High Blood pressure no side effects cure
Psychophysiological entity
I was astonished to be told that a beta-blocker, Atenalol, seems to control blood pressure by lowering the heart rate. It is certain some patients end up with an athlete's rate of 46 - and that's when mobile!
Can the methodology be correct, and indeed, is it a general policy to manipulate the pressure in this way?
Can the methodology be correct, and indeed, is it a general policy to manipulate the pressure in this way?
Psychophysiological entity
The answer is, I don't know. It just seems counter-intuitive.
I considered 50 an athlete's rate when walking about, and now I hear of older people losing all their oomph, and an on the spot check showing 45.
There has to be more than lowering a pump's speed to effect a decrease in pressure. I think of it like electrical power calculations. You can't lower voltage without increasing current - if you want the same overall power. In the same way, I can't see how reducing the heart's rate to 50% can possibly leave the patient with a high enough oxygen-carrying mass flow. Yes, the pressure is down, but the platelet count at any given point must surely be lowered to unacceptable levels.
I considered 50 an athlete's rate when walking about, and now I hear of older people losing all their oomph, and an on the spot check showing 45.
There has to be more than lowering a pump's speed to effect a decrease in pressure. I think of it like electrical power calculations. You can't lower voltage without increasing current - if you want the same overall power. In the same way, I can't see how reducing the heart's rate to 50% can possibly leave the patient with a high enough oxygen-carrying mass flow. Yes, the pressure is down, but the platelet count at any given point must surely be lowered to unacceptable levels.
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the platelet count at any given point must surely be lowered to unacceptable levels.
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I do not have HBP but did over 30 years ago in my early 20s. I get 1st class medicals where BP has always run along the top of normal with occasional tut tuts from the AME.
I came across a product called Alistrol which had rave reviews and was a natural herbal remedy if somewhat expensive.
I tried the product somewhat sceptical and was surprised on the next two medicals of achieving readings of 120/80 down from the usual top of normal.
I am convinced with the product other than the price.
I think we are right to question medication on a condition which is not fully understood and appreciate the lifestyle recommendations made here but I also know some pretty obese bad life stylers who churn out low readings and some pretty good life stylers who are slim and have high readings.
I came across a product called Alistrol which had rave reviews and was a natural herbal remedy if somewhat expensive.
I tried the product somewhat sceptical and was surprised on the next two medicals of achieving readings of 120/80 down from the usual top of normal.
I am convinced with the product other than the price.
I think we are right to question medication on a condition which is not fully understood and appreciate the lifestyle recommendations made here but I also know some pretty obese bad life stylers who churn out low readings and some pretty good life stylers who are slim and have high readings.
Last edited by Pace; 31st Aug 2012 at 12:21.
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I was astonished to be told that a beta-blocker, Atenalol, seems to control blood pressure by lowering the heart rate. It is certain some patients end up with an athlete's rate of 46 - and that's when mobile!
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A few quick things
Not being a doctor but having a Biology/pre-med background and lab research experience looking at BP, pulse rate hormones and other physiological parameters... BP and heart rate are not well correlated and even as heart rate increases and decreases it is more about contractile force as others pointed out, and how well/fast blood vessels dilate/contract. I did research on stress response, physiological response and behavioral correlates, but even here one can see how they are not really matched, BP and heart rate:
Blood Pressure vs. Heart Rate
I am not trying to interrupt your thread discussion, I just thought you may find the input useful.
The lowering of the heart rate itself is not enough to lower BP significantly:
A beta blocker in part below, but this quote is not quite right and this is why confusion can result. Still the and conjunction is used to illustrate more than just heart rate is affected to lower BP, which is correct.
But the total cardiac output is lowered which lowers BP:
Blood Pressure vs. Heart Rate
I am not trying to interrupt your thread discussion, I just thought you may find the input useful.
The lowering of the heart rate itself is not enough to lower BP significantly:
But a heart rate lower than 60 doesn’t usually signal a medical problem. It could be the result of taking a drug such as a beta blocker. A lower heart rate is also common for people who get a lot of physical activity or are very athletic, Stein said. Active people often have lower heart rates because their heart muscle is in better condition and doesn’t need to work as hard to maintain a steady beat.
What the Medication Does
Decreases the heart rate and cardiac output, which lowers blood pressure and makes the heart beat more slowly and with less force.
Decreases the heart rate and cardiac output, which lowers blood pressure and makes the heart beat more slowly and with less force.
Cardiac Output
Cardiac output is the volume of blood pumped by the heart per minute (mL blood/min). Cardiac output is a function of heart rate and stroke volume. The heart rate is simply the number of heart beats per minute. The stroke volume is the volume of blood, in milliliters (mL), pumped out of the heart with each beat. Increasing either heart rate or stroke volume increases cardiac output.
Cardiac Output
Cardiac Output in mL/min = heart rate (beats/min) X stroke volume (mL/beat)
An average person has a resting heart rate of 70 beats/minute and a resting stroke volume of 70 mL/beat. The cardiac output for this person at rest is:
Cardiac Output = 70 (beats/min) X 70 (mL/beat) = 4900 mL/minute.
Cardiac output is the volume of blood pumped by the heart per minute (mL blood/min). Cardiac output is a function of heart rate and stroke volume. The heart rate is simply the number of heart beats per minute. The stroke volume is the volume of blood, in milliliters (mL), pumped out of the heart with each beat. Increasing either heart rate or stroke volume increases cardiac output.
Cardiac Output
Cardiac Output in mL/min = heart rate (beats/min) X stroke volume (mL/beat)
An average person has a resting heart rate of 70 beats/minute and a resting stroke volume of 70 mL/beat. The cardiac output for this person at rest is:
Cardiac Output = 70 (beats/min) X 70 (mL/beat) = 4900 mL/minute.
Last edited by jcbmack; 31st Aug 2012 at 19:19.
Psychophysiological entity
Yes, I've chipped in as well, but it's all grist for the mill. Good stuff. I'll read in tonight Central time.
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I agree with Ausdoc. Until this methodology has been throughly investigated and long term studies carried out, no one really knows how potential side effects will present.
I'm a GP and some 40% of my patients have essential hypertension, and in my practice we do a pretty good job of managing to control their condition with a regime of well proven ACE's; Ca channel blockers, beta-blockers et al and of course it's a trade off between side effects and keeping BP under control.
I'm a GP and some 40% of my patients have essential hypertension, and in my practice we do a pretty good job of managing to control their condition with a regime of well proven ACE's; Ca channel blockers, beta-blockers et al and of course it's a trade off between side effects and keeping BP under control.
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Run
Hi h-da40
It is amazing how doctors "control" the "disease" and not figure out the route cause to the problem.
If you ever mention the words ACE's; Ca channel blockers, beta-blockers...I will run from them and you as far and quickly as I can!
It is amazing how doctors "control" the "disease" and not figure out the route cause to the problem.
If you ever mention the words ACE's; Ca channel blockers, beta-blockers...I will run from them and you as far and quickly as I can!
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Light makes a valid point in that medication is not a cure but a way of controlling the condition (not a disease)
The drug companies would not want a cure to ever be found as sticking people on drugs for life creates a Multi Billion $ industry.
Far better for them to concentrate on research to strengthen their case for prolonged use of the drugs and to put a huge marketing effort into brain washing GPs into becoming sales points for these drugs.
These drugs do have side effects which in themselves can cause damage.
Hence even if this new procedure is not long term tested it may give a better understanding about why HBP occurs in some individuals even with bad lifestyles while not in others with bad lifestyles.
One thing I am sure of is the drug companies would never want a cure found only better tolerated drugs discovered by themselves again which need to be taken for life.
BTW I thought beta blockers themselves have now been discovered to increase the likelihood of heart attacks?
(not medically qualified)
The drug companies would not want a cure to ever be found as sticking people on drugs for life creates a Multi Billion $ industry.
Far better for them to concentrate on research to strengthen their case for prolonged use of the drugs and to put a huge marketing effort into brain washing GPs into becoming sales points for these drugs.
These drugs do have side effects which in themselves can cause damage.
Hence even if this new procedure is not long term tested it may give a better understanding about why HBP occurs in some individuals even with bad lifestyles while not in others with bad lifestyles.
One thing I am sure of is the drug companies would never want a cure found only better tolerated drugs discovered by themselves again which need to be taken for life.
BTW I thought beta blockers themselves have now been discovered to increase the likelihood of heart attacks?
(not medically qualified)
Last edited by Pace; 20th Sep 2012 at 07:33.
I can only offer n=1 advice. My bp used to average about 140/90. (age 56)
...Now minus carting around 50 extra pounds of spare fat, it averages about 117/70 (age 60)
Was it just the weight loss, or the change of diet? I don't know.
No wheat now, and not a lot of fruit any more, perhaps just one piece a week. (I used to often eat 5 pieces of fruit a day! Apparently it's 'good for you')
Don't just let the doctor supply a cushion, stop hitting yourself on the head.
...Now minus carting around 50 extra pounds of spare fat, it averages about 117/70 (age 60)
Was it just the weight loss, or the change of diet? I don't know.
No wheat now, and not a lot of fruit any more, perhaps just one piece a week. (I used to often eat 5 pieces of fruit a day! Apparently it's 'good for you')
Don't just let the doctor supply a cushion, stop hitting yourself on the head.
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High Blood Pressure (Hypertension)
High Blood Pressure (Hypertension)
Just some info that I learned from a Biochemist.
Below is a summary of his(Ben Fuchs) statements made. Any doctors here on this forum could find this interesting?
Summary-
"Don't take medicines to lower it!!
The medicines doctors prescribe are "blockers": Diretics, Beta blocker or Calcium Channel blocker- stupid science!
Diretics- causes the body to flush out fluids...then this will cause that you will also flush out minerals!!
Thus flushing out fluids makes your blood less volume then lowers your blood pressure, however losing minerals causes higher blood pressure i.e. Magnesium, Potassium, Calsium, Sodium is suppose to regulate blood pressure!
Run away if you hear the word "Blockers", because they poison the Beta nervous system(the Beta system regulates your heart), they poison your circulatory system to lower your blood pressure- stupid!!
High blood pressure (Stress response) is simple to treat-How-
...note, you have 2 nervous systems in the body: Stress and relaxing system
Easiest:
1. activate the relaxing system by deep breathing (oxygen)
Supplement with lots of alternates:
2. VitB3 (Niacin) it opens the blood vessels(Note Niacin flush- use time release Niacin)
Electrolytes minerals...
3. Magnesium
4. Potassium, Calsium, Sodium(BTT)
Amino Acid -Torine
VitB6, Coq10, Carnetine, Chronium, VitC....No side effects.
You dont need a drug!!"
Just some info that I learned from a Biochemist.
Below is a summary of his(Ben Fuchs) statements made. Any doctors here on this forum could find this interesting?
Summary-
"Don't take medicines to lower it!!
The medicines doctors prescribe are "blockers": Diretics, Beta blocker or Calcium Channel blocker- stupid science!
Diretics- causes the body to flush out fluids...then this will cause that you will also flush out minerals!!
Thus flushing out fluids makes your blood less volume then lowers your blood pressure, however losing minerals causes higher blood pressure i.e. Magnesium, Potassium, Calsium, Sodium is suppose to regulate blood pressure!
Run away if you hear the word "Blockers", because they poison the Beta nervous system(the Beta system regulates your heart), they poison your circulatory system to lower your blood pressure- stupid!!
High blood pressure (Stress response) is simple to treat-How-
...note, you have 2 nervous systems in the body: Stress and relaxing system
Easiest:
1. activate the relaxing system by deep breathing (oxygen)
Supplement with lots of alternates:
2. VitB3 (Niacin) it opens the blood vessels(Note Niacin flush- use time release Niacin)
Electrolytes minerals...
3. Magnesium
4. Potassium, Calsium, Sodium(BTT)
Amino Acid -Torine
VitB6, Coq10, Carnetine, Chronium, VitC....No side effects.
You dont need a drug!!"
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Light,
I am also 'working' on my BP. First you need to buy one of these BP testers so you can measure BP yourself. It is a good investment.
I read 'The Sinatra Solution' and he recommends CoQ10, L-Carnitine, D-Ribose, Magnesium. He is a cardiologist with lots of experience. In his book you will read why.
Calcium tends to tension the muscles while magnesium relaxes them.
I am also 'working' on my BP. First you need to buy one of these BP testers so you can measure BP yourself. It is a good investment.
I read 'The Sinatra Solution' and he recommends CoQ10, L-Carnitine, D-Ribose, Magnesium. He is a cardiologist with lots of experience. In his book you will read why.
Calcium tends to tension the muscles while magnesium relaxes them.
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I started this thread as this new technique seemed to offer a new insight into a misunderstood condition where the only treatment is a lifelong bombardment with drugs which themselves have side effects some which are intolerable to some!
Why does one 20 stone bad living individual have normal blood pressure while a skinny good living person has high ?
Why is it genetic? Whole families ending up with the condition?
Drugs like it or not are big business cures are not ? Well at least not for the multi billion dollar drug companies.
A better understanding and eventual cure has to be far better than a life long
Bombardment with drugs which are harmful in many ways
Why does one 20 stone bad living individual have normal blood pressure while a skinny good living person has high ?
Why is it genetic? Whole families ending up with the condition?
Drugs like it or not are big business cures are not ? Well at least not for the multi billion dollar drug companies.
A better understanding and eventual cure has to be far better than a life long
Bombardment with drugs which are harmful in many ways
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On 5 drugs after a very, very major episode 2 years ago. I measure BP, sats etc. twice a day using relatively sophisticated consumer gear. Partly because I present a bunch of data to the hospital every quarter, from the 2nd anniversary it will rely on me to self-medicate based on my interpretation of my numbers, and will supply a nominal 91-day set of medication. I can't choose which of the drugs I take: I either take all, or I miss all that day. I closely follow the hospital diet and I got a taste for hibiscus tea. There is apparently no magic here: you keep the blood thin enough to move through freshly-scraped-out vessels, while keeping the volume down to stop those vessels popping. The hospital has taught me to juggle. My target is to get back to a diuretic- and diet-based solution. The diet is spectacularly good and varied; there is no food boredom.
I also do voluntary stress testing to work out maximum heart rates, etc, and I'm lucky my particular hospital has enough spare capacity, if you will, to work with patients who take an active part in their own health care.
I routinely hike mountains about 1000 meters, recently above 2500 meters. I carry off-the-mountain insurance and I do have a sat-based panic button.
As an aside, the hospital does full disclosure in a nation which doesn't normally do that: I was at 90% survival rate for the 3 months after the op, but then 75% for the failure period after that, and am now back at 98%. They also explain the difference between "rate" and "absolute"
. "Rates may go down as well as up" was a bit of a shocker.
So, if you don't like the drugs, find some way of convincing the hospital you are willing to participate in your own destiny. You might be surprised to discover how much flexibility is out there.
I also do voluntary stress testing to work out maximum heart rates, etc, and I'm lucky my particular hospital has enough spare capacity, if you will, to work with patients who take an active part in their own health care.
I routinely hike mountains about 1000 meters, recently above 2500 meters. I carry off-the-mountain insurance and I do have a sat-based panic button.
As an aside, the hospital does full disclosure in a nation which doesn't normally do that: I was at 90% survival rate for the 3 months after the op, but then 75% for the failure period after that, and am now back at 98%. They also explain the difference between "rate" and "absolute"
. "Rates may go down as well as up" was a bit of a shocker.So, if you don't like the drugs, find some way of convincing the hospital you are willing to participate in your own destiny. You might be surprised to discover how much flexibility is out there.
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Bushfiva
I do not think anyone is questioning drugs for serious illness. Only yesterday there was a piece on the radio about the death of a scientist who disovered drugs which keep HIV patients in a fairly normal life.
In my eyes drugs are a failure because they are not the Cure! HIV should at sometime be cured! HBP should be cured not controlled.
If as much money was spent researching cures as is spent finding new money spinner drugs maybe we would have more cures by now!
When I here about over 50 pills for everyone it worries me not just about the benefits of mass medication but about the motives of those who market the idea!
I do not think anyone is questioning drugs for serious illness. Only yesterday there was a piece on the radio about the death of a scientist who disovered drugs which keep HIV patients in a fairly normal life.
In my eyes drugs are a failure because they are not the Cure! HIV should at sometime be cured! HBP should be cured not controlled.
If as much money was spent researching cures as is spent finding new money spinner drugs maybe we would have more cures by now!
When I here about over 50 pills for everyone it worries me not just about the benefits of mass medication but about the motives of those who market the idea!
