Woman Dies from Economy Class Syndrome
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It is a well-known scientific fact that the consumption of alcohol thins the blood. - More alcohol, more thinning!
How about that for preventative medecine
"Flight Attendant. yet another G & T please"
(Serious note:- See the PAX/SLF forum for more detailed info)
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---- "Per Ardua ad Mixas" ----
(Through hardship to the bars)
[This message has been edited by ExSimGuy (edited 23 October 2000).]
How about that for preventative medecine
"Flight Attendant. yet another G & T please"
(Serious note:- See the PAX/SLF forum for more detailed info)
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---- "Per Ardua ad Mixas" ----
(Through hardship to the bars)
[This message has been edited by ExSimGuy (edited 23 October 2000).]
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Details can be found in the following thread
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/000105.html
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Laat me het meer oversteken en ik zal niet bang meer zijn van een beek.
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/000105.html
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Laat me het meer oversteken en ik zal niet bang meer zijn van een beek.
Guest
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This tends to show that the ultra large, ultra long range aircraft like the B747-400X and A3XX won't work - unless they do go ahead with the swimming pools, shopping malls etc!
When I fly to the Far East or Oz, I've always done so in First - and believe me, getting off the aircraft in AMS or FRA (in the case of SQ JFK-SIN) or in SIN/BKK (in the case of LHR-SYD/MEL) never felt so good. The longest flight I ever had in Y was from SYD to LAX - and that was an absolute nightmare.
Sure, the airlines save themselves the costs of a tech stop - but what's that against the life of even one pax?
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Happiness is a warm L1011
When I fly to the Far East or Oz, I've always done so in First - and believe me, getting off the aircraft in AMS or FRA (in the case of SQ JFK-SIN) or in SIN/BKK (in the case of LHR-SYD/MEL) never felt so good. The longest flight I ever had in Y was from SYD to LAX - and that was an absolute nightmare.
Sure, the airlines save themselves the costs of a tech stop - but what's that against the life of even one pax?
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Happiness is a warm L1011
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From today's Telegraph...
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Happiness is a warm L1011
THE circulation in the legs relies largely on muscle movement to keep the
blood flowing.
Most travellers know how legs and feet can swell on long journeys.
Thousands have developed traveller's thrombosis, not just in economy class
or on aircraft; long train or bus journeys can be as bad. The risk is higher in
older people, but other factors include pregnancy and the contraceptive pill.
Both stimulate clotting. A clot can form and grow to a dangerous size within
hours if blood flow is obstructed or slowed.
The fatal complication is a pulmonary embolism, when a clot blocks lung
circulation, causing immediate death. The best way to prevent thrombosis is to
walk up and down the aisle every hour or so. Contracting and relaxing leg
muscles while sitting is better than nothing. Aspirin is convenient, cheap and
might give some protection.
Dr Slater is a consultant haematologist
blood flowing.
Most travellers know how legs and feet can swell on long journeys.
Thousands have developed traveller's thrombosis, not just in economy class
or on aircraft; long train or bus journeys can be as bad. The risk is higher in
older people, but other factors include pregnancy and the contraceptive pill.
Both stimulate clotting. A clot can form and grow to a dangerous size within
hours if blood flow is obstructed or slowed.
The fatal complication is a pulmonary embolism, when a clot blocks lung
circulation, causing immediate death. The best way to prevent thrombosis is to
walk up and down the aisle every hour or so. Contracting and relaxing leg
muscles while sitting is better than nothing. Aspirin is convenient, cheap and
might give some protection.
Dr Slater is a consultant haematologist
Happiness is a warm L1011
Guest
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Alcohol would actually have a detremental effect on this. Alcohol is a vaso-dilator, meaning it increases the blood flow to the outer blood vessels, reducing the flow in deeper veins and thus increase the risk of clotting (it is also a diuretic which of course leads to exercise as noted by Goldie)
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All very well and good telling pax they should move around if pax are actually given any time to get out of their seats! Service is now so long winded that one of the major gripes that we in the back get is that because of carts etc in the aisle, pax are given no time to walk around.
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A very Sad event indeed. I've heard that there are a few other factors. Apparently whilst on holiday the young lady in question had participated in Skydiving & Scuba diving,
which can contribute to this sort of thing if proper time out is not taken before boarding a flight.
Plus statistically it is no more likely to happen in Y as in F or C classes.
Again, a very sad event,but,let's keep things in perspective before all our clients get scared off.
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You fly em we'll fill em!
which can contribute to this sort of thing if proper time out is not taken before boarding a flight.
Plus statistically it is no more likely to happen in Y as in F or C classes.
Again, a very sad event,but,let's keep things in perspective before all our clients get scared off.
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You fly em we'll fill em!
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Very bad show!
"Keep it in perspective?"
Simple fact: She died due to Corporate greed. These to$$ers (sorry but I'm absolutely fuming) didn't provide adequate legroom to stretch her legs and she died. And I'm afraid that statistics would show that seat pitch (and thus class) is directly relevant to the formation of deep vein thromboses.
Airlines need to give us all more legroom right now, especially those of us who are buying our own tickets, and who thus may have to travel economy.
Advice: Take 1/2 an aspirin (but how long before?) to thin the blood. Avoid all alcohol and drink soft drinks/water endlessly - that will prevent dehydration (a factor in this) and force you to walk up and down to the toilet. (Walking once per hour is vital, if you're cooped up like this). And stretch your legs even more frequently. Don't worry about disrupting the trolley - that's just for airline profits (or to keep you quiet) anyway. You're the passenger, you're the customer, and as such these people (pilots, airline execs et al) are there to serve you. And if you don't have enough legroom, make a fuss, loudly, and don't fly with that airline again.
And as airline pilots, don't some of you have a duty of care to those who you fly around? What are you doing to encourage your employers to provide better conditions in what you so quaintly refer to as 'cattle class'? Don't warn us not to talk about it, not to frighten the horses (cattle/pax) - do something about it.
"Keep it in perspective?"
Simple fact: She died due to Corporate greed. These to$$ers (sorry but I'm absolutely fuming) didn't provide adequate legroom to stretch her legs and she died. And I'm afraid that statistics would show that seat pitch (and thus class) is directly relevant to the formation of deep vein thromboses.
Airlines need to give us all more legroom right now, especially those of us who are buying our own tickets, and who thus may have to travel economy.
Advice: Take 1/2 an aspirin (but how long before?) to thin the blood. Avoid all alcohol and drink soft drinks/water endlessly - that will prevent dehydration (a factor in this) and force you to walk up and down to the toilet. (Walking once per hour is vital, if you're cooped up like this). And stretch your legs even more frequently. Don't worry about disrupting the trolley - that's just for airline profits (or to keep you quiet) anyway. You're the passenger, you're the customer, and as such these people (pilots, airline execs et al) are there to serve you. And if you don't have enough legroom, make a fuss, loudly, and don't fly with that airline again.
And as airline pilots, don't some of you have a duty of care to those who you fly around? What are you doing to encourage your employers to provide better conditions in what you so quaintly refer to as 'cattle class'? Don't warn us not to talk about it, not to frighten the horses (cattle/pax) - do something about it.
Guest
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Ok Mr. Swift
Leg Room amd Space no problem
Pay for it !!!!
You can't travel around the world for nothing like most of the world thinks you can
There are just too many people who try to earn a living from this scenario
Prices in Economy are already ridiculous
competition its called,
You get nothing for NOTHING in this world
Leg Room amd Space no problem
Pay for it !!!!
You can't travel around the world for nothing like most of the world thinks you can
There are just too many people who try to earn a living from this scenario
Prices in Economy are already ridiculous
competition its called,
You get nothing for NOTHING in this world
Guest
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James - let me tell you about my holiday to Australia. I looked through all the specialist brochures for the flights (yes, I was paying for my own ticket), all of which specified the airlines seat pitch. Naturally, the shortest pitch also meant the cheapest ticket. I decided I was prepared to take the inconvenience for a cheap ticket, rang up months in advance to book. Surprise surprise, they're all sold out.Plenty of seat on the big pitch/big price airlines though.
The long-winded point I am making is that there's no point raging against the airlines if people aren't prepared to pay for extra space. We're businesses, not charities. We can't take out 10% of the economy seats without upping the price by 10%, then we're priced out of the market. If you want to travel 10000 miles for less cost per mile than a Bombay rickshaw then you have to accept it's going to be a tight squeeze. There's no way round it. Responsible airlines (like mine) include lots of info in the magazines about the need to get the blood moving but it's down to the individual to heed this advice. When you have a 14 hour sector you can't say there are no gaps in the service in which to stretch your legs in the aisles. If you're in a window seat and don't want to disturb the guys in seats B & C then thats your business, but it's your health your risking. As airline pilots we are responsible for our passengers welfare, but there's a whole field out there called aviation medicine, and its practitioners will tell you that flying is physically and mentally demanding. It's also up to those who choose to partake to take responsibility for their own health.
The long-winded point I am making is that there's no point raging against the airlines if people aren't prepared to pay for extra space. We're businesses, not charities. We can't take out 10% of the economy seats without upping the price by 10%, then we're priced out of the market. If you want to travel 10000 miles for less cost per mile than a Bombay rickshaw then you have to accept it's going to be a tight squeeze. There's no way round it. Responsible airlines (like mine) include lots of info in the magazines about the need to get the blood moving but it's down to the individual to heed this advice. When you have a 14 hour sector you can't say there are no gaps in the service in which to stretch your legs in the aisles. If you're in a window seat and don't want to disturb the guys in seats B & C then thats your business, but it's your health your risking. As airline pilots we are responsible for our passengers welfare, but there's a whole field out there called aviation medicine, and its practitioners will tell you that flying is physically and mentally demanding. It's also up to those who choose to partake to take responsibility for their own health.
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What would you have us do James? All the in-flight magazines encourage you to move around the cabin, drink plenty of fluids etc etc.
I don't believe seat pitch is the major culprit here. An inactive first class passenger with a predisposition to this would be just as much at risk.
I don't believe seat pitch is the major culprit here. An inactive first class passenger with a predisposition to this would be just as much at risk.
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I'd like to see a uniform standards number like 28-29-30..34 (seat pitch) in a circle placed on all airline adverts. Much like the mpg for cars or the kWh for household appliances. This could be a standard governed by ATOL or IATA. Afterall, all you're paying for is the seat.
[This message has been edited by 1-A (edited 23 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 1-A (edited 23 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 1-A (edited 23 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 1-A (edited 23 October 2000).]
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As a jet skipper and someone who (as a pax) had a DVT and PE (and survived), I feel I am qualified to comment on this thread.
In 1991 I flew BKK-LHR on BA on an ID90 ticket and got what must have been the last available seat on the 747. I was seated in the middle seat of a row of five at the rear of the a/c and being effectively blocked in together with the consumption of alcohol kept me in the seat for just about all the flight. Looking back, the conditions were perfect-(relatively)low pressure in the cabin, inertia leading to stasis and pooling of the blood, no exercise.
After being home for a couple of days I became aware of pain in my calf. Consulted the GP (who to be fair did mention the possibility of a thrombosis) and was prescribed a muscle-relief gel. Needless to say this had no effect. I worked for two days (!) then went sick. I then began to experience pain in my side which prevented me from lying down. After a very uncomfortable night spent upright in an armchair and by now coughing blood I decided that something was severely wrong and that it was about time I called the doctor. When she arrived an ambulance was immediately called and into Bart's I went. The treatment is very straightforward- a heparin drip to dissolve the clot and long-term warfarin to thin the blood. Some of the associated tests are not very pleasant particularly the angiogram. The worst aspect of all was trying to get the medical profession (Bart's, my AME, my GP, the CAA) to agree that I was cured and that I could have my Class One back and return to work. It seemed that none of the foregoing wanted to take responsibility. Anyway after being off for three months I did return to work with no further recurrence.
What did I learn from this? Well I learned that you can die from a DVT and PE. Whilst it can occur in any seat, I know that First and Business offer more room to move around but when I travel long-haul in economy (and I have travelled longhaul as a pax many times since this event) I ensure that I am in an aisle seat and I move around the cabin at least every hour and if that disturbs fellow pax and the cabin service, well too bad. I also do stretching exercises whilst in my seat, I don't drink alcohol anymore, just plenty of water-as a previous post suggested, this ensures you need to make frequent trips to the toilet. I also take low-dose (Junior) aspirin tablets prior to the flight. Although I haven't used them the Bart's consultant recommended surgical stockings. Another thing the consultant mentioned was that it was his belief that many cases of DVT as a result of longhaul air travel occurred annually but were never reported as they went away of their own accord and did not develop into a Pulmonary Embolism. I certainly feel that the longhaul carriers owe a duty to their passengers to emphasise the possible risks rather more than they do at the moment. A brief mention in the in-flight magazine is too little and much too late.
[This message has been edited by olympus (edited 23 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by olympus (edited 23 October 2000).]
In 1991 I flew BKK-LHR on BA on an ID90 ticket and got what must have been the last available seat on the 747. I was seated in the middle seat of a row of five at the rear of the a/c and being effectively blocked in together with the consumption of alcohol kept me in the seat for just about all the flight. Looking back, the conditions were perfect-(relatively)low pressure in the cabin, inertia leading to stasis and pooling of the blood, no exercise.
After being home for a couple of days I became aware of pain in my calf. Consulted the GP (who to be fair did mention the possibility of a thrombosis) and was prescribed a muscle-relief gel. Needless to say this had no effect. I worked for two days (!) then went sick. I then began to experience pain in my side which prevented me from lying down. After a very uncomfortable night spent upright in an armchair and by now coughing blood I decided that something was severely wrong and that it was about time I called the doctor. When she arrived an ambulance was immediately called and into Bart's I went. The treatment is very straightforward- a heparin drip to dissolve the clot and long-term warfarin to thin the blood. Some of the associated tests are not very pleasant particularly the angiogram. The worst aspect of all was trying to get the medical profession (Bart's, my AME, my GP, the CAA) to agree that I was cured and that I could have my Class One back and return to work. It seemed that none of the foregoing wanted to take responsibility. Anyway after being off for three months I did return to work with no further recurrence.
What did I learn from this? Well I learned that you can die from a DVT and PE. Whilst it can occur in any seat, I know that First and Business offer more room to move around but when I travel long-haul in economy (and I have travelled longhaul as a pax many times since this event) I ensure that I am in an aisle seat and I move around the cabin at least every hour and if that disturbs fellow pax and the cabin service, well too bad. I also do stretching exercises whilst in my seat, I don't drink alcohol anymore, just plenty of water-as a previous post suggested, this ensures you need to make frequent trips to the toilet. I also take low-dose (Junior) aspirin tablets prior to the flight. Although I haven't used them the Bart's consultant recommended surgical stockings. Another thing the consultant mentioned was that it was his belief that many cases of DVT as a result of longhaul air travel occurred annually but were never reported as they went away of their own accord and did not develop into a Pulmonary Embolism. I certainly feel that the longhaul carriers owe a duty to their passengers to emphasise the possible risks rather more than they do at the moment. A brief mention in the in-flight magazine is too little and much too late.
[This message has been edited by olympus (edited 23 October 2000).]
[This message has been edited by olympus (edited 23 October 2000).]
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There clearly needs to be a degree of compulsion on the airlines here, since passenger safety seems to be viewed as 'charity' and the passengers' own responsibility. Poor ducks are such marginal, profitless businesses anyway, of course. But remember that those stupid enough to travel in economy are actually the people who fill the aeroplanes. First Class is nice to have, but without the proles you'd still be flying 20-seaters across the pond!
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According to the Independent this morning, staying hydrated may be risky in itself if you rely on the aircraft water fountains: 15% of samples checked by the UK Public Health Laboratory Service in August this year failed to meet the required standards. So bring your own Evian!
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James - There seems little point in discussing this further with you as it's clear you'll only settle for one solution - bigger seats at no cost to yourself. It isn't going to happen, get used to it, and get used to the idea of going for a walk mid flight like the rest of us do.
Safety isn't charity, but for no cost I'll be happy to suggest options to prevent DVT to any pax who asks me. Of course, they won't be economy pax 'cos they'll all have stoppped flying by then. I'll just have to save my words for all those high yield pax on my A319CJ. Bring it on!
Safety isn't charity, but for no cost I'll be happy to suggest options to prevent DVT to any pax who asks me. Of course, they won't be economy pax 'cos they'll all have stoppped flying by then. I'll just have to save my words for all those high yield pax on my A319CJ. Bring it on!
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The research shows the following are the main precipitators of DVT (vein and venous are both correct, pedants!), but there are others:
The best approach as far as I'm concerned is 300mg of aspirin on boarding, or an injection of unfractionated heparin which will last 24 hours (I know some nurses who do the latter having knicked it from work!); walking every hour or so, flappin your feet around while sitting, and drinking enough soft drink that your mouth doesn't feel dry and you have to pee every 4 hours.
Women please keep taking the Pill - there's a higher risk of DVT after abortions, like any other operation.
I've seen a few, and they usually seem to be on the return journey when passengers fulfil most of the criteria above. Of course if you have Protein C or S deficiency, lupus, or anything similar, you should make sure you're on warfarin (or at least aspirin) unless your doctor tells you there's a good reason not to.
- Dehydration (alcohol is a diuretic and dehydrates you therefore THICKENING the blood, the rapidly circulating dry air on planes, lying in the sun for hours on holiday getting the last drop of sun before the flight, not enough free soft drinks on flights)
- Immobility (no leg room, narrow aisles preventing people passing freely,)
- Smoking (risk factor for DVT on Terra Firma)
- Oral contraceptive pill (for the ladies, obviously)
The best approach as far as I'm concerned is 300mg of aspirin on boarding, or an injection of unfractionated heparin which will last 24 hours (I know some nurses who do the latter having knicked it from work!); walking every hour or so, flappin your feet around while sitting, and drinking enough soft drink that your mouth doesn't feel dry and you have to pee every 4 hours.
Women please keep taking the Pill - there's a higher risk of DVT after abortions, like any other operation.
I've seen a few, and they usually seem to be on the return journey when passengers fulfil most of the criteria above. Of course if you have Protein C or S deficiency, lupus, or anything similar, you should make sure you're on warfarin (or at least aspirin) unless your doctor tells you there's a good reason not to.
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I'm a mere pax who would gladly pay 10% more for my ticket for more leg room (that being the figure that a few have suggested). Flying anything more than economy, when one has to pay for their own ticket, is a lot more than 100%. I know, I just checked. It's going to be cattle long haul for me again soon. The last few times were damn near unbearable. I especially love it when there's a not much longer than average-sized male behind me, which means knees in the back and not being able to recline my seat, on top of it all. And I do sit in the aisle, and get up, and all that. And it's horrible. Something's got to be done. I would gladly pay a couple hundred pounds or dollars more to be able to move my legs and recline. The price I was recently quoted for the next class up for my coming trip was _thousands_ more. That's ridiculous.
Oh, and by the way, not everyone can take aspirin, either. It's dangerous for a lot of asthmatics, as well as others.
Oh, and by the way, not everyone can take aspirin, either. It's dangerous for a lot of asthmatics, as well as others.