regardless of whether they were due their medical or not.
To put some numbers on this at outfit we have over 4000 pilots and on average at any one time have probably have around 50-100, plus or minus, who have had licences "pulled" by an AME... most common cause seems to be fractures, and serious strains that will no doubt heal in a few months,, but there's a decent percentage who have been diagnosed with conditions that are more open ended and may end up in termination.
One things for sure, OMLs or not a Class 1 is not guaranted for life.
Last edited by wiggy; 21st Feb 2017 at 06:54.
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Looking through the CAA website, it seems most things are ok with OML....
Most cancers ok provided the blood counts are within set limits, eyesight can be pretty awful provided it can be corrected etc.
I was basically trying to work out if loss of licence insurance is "worth" the money, given it appears to actually be pretty hard to lose your medical once you have it. Obviously it is quite hard to get one in the first place, but at renewal the standards seem to be so much lower!
Most cancers ok provided the blood counts are within set limits, eyesight can be pretty awful provided it can be corrected etc.
I was basically trying to work out if loss of licence insurance is "worth" the money, given it appears to actually be pretty hard to lose your medical once you have it. Obviously it is quite hard to get one in the first place, but at renewal the standards seem to be so much lower!
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I would suggest that the whole point of any insurance policy is to provide some financial security if the unexpected or unlikely actually happens.
Maybe you should approach the question from a different angle; what do various policies actually cover you for? That is, more importantly what are the exclusions. You may find that investing your money as a buffer would be better. But, if you do lose your licence for whatever reason, a good loss of licence policy may well be your best investment in the long run. I suggest you do your research thoroughly before you decide what to do.
Maybe you should approach the question from a different angle; what do various policies actually cover you for? That is, more importantly what are the exclusions. You may find that investing your money as a buffer would be better. But, if you do lose your licence for whatever reason, a good loss of licence policy may well be your best investment in the long run. I suggest you do your research thoroughly before you decide what to do.
I recall seeing stats once in a presentation, cardio-vascular disease is one of, if not the major causes of loss of medical.
I find it staggering the number of people not capable of looking after their own health when their profession depends on it.
I find it staggering the number of people not capable of looking after their own health when their profession depends on it.
Are you really suggesting cardiovascular disease is always self inflicted? I suggest you look at the data. Pilots are far healthier and live far more healthier lives than the general public. They smoke less, drink less and exercise more. To suggest that every pilot who loses their license has only themselves to blame is scientific rubbish.
I recall seeing stats once in a presentation, cardio-vascular disease is one of, if not the major causes of loss of medical.
I find it staggering the number of people not capable of looking after their own health when their profession depends on it.
I find it staggering the number of people not capable of looking after their own health when their profession depends on it.
It can be best avoided by never smoking and choosing better parents.
The rest is skirting around the edges.
As Radgirl says.
Radgirl, it is quite the leap to suggest that my statement about looking after one's own health alludes to me implying that all cardio-vascular disease (a wide ranging term) is self inflicted.
Then I might suggest it would be sensible not to place two totally unrelated sentences next to one another in a single post. We Kiwis were taught how to write english prose!
wright flyer
Really? Perhaps you are thinking of several years after diagnosis, having been recleared to fly with a good prognosis, but the specific and detailed UK issued CAA guidance for initial handling of cancer cases is here:
https://www.caa.co.uk/Aeromedical-Ex...e-material-GM/
From which:
<<On reporting a diagnosis of malignancy, applicants should be assessed as unfit. ( my note: that is any malignancy).
Recertification can be considered following receipt of a satisfactory specialist report........( my note: from an oncologist)
For recertification:
Treatment completed
Full recovery
No symptoms that could affect flight safety
No complications, or if any, appropriate investigation and specialist referral may be required>> (my emphasis)
I think the only relaxation on some of the above is for some melanomas.(?sp).
From what I have heard/seen in the U.K. you are grounded TFN once the disease is diagnosed and you stay grounded until treatment is finished and assessments have been carried out, at which point you may be able to return to flying...which brings us to the all important timescale;
The big problem there is that any chemotherapy bars you from holding a Class 1 and some form of chemo in a treatment plan is almost inevitable, done in conjunction or following radio therapy, surgery etc. That ban applies even to the relatively benign adjuvant chemo courses done at home, which often run for six months or more after surgery or other treatments have been completed. As a result for many "common" cancers you can easily be off work for many months, perhaps a year or more, even if you are asymptomatic from the disease itself..
Looking on the bright side and at the stats it is a disease that has an lowish incidence at the start of an average flying career when your outgoings are probably highest but I would not do a risk assesment based on the assumption you can have "most cancers" and be able to carry on flying whilst undergoing treatment at the same time...
Most cancers ok provided the blood counts are within set limits,
https://www.caa.co.uk/Aeromedical-Ex...e-material-GM/
From which:
<<On reporting a diagnosis of malignancy, applicants should be assessed as unfit. ( my note: that is any malignancy).
Recertification can be considered following receipt of a satisfactory specialist report........( my note: from an oncologist)
For recertification:
Treatment completed
Full recovery
No symptoms that could affect flight safety
No complications, or if any, appropriate investigation and specialist referral may be required>> (my emphasis)
I think the only relaxation on some of the above is for some melanomas.(?sp).
From what I have heard/seen in the U.K. you are grounded TFN once the disease is diagnosed and you stay grounded until treatment is finished and assessments have been carried out, at which point you may be able to return to flying...which brings us to the all important timescale;
The big problem there is that any chemotherapy bars you from holding a Class 1 and some form of chemo in a treatment plan is almost inevitable, done in conjunction or following radio therapy, surgery etc. That ban applies even to the relatively benign adjuvant chemo courses done at home, which often run for six months or more after surgery or other treatments have been completed. As a result for many "common" cancers you can easily be off work for many months, perhaps a year or more, even if you are asymptomatic from the disease itself..
Looking on the bright side and at the stats it is a disease that has an lowish incidence at the start of an average flying career when your outgoings are probably highest but I would not do a risk assesment based on the assumption you can have "most cancers" and be able to carry on flying whilst undergoing treatment at the same time...
Last edited by wiggy; 1st Mar 2017 at 06:43. Reason: brevity
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Hi Wright Flyer,
Just off the cuff - some of the things that would cause loss of license / becoming unfit for a Class I (after clearing the Initial Class I):
(a) An accident causing loss of limb / loss of movement at a joint / loss of vision or hearing / head injury with post traumatic epilepsy
(b) Some neurological disorders which progressively disable the patient like stoke, multiple sclerosis, etc (there also you can fly till a point).
(c) Eye disorders which cause distortion / loss of vision
(d) Poorly controlled blood pressure or diabetes(insulin is generally not acceptable - will have to check if some states accept it)
(d) Some psychiatric disorders
Just a point about the "accident" thing mentioned above - seen a number of pilots who love to drive bikes without helmets or do risky stuff like bungee jumping, etc - personally I wish they would thing twice before they risk their livelihood.
There are a number of things that can cause unfitness but finally I believe it is not always the individual's fault. It could someone else's fault that the individual gets hurt. Sometimes it's just that Finger of God type of thing.
In my view, the insurance should be worth it until you feel you've saved enough to live comfortably even if you lose your primary source of income(that is their USP isn't it!).
But again that's just my take on things.
Just off the cuff - some of the things that would cause loss of license / becoming unfit for a Class I (after clearing the Initial Class I):
(a) An accident causing loss of limb / loss of movement at a joint / loss of vision or hearing / head injury with post traumatic epilepsy
(b) Some neurological disorders which progressively disable the patient like stoke, multiple sclerosis, etc (there also you can fly till a point).
(c) Eye disorders which cause distortion / loss of vision
(d) Poorly controlled blood pressure or diabetes(insulin is generally not acceptable - will have to check if some states accept it)
(d) Some psychiatric disorders
Just a point about the "accident" thing mentioned above - seen a number of pilots who love to drive bikes without helmets or do risky stuff like bungee jumping, etc - personally I wish they would thing twice before they risk their livelihood.
There are a number of things that can cause unfitness but finally I believe it is not always the individual's fault. It could someone else's fault that the individual gets hurt. Sometimes it's just that Finger of God type of thing.
In my view, the insurance should be worth it until you feel you've saved enough to live comfortably even if you lose your primary source of income(that is their USP isn't it!).
But again that's just my take on things.
Kilroy, well said...Prey forgiveness; would the assembled allow me another ramble?...
I think as twin squirrels has said "the whole point of any insurance policy is to provide some financial security if the unexpected or unlikely actually happen", so perhaps the OP might need to approach this from a different angle - e.g. regardless of expense can you afford not to insured or have some form of financial lifeline ?
Having had a think overnight about what I have seen in "our" population in our company I think at least one poster is very optimistic about the ability to avoid illness, so I'll offer the following:
With our over 50 years old we have a handful of people off for almost a year with heart conditions ( e.g. one picked up on non-AME private medical screening, the other "detected" when the individual began having chest pains on the bus to the airport prior to report).
Both those individuals above "looked after themselves", but I think one had family history ( choose your parents wisely is good advice...)
We have several over 50's off with cancers, minimum time off well over 6 months, often a year plus. Again those I know off also "looked after themselves" but despite that... in at least one case it appears to be down to choice of parents, etc...rather than him/her being a chain smoking beer swilling gym hating slob.
Now the above is one reason why premiums get loaded up as you get older, so no doubt that will cue : " But I'm under 50, won't get me, don't drink anything but Cranberry juice, don't smoke, gym bunny, no need for me to be insured ".....Well hate to break it to you but we've lost sub 40 year olds over the years due heart conditions, neurological conditions ( one poor guy, well under 40, had a seizure in flight)...and then of course we have the scattering of those off for months due road/DIY/cycling to keep fit accidents, etc etc...and of course the odd illness due to the random gene....
So in conclusion: something out of the blue can hit anybody, any age, inside or outside of the AME's office and IMHO almost independant of lifestyle. Personally depending on your company's sickness policy I'd always be sure I'd have a plan to last a minimum of 6 months to a year without pay, whether that is insurance or money in the bank investments, etc, is down to the individual..I certainly wouldn't wing it with nil cover on the assumption I couldn't get sick.
I think as twin squirrels has said "the whole point of any insurance policy is to provide some financial security if the unexpected or unlikely actually happen", so perhaps the OP might need to approach this from a different angle - e.g. regardless of expense can you afford not to insured or have some form of financial lifeline ?
Having had a think overnight about what I have seen in "our" population in our company I think at least one poster is very optimistic about the ability to avoid illness, so I'll offer the following:
With our over 50 years old we have a handful of people off for almost a year with heart conditions ( e.g. one picked up on non-AME private medical screening, the other "detected" when the individual began having chest pains on the bus to the airport prior to report).
Both those individuals above "looked after themselves", but I think one had family history ( choose your parents wisely is good advice...)
We have several over 50's off with cancers, minimum time off well over 6 months, often a year plus. Again those I know off also "looked after themselves" but despite that... in at least one case it appears to be down to choice of parents, etc...rather than him/her being a chain smoking beer swilling gym hating slob.
Now the above is one reason why premiums get loaded up as you get older, so no doubt that will cue : " But I'm under 50, won't get me, don't drink anything but Cranberry juice, don't smoke, gym bunny, no need for me to be insured ".....Well hate to break it to you but we've lost sub 40 year olds over the years due heart conditions, neurological conditions ( one poor guy, well under 40, had a seizure in flight)...and then of course we have the scattering of those off for months due road/DIY/cycling to keep fit accidents, etc etc...and of course the odd illness due to the random gene....
So in conclusion: something out of the blue can hit anybody, any age, inside or outside of the AME's office and IMHO almost independant of lifestyle. Personally depending on your company's sickness policy I'd always be sure I'd have a plan to last a minimum of 6 months to a year without pay, whether that is insurance or money in the bank investments, etc, is down to the individual..I certainly wouldn't wing it with nil cover on the assumption I couldn't get sick.
Last edited by wiggy; 1st Mar 2017 at 11:30.
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Hi All, Just a quick question also,
How long can your class 1 expire until you would need to do an initial again? or do you just do a renewal any time?
Had my class 1 initial last year and just realized the medical just expired. Was planning on flying on the class 2 credentials as they are not expired until 2021.
Its an IAA medical class 1 / 2 medical cert - not sure if the rules would be specific IAA or if its a general EASA one ?
How long can your class 1 expire until you would need to do an initial again? or do you just do a renewal any time?
Had my class 1 initial last year and just realized the medical just expired. Was planning on flying on the class 2 credentials as they are not expired until 2021.
Its an IAA medical class 1 / 2 medical cert - not sure if the rules would be specific IAA or if its a general EASA one ?
