Company organized medical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Company organized medical
Hi all
I am not a pilot, but I am saving up for it. In the mean time I have had 3 class 1 medicals and now over due a renewal by about 4 months. My question regards my company (not flying related at all) wants 'us' to have a medical. Thing is, I don't have a good relationship with the company and simply don't trust them with my personal data (long story, but briefly, all our personal details were open for all company staff to view on a computer network) so really I don't wish for them to know anymore about me other than who I am and where to put the money at the end of the month. They will get an outside company to do this. Now, when it comes to ME, I want a say where and who does a medical (on my own terms really) and my choice would be of course the CAA. I have already been humiliated by my company by them making me have a Drugs and alcohol test last week because 4 weeks ago at work I twisted my ankle. While I appreciate these tests are necessary in all sorts of work places, I don't like some stranger watching me pee in a cup. Apparently this chap does these tests on pilots as well, so anyone on here had the same thing with that?
Anyway, my main question is this. Can I say 'no' to my company and refuse the medical and ask instead if they pay for my CAA class 1, or do I not have a leg to stand on? BTW, I tuped to this company, I did not go looking for them. I know this might be off the aviation theme on this forum, but it does seem the right place to ask this. I apologize in-advance if not.
I thank you
I am not a pilot, but I am saving up for it. In the mean time I have had 3 class 1 medicals and now over due a renewal by about 4 months. My question regards my company (not flying related at all) wants 'us' to have a medical. Thing is, I don't have a good relationship with the company and simply don't trust them with my personal data (long story, but briefly, all our personal details were open for all company staff to view on a computer network) so really I don't wish for them to know anymore about me other than who I am and where to put the money at the end of the month. They will get an outside company to do this. Now, when it comes to ME, I want a say where and who does a medical (on my own terms really) and my choice would be of course the CAA. I have already been humiliated by my company by them making me have a Drugs and alcohol test last week because 4 weeks ago at work I twisted my ankle. While I appreciate these tests are necessary in all sorts of work places, I don't like some stranger watching me pee in a cup. Apparently this chap does these tests on pilots as well, so anyone on here had the same thing with that?
Anyway, my main question is this. Can I say 'no' to my company and refuse the medical and ask instead if they pay for my CAA class 1, or do I not have a leg to stand on? BTW, I tuped to this company, I did not go looking for them. I know this might be off the aviation theme on this forum, but it does seem the right place to ask this. I apologize in-advance if not.
I thank you
Guest
Posts: n/a
In my opinion (not legally trained or anything!) your first port of call should be your contract. Does it mention that your continued employemnt is "subject to satisfactory health checks " or the like?
For your average person I would think this is highly unlikely , although if you are engaged in a particular type of job such as public transportation , where intoxication and the like are big no nos then it may be more likely.
Are you a member of a union? If so this is exactly what you pay your fees for.
For your average person I would think this is highly unlikely , although if you are engaged in a particular type of job such as public transportation , where intoxication and the like are big no nos then it may be more likely.
Are you a member of a union? If so this is exactly what you pay your fees for.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi muppetbum
My contract does state I need a medical, but I was with the original company for over 5 years and never had one 'through them', but since I TUPED across to the new company this contract still stands. I have a big issue with them getting an outside company in thats all. And as I have said, I don't trust them. Unfortunately/fortunately I am not a member of any union. Some of the other guys are, and the reps were useless and did nothing to assist during the TUPE thing.
I am not sure if the job I do requires a medical really. I dont drive a bus or anything like that, but I work on the roads. Everyone who joins this company is required to have this medical and that included office staff.
My contract does state I need a medical, but I was with the original company for over 5 years and never had one 'through them', but since I TUPED across to the new company this contract still stands. I have a big issue with them getting an outside company in thats all. And as I have said, I don't trust them. Unfortunately/fortunately I am not a member of any union. Some of the other guys are, and the reps were useless and did nothing to assist during the TUPE thing.
I am not sure if the job I do requires a medical really. I dont drive a bus or anything like that, but I work on the roads. Everyone who joins this company is required to have this medical and that included office staff.
Guest
Posts: n/a
There is a world of difference between requiring a medical on commencement of employment and just deciding to spring this on you unannounced
I'm afraid I don't know what "TUPED" means in this context.
If you have been with this company for a significant period time and your terms of employment have carried over then I'm not sure they can insist.
I'm afraid I don't know what "TUPED" means in this context.
If you have been with this company for a significant period time and your terms of employment have carried over then I'm not sure they can insist.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
muppetbum
TUPE means 'transfer of undertakings of personal employment'. It should protect the employee as under this, the new company has to honor your terms of employment (my contract). So although I have changed companies, I still have continuous employment. Right now, I have over 5 years with my old company and that continues with the new company...I will still get my carriage clock in 5 years time as it's 10 years in total I have in employment. Anyway, my old company never exercised this medical caviat in the last 5 years, BUT this new company says it's 'company policy'.
TUPE means 'transfer of undertakings of personal employment'. It should protect the employee as under this, the new company has to honor your terms of employment (my contract). So although I have changed companies, I still have continuous employment. Right now, I have over 5 years with my old company and that continues with the new company...I will still get my carriage clock in 5 years time as it's 10 years in total I have in employment. Anyway, my old company never exercised this medical caviat in the last 5 years, BUT this new company says it's 'company policy'.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I wonder just what the company policy is ? If it is that employees are required to undergo a medical prior to employemnt then I would say "tough", as this doesn't count as prior to employment.
I suspect what you need though , if you wish to pursue this is some competent legal advice.
I suspect what you need though , if you wish to pursue this is some competent legal advice.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My advice is to have the medical. If it is a requirement of the job (just like flying,) then put up with it. If an outside contractor is employed by your company to undertake these medicals then any concerns about your personal data being on company computers seems fairly unlikely. If you don't like being watched "peeing into a cup" then ask to do it in private or turn away from the doctor. I can't help feeling you are worrying a lot about very little.
Of course you can refuse to undertake the medical, although you seem to indicate that it is a contractual requirement? Ultimately the choice is yours, but it still seems the easiest route is simply get it over with.
Of course you can refuse to undertake the medical, although you seem to indicate that it is a contractual requirement? Ultimately the choice is yours, but it still seems the easiest route is simply get it over with.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's probably easier where I work to 'shut up and put up' . That means doing the medical, as it's best not to 'create ripples in the water'. To understand the issues where I work, you need to be there really.
All I need to be careful of and what I am worried about is not to do things that are not in my contract as my company might say in the future I have agreed to do 'such and such' (like the Drugs and Alcohol test) even though it's not in my terms and conditions, and that they might expect me to do other things that aren't in my terms and conditions in the future.
Reference the peeing in the cup, Bealzebub, the 'doctor' stated that it should not be private as people do fake these urine tests and he needed to be there to make sure. Yes, I understand some people do this, but I have nothing to hide . The tests I did at the CAA at Gatwick were done in private and thats what I thought would happen. I am a private sort of person and did not wish to lose my dignity by having a complete stranger want to watch me 'go'. He went on to say that in order to do it in private, the room would need to be, as he put it "sealed up". It was only because I insisted that I shut the door that he relented, nether-the-less, it was embarrassing enough with him just outside the door, and then him proceeding to pour the sample into tubes, asking me to hold one as he seals the first sample. I had not even washed my hands. The experience for me was actually quite upsetting...the whole process.
I suspect this thread is somewhat out of the scope on the medical forum by now as well, so I would like to say a thank you to both of you for the advice given. I have a month to wait and things might change by then as it's not just me who is uneasy about this company doing this.
All I need to be careful of and what I am worried about is not to do things that are not in my contract as my company might say in the future I have agreed to do 'such and such' (like the Drugs and Alcohol test) even though it's not in my terms and conditions, and that they might expect me to do other things that aren't in my terms and conditions in the future.
Reference the peeing in the cup, Bealzebub, the 'doctor' stated that it should not be private as people do fake these urine tests and he needed to be there to make sure. Yes, I understand some people do this, but I have nothing to hide . The tests I did at the CAA at Gatwick were done in private and thats what I thought would happen. I am a private sort of person and did not wish to lose my dignity by having a complete stranger want to watch me 'go'. He went on to say that in order to do it in private, the room would need to be, as he put it "sealed up". It was only because I insisted that I shut the door that he relented, nether-the-less, it was embarrassing enough with him just outside the door, and then him proceeding to pour the sample into tubes, asking me to hold one as he seals the first sample. I had not even washed my hands. The experience for me was actually quite upsetting...the whole process.
I suspect this thread is somewhat out of the scope on the medical forum by now as well, so I would like to say a thank you to both of you for the advice given. I have a month to wait and things might change by then as it's not just me who is uneasy about this company doing this.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: long left base EGCC
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
absolutely outrageous . . . . . . .
Reference the peeing in the cup, Bealzebub, the 'doctor' stated that it should not be private as people do fake these urine tests and he needed to be there to make sure. Yes, I understand some people do this, but I have nothing to hide . The tests I did at the CAA at Gatwick were done in private and thats what I thought would happen
It is true that there are certain circumstances where, if an individual were minded so to do, security lapses with things like urine specimens could give false results. However, it should always be possible to arrange for a sample to be produced and tested while leaving the candidate's human dignity intact.
Irrespective of your concerns about the rest of the procedure and arrangements, that one thing is an absolutely massive failing on the part of the doctor and/ or the company employing him. At the very least, the company concerned should be informed of your distress in no uncertain terms. If you felt strongly enough about it, the General Medical Council would also be interested to hear of this behaviour. I speak as one who has had much lesser matters reported to the GMC, and been called upon to explain my actions.
Last edited by C172 Hawk XP; 7th Jan 2009 at 07:37. Reason: punctuation error . . . .
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi C172 Hawk XP.
Before the end of the week I am going to see my line manager about this. I actually don't know if he was a doctor or not. The bloke who did the breathalyser and urine sample worked for one of those call out type companies and it never occurred to me to ask if he was a proper medically trained doctor. Thats my fault.
The twist to this is, I refused to have the Drugs and Alcohol test in the first place as all I did was (badly) sprained my ankle at work, and because of their policy's I had to have one of these. Technically the test should have been done the day it happened. So from the hospital where I was given a lift to, I should have gone to the office for an immediate test. I was off for a month due to the accident. Anyway, I asked what the penalty would be if I did not have all the tests done to my manager, and it was likely I would be given a warning (verbal I suppose). I was stuck in between a rock and a hard place, so I went ahead and they rang up the medical callout people. Where I work they operate a guilty until proven innocent policy.
On a side note, I have looked at my terms and conditions that I TUPED over with, and it says NOTHING about having a D&A test on return to work after a period of sickness. Also, in relation to a proper medical examination, it just states "If you are required to undergo a medical examination during your employment, the company will bear the cost, The information submitted on your Medical History form will be held on a personal file" This is really worrying me, as I don't trust this company to keep anything personal safe, and why would they want a medical history?
Some of you may be saying, "Get out if you don't like it!" but trust me, I am looking, but nothing out there on the same wage, and some companies aren't hiring. I also am lucky to have a job..I know.
Before the end of the week I am going to see my line manager about this. I actually don't know if he was a doctor or not. The bloke who did the breathalyser and urine sample worked for one of those call out type companies and it never occurred to me to ask if he was a proper medically trained doctor. Thats my fault.
The twist to this is, I refused to have the Drugs and Alcohol test in the first place as all I did was (badly) sprained my ankle at work, and because of their policy's I had to have one of these. Technically the test should have been done the day it happened. So from the hospital where I was given a lift to, I should have gone to the office for an immediate test. I was off for a month due to the accident. Anyway, I asked what the penalty would be if I did not have all the tests done to my manager, and it was likely I would be given a warning (verbal I suppose). I was stuck in between a rock and a hard place, so I went ahead and they rang up the medical callout people. Where I work they operate a guilty until proven innocent policy.
On a side note, I have looked at my terms and conditions that I TUPED over with, and it says NOTHING about having a D&A test on return to work after a period of sickness. Also, in relation to a proper medical examination, it just states "If you are required to undergo a medical examination during your employment, the company will bear the cost, The information submitted on your Medical History form will be held on a personal file" This is really worrying me, as I don't trust this company to keep anything personal safe, and why would they want a medical history?
Some of you may be saying, "Get out if you don't like it!" but trust me, I am looking, but nothing out there on the same wage, and some companies aren't hiring. I also am lucky to have a job..I know.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Land of Beer and Chocolate
Age: 56
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey monkeypuzzle
Ok, for my first bit, many companies want to keep medical records in their personnel files. One reason is that they can have their ass cleared if anything happens because of medication you didn't tell them about ("he jumped off the roof because of Seroxat, how were we meant to know he was a suicide risk because he never told us about that stuff? Not our fault, guv") and another is to make sure they comply with any regulations regarding any condition you may have. In other words, it's all ass covering and a reason I would always inform any company I worked with of any medication I was takng (the funniest one was when one company needed a letter to say I was "safe" using Tramadol, after taking it with their knowledge for a year, but they didn't care about the Valium)
The D+A test is a worrying one, I never had one of them in the UK before I guess it's a sign of the times.
Now, as far as personal info goes and your lack of trust in the company, remember one thing. One snippet of info gets out and you can have their guts under the Data Protection Act. Also, if that info is somehow damaging I bet you would win in a tribunal too due to things like embarrassment. They are obliged BY LAW to keep said info secret, so remind them of these obligations and the possible consequences.
Ok, for my first bit, many companies want to keep medical records in their personnel files. One reason is that they can have their ass cleared if anything happens because of medication you didn't tell them about ("he jumped off the roof because of Seroxat, how were we meant to know he was a suicide risk because he never told us about that stuff? Not our fault, guv") and another is to make sure they comply with any regulations regarding any condition you may have. In other words, it's all ass covering and a reason I would always inform any company I worked with of any medication I was takng (the funniest one was when one company needed a letter to say I was "safe" using Tramadol, after taking it with their knowledge for a year, but they didn't care about the Valium)
The D+A test is a worrying one, I never had one of them in the UK before I guess it's a sign of the times.
Now, as far as personal info goes and your lack of trust in the company, remember one thing. One snippet of info gets out and you can have their guts under the Data Protection Act. Also, if that info is somehow damaging I bet you would win in a tribunal too due to things like embarrassment. They are obliged BY LAW to keep said info secret, so remind them of these obligations and the possible consequences.
