jaa medical, does it test for marjuana?
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They should all be legal, really (though this isn't practical for many reasons at the mo') - thus taking a huge economy away from criminals. If people want to **** themselves that should be up to them - legal status isn't going to make much difference. In fact it's the duality of some being legal and some illegal that makes the legal ones seem ok (as so well illustrated by BlueskyRich's overt hypocrisy) and so you see our hospital wards full of such casualties.
Smoking in a public place though... that's another matter altogether!
Smoking in a public place though... that's another matter altogether!
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It's not hypocrisy at all.
Alcohol is a legal stimulant, of which the side effects and consequences are very, very well known.
The same can be said for that other legal stimulant, nicotine.
Weed, dope etc is another matter. Whilst extensive research has been carried out, the side effects and consequences are not yet fully understood. It is an illegal substance for good reason and whilst that may or may not change in the future, in the here and now, it's an illegal substance.
For me, there are two issues - the first is that stimulants (of any flavour) have no place on the flightdeck. That's why there are limitations on alcohol consumption before duty.
The second is the attitude towards drug taking. OK, let's play devil's advocate. You say, hell, it's OK - the odd joint hurt wont hurt (despite the great unknown consequences). You're then raising the barrier. Somebody sniffs the odd line of powder. Do you draw the line there?
Alcohol is a legal stimulant, of which the side effects and consequences are very, very well known.
The same can be said for that other legal stimulant, nicotine.
Weed, dope etc is another matter. Whilst extensive research has been carried out, the side effects and consequences are not yet fully understood. It is an illegal substance for good reason and whilst that may or may not change in the future, in the here and now, it's an illegal substance.
For me, there are two issues - the first is that stimulants (of any flavour) have no place on the flightdeck. That's why there are limitations on alcohol consumption before duty.
The second is the attitude towards drug taking. OK, let's play devil's advocate. You say, hell, it's OK - the odd joint hurt wont hurt (despite the great unknown consequences). You're then raising the barrier. Somebody sniffs the odd line of powder. Do you draw the line there?
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Everyones always going to have diffrent and varying opinions about this subject but I believe this country would be a worse place than it already is if all drugs where legal. People can choose to take drugs if they want, its their life. The law is in place to help prevent drug lords, gangs and suppliers profiting from drugs mainly by criminal activity. Its mainly suppliers that are prosecuted and the lone self abuser sent to rehab at the tax payers expense.
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Anyone stupid enough to indulge in illegal drug taking should NEVER be allowed anywhere near the controls of ANY aeroplane.
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I'm not going to get into a debate here - partly because this isnt the place for it and partly because it's going to be an uphill struggle explaining things such as the fact that alcohol is not a stimulant, but a depressant. And also that known stimulants are regularly served on the flightdeck without creating any decline in performance... some would report an improvement in these times of fatigue and increased sector days.(re: "stimulants (of any flavour) have no place on the flightdeck"). And best not get me started on the economic and political reasons for the criminalisation of "mind altering substances" over the last century!
As for drawing line.. well that's up to individual's ability to make sure nothing he does adversely effects his ability to do the job. Personally I'd err on the side of abstinence - also i'm quite happy without these things. I certainly don't see how the occasional line of cocaine or even ingestion of heroin is any worse than the occasional night out on the booze.
Also with regard do the drawing the line theory.. would that not mean that you'd "draw the line" before alcohol, coffee, paracetamol etc? You've already admitted that you like to drink alcohol.
But as Wbryce says it's an emotive topic and opinions are bound to conflict. Whilst i respect all opinions it's important that they're backed up with knowledge and experience rather than, for example, what you read in the paper.
Aargh.. really didn't want to derail the thread, damn will-power... final post!
As for drawing line.. well that's up to individual's ability to make sure nothing he does adversely effects his ability to do the job. Personally I'd err on the side of abstinence - also i'm quite happy without these things. I certainly don't see how the occasional line of cocaine or even ingestion of heroin is any worse than the occasional night out on the booze.
Also with regard do the drawing the line theory.. would that not mean that you'd "draw the line" before alcohol, coffee, paracetamol etc? You've already admitted that you like to drink alcohol.
But as Wbryce says it's an emotive topic and opinions are bound to conflict. Whilst i respect all opinions it's important that they're backed up with knowledge and experience rather than, for example, what you read in the paper.
Aargh.. really didn't want to derail the thread, damn will-power... final post!
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Wint3mute,
You're very right - it's an extremely emotive subject and hugely difficult to get a common consensus on.
As I said before, I've seen first hand the destructive consequences that substance misuse can have (and I do include alcohol in that too), and must agree that any point must be backed up with fact and experience, not some throw-away line printed in The Sun or Daily Mail.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree over that one!
As for getting the thread back on track and subject, I must say that it's unlikely the person in question will have a problem with their medical this time around.
Just don't ask the AME for a light....
You're very right - it's an extremely emotive subject and hugely difficult to get a common consensus on.
As I said before, I've seen first hand the destructive consequences that substance misuse can have (and I do include alcohol in that too), and must agree that any point must be backed up with fact and experience, not some throw-away line printed in The Sun or Daily Mail.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree over that one!
As for getting the thread back on track and subject, I must say that it's unlikely the person in question will have a problem with their medical this time around.
Just don't ask the AME for a light....
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Quite right BlueskyRich.. over and out on that subject!
AME's certainly won't test for drugs, not least because it would add £250 to the cost of the medical and also because there would be an outcry if tests were admininstered seeing as we're supposed to be professionals who should be trusted to do the right thing.
AME's certainly won't test for drugs, not least because it would add £250 to the cost of the medical and also because there would be an outcry if tests were admininstered seeing as we're supposed to be professionals who should be trusted to do the right thing.
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Not withstanding the attendant moral issue of "why is grass worse than booze?" the bottom line is one of the law.
You are permitted to work with a very small amount of alcohol in your bloodstream and alcohol is a legal drug.
You are permitted to smoke yourself to death with legal cigarettes, even though they have a very unpleasant effect upon your body's ability to extract and transport oxygen.
You are not allowed to have ANY marijuana in your bloodstream because it is an illegal drug.
Now, fair or not that is the law full stop. Those people who think that it's wrong that tobaco is legal and marijuana not may have a point - however, the answer is that if both these drugs were discovered for the first time this week it would probably be the case that neither would be made legal, not that marijuana would be likely to join tobaco on the "acceptable list"!
Drinking excess alcohol is legal - it may not be smart, but it's legal - unless you want to drive, fly, perform neurosurgery etc. You will find plenty of rules regarding alcohol use in SOPs and other aviation related documents. These tell you how much you can have and when to stop. If you can find similar advice in an SOP - telling you how much marijuana you can smoke and how long before flight you must stop - I would be interested to see it.
Remember, marijuana lingers in the system a lot longer than alcohol and an increasing weight of medical evidence suggests long term psychological harm can result from the use of even small amounts.
Think also of this - beer, wine and spirits are carefully assessed and graded so that you know exactly how much alcohol is in there. Therefore, with a little common sense, you can work out how much you've had and when to stop. I have yet to find a governing body for marijuana production which assesses and grades it for strength.
The bottom line is that it's not "do gooders" trying to stop people having fun, or recreational dope smokers enjoying something that they believe should be legal. The bottom line is that it's about the law, about safety and about keeping your sanity, your licence and your job.
You are permitted to work with a very small amount of alcohol in your bloodstream and alcohol is a legal drug.
You are permitted to smoke yourself to death with legal cigarettes, even though they have a very unpleasant effect upon your body's ability to extract and transport oxygen.
You are not allowed to have ANY marijuana in your bloodstream because it is an illegal drug.
Now, fair or not that is the law full stop. Those people who think that it's wrong that tobaco is legal and marijuana not may have a point - however, the answer is that if both these drugs were discovered for the first time this week it would probably be the case that neither would be made legal, not that marijuana would be likely to join tobaco on the "acceptable list"!
Drinking excess alcohol is legal - it may not be smart, but it's legal - unless you want to drive, fly, perform neurosurgery etc. You will find plenty of rules regarding alcohol use in SOPs and other aviation related documents. These tell you how much you can have and when to stop. If you can find similar advice in an SOP - telling you how much marijuana you can smoke and how long before flight you must stop - I would be interested to see it.
Remember, marijuana lingers in the system a lot longer than alcohol and an increasing weight of medical evidence suggests long term psychological harm can result from the use of even small amounts.
Think also of this - beer, wine and spirits are carefully assessed and graded so that you know exactly how much alcohol is in there. Therefore, with a little common sense, you can work out how much you've had and when to stop. I have yet to find a governing body for marijuana production which assesses and grades it for strength.
The bottom line is that it's not "do gooders" trying to stop people having fun, or recreational dope smokers enjoying something that they believe should be legal. The bottom line is that it's about the law, about safety and about keeping your sanity, your licence and your job.
)
Join Date: Sep 2005
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Hi
In medical French JAA, it is verified by analysing the urines.
I only tell you but the medical JAA tests aren't the same even if is medical JAA of one state is recognized by the others states without new exam.
For example for vision (visual), the french class 1 (you have a class1 if you ahave less than XXX dioptres) is harder than UK class
Hope this helps
Bye
In medical French JAA, it is verified by analysing the urines.
I only tell you but the medical JAA tests aren't the same even if is medical JAA of one state is recognized by the others states without new exam.
For example for vision (visual), the french class 1 (you have a class1 if you ahave less than XXX dioptres) is harder than UK class
Hope this helps
Bye
Join Date: Dec 2004
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shocking.
I pray myself or my family are never on a a/c with you regardless of how much u take. as for stopping your fun, you will be paid to be a professional, make the ppl in back feel safe, and i can assure you i would be the first to stand up and get of a a/c if i thought i was flying with u.
go work in IT or something. dick.
I pray myself or my family are never on a a/c with you regardless of how much u take. as for stopping your fun, you will be paid to be a professional, make the ppl in back feel safe, and i can assure you i would be the first to stand up and get of a a/c if i thought i was flying with u.
go work in IT or something. dick.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Substance abuse in the USA
" On your medical, here in the States they do ask, about it, if you get caught and don't inform the FAA, you Certificate goes away. Same for heavy drinking, they days of drinking breakfast, then go fly all day are gone "
The key here is going flying and abusing a substance at the same time. If you do have a substance abuse problem in the US, you can still obtain a medical from the AMCD provided you have cleaned up.
AL
The key here is going flying and abusing a substance at the same time. If you do have a substance abuse problem in the US, you can still obtain a medical from the AMCD provided you have cleaned up.
AL
Join Date: Mar 2004
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We're trying to introduce a similar approach in the UK (following the US example, in fact) whereby relatives and colleagues etc are encouraged to put individuals forward who may be developing a problem without fear of them losing their job or licence. A more open approach should save lives and careers, training costs etc and of course those who do come through rehabilitated are much better for it. May be a while till such a culture is established judging by some of the ignorati in this thread!
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BLACKPOOL TOILETS
HEY BRO.....COOL MAN....YOU SHOULD FLY A....HELI MAN GET TANGLED ON THOSE TREES.......I BET YOU WILL SMOKE IT WITH YOUR HELI.....SUNNY,DOPE STAYS IN YOUR BLOOD STRAEM MORE THAN ANY HARD DRUGS....IF YOU ARE SNORTING IT WASHES OFF INA MONTH EXCEPT...YOU DONT SMELL YOUR ENGINE BURNING....SOME COMPANY TAKE ASAMPLES OF THE HAIR...THEN YOU HAD IT...LICENCE AND ALL....NOW YOU WHY FRDIE AND MUTU SHAVED THEIR HEADS.....BEFORE THEIR TESTS.....SMOKE SOME CIGAR AND BE A REAL HAVANA ROMEO.....EASY...DO THE RIGHT THING....LUX
AND BY THE WAY LABOUR PARTY CONFRENCE TOILETS FOUND FULL OF TRACES OF HARD DRUGS....DONT TELL ME YOU WORK FOR THEM EVICTING 70 YEAR OLD....THEY ALSO LEAGALISED CANNABIS...TO GRADE TWO......KICK IT...OR ...ELSE
AND BY THE WAY LABOUR PARTY CONFRENCE TOILETS FOUND FULL OF TRACES OF HARD DRUGS....DONT TELL ME YOU WORK FOR THEM EVICTING 70 YEAR OLD....THEY ALSO LEAGALISED CANNABIS...TO GRADE TWO......KICK IT...OR ...ELSE
The Cooler King
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I had a little chat with my friend Foamy the Squirrel the other day and this is what he had to say about drugs.....
http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1706.htm
http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-1706.htm
particularly those drawing parallels with alcohol
why is grass worse than booze?"
L'enfant Terrible
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Echoing previous posts, the THC found in cannabis is present in fatty cells for a considerable time after consumption. From an RAF point of view, they're now coming round to testing using hair samples. Meaning basically you're screwed, to be blunt (pun intended).
As for your opinion regarding BEagle lightening up Paddy. Might I suggest you ask around a few people on these forums regarding his biography. Might make for interesting reading compared to your 'wealth of experience.' Tw@t
As for your opinion regarding BEagle lightening up Paddy. Might I suggest you ask around a few people on these forums regarding his biography. Might make for interesting reading compared to your 'wealth of experience.' Tw@t
