Eyesight discrimination?
Gizajob
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That's good to hear! I had to wait 10 years to begin my commercial training because deviations didn't exist then - that is definitely disappointing I can tell you!
I wish you the best of luck anyway and hope you make it - it's well worth the effort.
I wish you the best of luck anyway and hope you make it - it's well worth the effort.
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I wish you the best of luck anyway and hope you make it - it's well worth the effort.
"Plan C" under way already, got a visit at SFC booked for Friday
so certainly not wasting time 
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does this deviation allow for people who are over the renewal limits? I have my ppl, night rating and have not yet got my class 2 due to work commitments, but my prescription is -8.5, do I stand any chance whatsoever of getting a class 1? 
On a different note, I was chatting to a few RAF pilots, and thier view is that it is actually safer flying commercially than PPL, as most of the time in the big jets you are in airways on IFR plans using instruments,so eyesight is not such a major factor, and you have the back-up of another pilot, where as PPL you are reliant entirely on yourself, and much more of the time flying VFR and using the "see and avoid" rule, so if eyesight was a problem, then it would be far more evident in a PPL enviorment? I thought that was a very good point.....
On a different note, I was chatting to a few RAF pilots, and thier view is that it is actually safer flying commercially than PPL, as most of the time in the big jets you are in airways on IFR plans using instruments,so eyesight is not such a major factor, and you have the back-up of another pilot, where as PPL you are reliant entirely on yourself, and much more of the time flying VFR and using the "see and avoid" rule, so if eyesight was a problem, then it would be far more evident in a PPL enviorment? I thought that was a very good point.....
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Cesco - my uncle got his first airline job, on a 320, at the age of 45, having commenced training at 40. Not worth worrying too much about the clock ticking (although I don't know how old you are!).
Had my first lesson today - absolutlely loved every second of it. Its going to take longer than our fellow trainees with the perfect eyes, but I for one am going to enjoy every minute of it.
Good luck!
Mark
Had my first lesson today - absolutlely loved every second of it. Its going to take longer than our fellow trainees with the perfect eyes, but I for one am going to enjoy every minute of it.
Good luck!
Mark
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Hi guys,
Mark
I am 30. I'm not particularly bothered about what kind of job (e.g. instructing, t/p, jet) I'd be able to get after training, I just think it's quite late to get into flying, not impossible, just late. Nevertheless I need to do this, as all I've been doing up to now is making as much money as I could to pay for training, investigating my chances (i.e. finding out about deviation) and keeping up-to-date with the state of commercial aviation.
Just like many others before me, I can't see myself being an office drone for the rest of my days...
Once I start training myself, I am 200% sure I'll enjoy it just as much!
Kengineer-130
I suspect you may not qualify for the deviation route either
perhaps if you phoned the CAA Aeromedical section and gave them a few details they could come up with something or at least tell you where you stand?
I've found them to be very helpful.
Mark
I am 30. I'm not particularly bothered about what kind of job (e.g. instructing, t/p, jet) I'd be able to get after training, I just think it's quite late to get into flying, not impossible, just late. Nevertheless I need to do this, as all I've been doing up to now is making as much money as I could to pay for training, investigating my chances (i.e. finding out about deviation) and keeping up-to-date with the state of commercial aviation.
Just like many others before me, I can't see myself being an office drone for the rest of my days...
[...] am going to enjoy every minute of it
Kengineer-130
I suspect you may not qualify for the deviation route either
perhaps if you phoned the CAA Aeromedical section and gave them a few details they could come up with something or at least tell you where you stand?
I've found them to be very helpful.
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[QUOTE=Kengineer-130]does this deviation allow for people who are over the renewal limits? I have my ppl, night rating and have not yet got my class 2 due to work commitments, but my prescription is -8.5, do I stand any chance whatsoever of getting a class 1?
QUOTE]
Don't mean to confuse things further, but I thought you needed to get your Class 2 before you flew solo for the first time? This is what I have been told by the instructor who took me up the other day, and always thought this was the case.
QUOTE]
Don't mean to confuse things further, but I thought you needed to get your Class 2 before you flew solo for the first time? This is what I have been told by the instructor who took me up the other day, and always thought this was the case.
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Kengineer -130.
The bad news is that you will not get a deviation on a Class 1. The deviation only applies to those outside the initial requirements but within the renewal requirements.
Being outside the renewal requirements gives the CAA no scope for any deviation. The deviation is a concession by the CAA, a pragmatic concession but the can only go so far in JAAland.
From the look of this, you are outside the limits for a class 2 certificate so a call to the CAA would be advisable before you do much else.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf
The bad news is that you will not get a deviation on a Class 1. The deviation only applies to those outside the initial requirements but within the renewal requirements.
Being outside the renewal requirements gives the CAA no scope for any deviation. The deviation is a concession by the CAA, a pragmatic concession but the can only go so far in JAAland.
From the look of this, you are outside the limits for a class 2 certificate so a call to the CAA would be advisable before you do much else.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/49/SRG_MED...isual_Stds.pdf
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The original question was is it discrimination to have these limits. The answer to that is an emphatic yes - it is discrimination based on prejudice as demonstrated by fhchiang. People (including many doctors) come up with these scenarios where they assume that someone with a high correction will be unable to cope. They don't bother to actually check the facts and find out if their scenario has any relationship with reality.
I have been flying for twenty years and 10,000 hours with a prescription outside the JAA renewal limits. In that time, I have once dropped a contact lens I was fiddling with but had the situation sorted before the other pilot even realised I was doing anything; I also once lost my glasses in the sudden deceleration of an accident, yet was strangely able to both evacuate the aircraft myself and assist others.
Furthermore, for my own peace of mind I arranged some years ago to do a flight (with no passengers and an instructor) without my glasses. As you would expect I found it near impossible to spot other aircraft, but I flew a visual circuit and landing with no difficulty whatsoever.
Of course, I hear the nay-sayers cry, one example is not proof. The proof is in the FAA statistics: there are nearly as many people flying on FAA licences who are outside the JAA limits as there are JAA pilots in total. Where then are all these accidents? Even the CAA are convinced of this, and have been arguing for some years to have the same system as the FAA, that there is no limit on the correction as long as you can pass all the tests. Unfortunately they are outvoted at JAA meetings, so the system remains as it is.
K-engineer 130, if you wish to fly, go down the FAA route. Whilst there are not nearly as many opportunities for work in Europe with an FAA licence as JAA, they do exist. And possibly by the time you've got enough experience to be looking at airline jobs the rules may have changed.
Good luck!
BJJ
I have been flying for twenty years and 10,000 hours with a prescription outside the JAA renewal limits. In that time, I have once dropped a contact lens I was fiddling with but had the situation sorted before the other pilot even realised I was doing anything; I also once lost my glasses in the sudden deceleration of an accident, yet was strangely able to both evacuate the aircraft myself and assist others.
Furthermore, for my own peace of mind I arranged some years ago to do a flight (with no passengers and an instructor) without my glasses. As you would expect I found it near impossible to spot other aircraft, but I flew a visual circuit and landing with no difficulty whatsoever.
Of course, I hear the nay-sayers cry, one example is not proof. The proof is in the FAA statistics: there are nearly as many people flying on FAA licences who are outside the JAA limits as there are JAA pilots in total. Where then are all these accidents? Even the CAA are convinced of this, and have been arguing for some years to have the same system as the FAA, that there is no limit on the correction as long as you can pass all the tests. Unfortunately they are outvoted at JAA meetings, so the system remains as it is.
K-engineer 130, if you wish to fly, go down the FAA route. Whilst there are not nearly as many opportunities for work in Europe with an FAA licence as JAA, they do exist. And possibly by the time you've got enough experience to be looking at airline jobs the rules may have changed.
Good luck!
BJJ
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What are the FAA limits? I did my PPL there and they would only grant me a student medical becasue I have a right eye dominance. I would consider FAA as I wouldn't mind working in the states, but it all seems a hell of a long way round to get a job 
, and I am beginning to wonder if its all really worth it, and just keep flying as a enjoyable hobby.
I did my PPL there and they would only grant me a student medical becasue I have a right eye dominance. I would consider FAA as I wouldn't mind working in the states, but it all seems a hell of a long way round to get a job , and I am beginning to wonder if its all really worth it, and just keep flying as a enjoyable hobby.
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FAA has no limits.
honestly guys.... i would agree if all authorities in the world take away the diopter limits...
because i myself wears spectacles... and i'm constantly worrying that i'll lose the medical someday
honestly guys.... i would agree if all authorities in the world take away the diopter limits...
because i myself wears spectacles... and i'm constantly worrying that i'll lose the medical someday
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Still waiting to know the CAA's decision on my case here...
First got in touch with them with documents on 7th of Feb... then sent some more docs, now hopefully they'll let me know whether or not I can go ahead with this Class 1 via deviation route...
sitting tight, waiting for their letter...
First got in touch with them with documents on 7th of Feb... then sent some more docs, now hopefully they'll let me know whether or not I can go ahead with this Class 1 via deviation route...
sitting tight, waiting for their letter...
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Cesco, in bocca al lupo, I hope you can receive good news.
Yes, not only for eyesight but also for color vision, the JAA is discrimitating.
Guys, think about FAA: Can you see (clearly) and distinguish (clearly) that object, light or whatelse? YES, you can go on. Can't you? I'm afraid...
And what about JAA? No... only (unfair) rules...
eh... how I love JAA (especially UK CAA's way...)!
Yes, not only for eyesight but also for color vision, the JAA is discrimitating.
Guys, think about FAA: Can you see (clearly) and distinguish (clearly) that object, light or whatelse? YES, you can go on. Can't you? I'm afraid...
And what about JAA? No... only (unfair) rules...
eh... how I love JAA (especially UK CAA's way...)!
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hey thanks aswind (i do hope to get good news, holdin my breath now..)
(crepi
)
There was a link to the 24-plate Ishihara test in one of the sticky posts, I reported that in the colour blindness thread. If you can see all those plates correctly, I assume there wouldnt be much of a problem with the 38-plate at the CAA, though I may well stand to be corrected on this one. I will soon find out anyway I guess (after this "belated" letter gets into my mailbox and I get to know if I can go ahead with this deviated Class 1 business...).
Unfortunately being JAA rules and not FAA does mean we have to be within some sort of (edit: more restrictive) standard. I strongly agree with Cosmo and find his opinion much along my line of thought. I am sure the CAA is at the forefront of making eyesight requirements somewhat more "permissive" in the future. Things will certainly change with EASA, to what extent I am not too sure, but time will tell. In the meantime, let us hope we are not going to be held from achieving a lifelong ambition on "medical grounds". Good luck to us all.
(crepi
)There was a link to the 24-plate Ishihara test in one of the sticky posts, I reported that in the colour blindness thread. If you can see all those plates correctly, I assume there wouldnt be much of a problem with the 38-plate at the CAA, though I may well stand to be corrected on this one. I will soon find out anyway I guess (after this "belated" letter gets into my mailbox and I get to know if I can go ahead with this deviated Class 1 business...).
Unfortunately being JAA rules and not FAA does mean we have to be within some sort of (edit: more restrictive) standard. I strongly agree with Cosmo and find his opinion much along my line of thought. I am sure the CAA is at the forefront of making eyesight requirements somewhat more "permissive" in the future. Things will certainly change with EASA, to what extent I am not too sure, but time will tell. In the meantime, let us hope we are not going to be held from achieving a lifelong ambition on "medical grounds". Good luck to us all.
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well, I have already done the class one...
I have a restricted class one (CP4 - colour unsafe) because I've failed the Ishihare test (4 mistakes), the 2 lantern tests (4 mistakes) and also I've failed the Nagel Anomaloscope (my matching range is 5... when the maximun acceptable for the JAA is 4. NB that the matching range scale goes from 0 to 90ish... so you can easily understand how the JAA limit is harsh)
You're right... the only thing I can do is hoping for news rules from JAA/EASA.
I've been told many times that they will change a lot of things... and also that they will harmonise some rules with the FAA... but WHEN, HOW and WHAT?!?
A.
I have a restricted class one (CP4 - colour unsafe) because I've failed the Ishihare test (4 mistakes), the 2 lantern tests (4 mistakes) and also I've failed the Nagel Anomaloscope (my matching range is 5... when the maximun acceptable for the JAA is 4. NB that the matching range scale goes from 0 to 90ish... so you can easily understand how the JAA limit is harsh)
You're right... the only thing I can do is hoping for news rules from JAA/EASA.
I've been told many times that they will change a lot of things... and also that they will harmonise some rules with the FAA... but WHEN, HOW and WHAT?!?
A.
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Originally Posted by aswind
well, I have already done the class one...
I have a restricted class one (CP4 - colour unsafe) because I've failed the Ishihare test (4 mistakes)
I have a restricted class one (CP4 - colour unsafe) because I've failed the Ishihare test (4 mistakes)
Are you supposed to get ALL plates right then, or is the error margin limited to what... one or two plates..Is that restriction on your Class 1 going to prevent you from achieving a .. "normal" CPL/IR? It would be good to know if you can somehow appeal for a further assessment or something.
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no, well 4 mistakes out of 15 (only the first 15 plates)...
Yes, with this CP4 class one i can only be flight instructor. (restricted class one means NO PUBLIC TRANSPORT, NO NIGHT FLIGHTS and NO IFR)
check the Collective Color Blindness Thread for info about colour vision.
how many weeks, months, years we have to wait for new (and fairer) rules?
I know there are many JAA meetings throughout the years.... but when?!?!?
Yes, with this CP4 class one i can only be flight instructor. (restricted class one means NO PUBLIC TRANSPORT, NO NIGHT FLIGHTS and NO IFR)
check the Collective Color Blindness Thread for info about colour vision.
how many weeks, months, years we have to wait for new (and fairer) rules?
I know there are many JAA meetings throughout the years.... but when?!?!?
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no, well 4 mistakes out of 15 (only the first 15 plates)...
Yes, with this CP4 class one i can only be flight instructor. (restricted class one means NO PUBLIC TRANSPORT, NO NIGHT FLIGHTS and NO IFR)
check the Collective Color Blindness Thread for info about colour vision.
Yes, with this CP4 class one i can only be flight instructor. (restricted class one means NO PUBLIC TRANSPORT, NO NIGHT FLIGHTS and NO IFR)
check the Collective Color Blindness Thread for info about colour vision.
(before mods cut our posts n paste into the CB thread)Back to topic now...
how many weeks, months, years we have to wait for new (and fairer) rules?
I know there are many JAA meetings throughout the years.... but when?!?!?
I know there are many JAA meetings throughout the years.... but when?!?!?
in my case, any NPA amendments will not make such a huge difference. I will still be outside the initial limits, I will still have to go through the deviation process. In your case.. well I wouldn't know how to tackle that one. I'd just go and do my VFR training, perhaps get a VFR Instructor's license (if there is one as such) and still work in aviation as an instructor. You're young, rules may well change big time in 5 years or less, you'll still be what.. 25, plenty of time to get a CPL/IR+MCC done. Patience seems to be a virtue we need to be well equipped with if we want to get that lucky break in this industry