What happens if I die at 30,000 feet??
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I can assure you that a paramedic will not pronounce death (unless they want to be an unemployed paramedic). If they were blue and stiff they might make a few obvious remarks and then call for a Dr.
Only a qualified Dr can pronounce somebody dead.
Only a qualified Dr can pronounce somebody dead.
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We had an elderly gentleman collapse in the mid galley about an hour away from the US east coast ( transatlantic flight), attended to by the cabin crew who administered CPR, call put out for a medic and a cardio surgeon on board joined in the efforts, despite best efforts with defib etc crew were unable to revive him.
We were on the ground in Boston ASAP,with all involved continuing CPR for as long as sensibly possible. Met by medical crew at BOS arranged by medlink who took over precedings-deceased off loaded with family.
Understandably our crew were in no fit state to continue, so night stoppped in BOS. CC positioned home next day.
We were on the ground in Boston ASAP,with all involved continuing CPR for as long as sensibly possible. Met by medical crew at BOS arranged by medlink who took over precedings-deceased off loaded with family.
Understandably our crew were in no fit state to continue, so night stoppped in BOS. CC positioned home next day.
Last edited by spoilers yellow; 25th Mar 2005 at 16:00.
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gareth08
Thats not strictly true, at least in the UK.
As a paramedic I can 'reconise and confirm' death and either terminate or not start resuscitation subject to certain guidelines.
PW
Thats not strictly true, at least in the UK.
As a paramedic I can 'reconise and confirm' death and either terminate or not start resuscitation subject to certain guidelines.
PW
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Yes, but as far as pronouncing death with regards to a death certificate, only a registered Dr can do that.
When i was in the service i was always under the impression that ressucitation was only stopped under the guidance of a more qulaified medical person. (However in saying that we were never further than 10 mins from a hospital, so stopping wasn't really an option - you just didn't start if they were quite obviously beyond help i.e. no CPR or attempts of ressucitation within 3 mins)
Wouldn't be up to date with current regs and guidelines, so i'll take your word for it
Cheers.
When i was in the service i was always under the impression that ressucitation was only stopped under the guidance of a more qulaified medical person. (However in saying that we were never further than 10 mins from a hospital, so stopping wasn't really an option - you just didn't start if they were quite obviously beyond help i.e. no CPR or attempts of ressucitation within 3 mins)
Wouldn't be up to date with current regs and guidelines, so i'll take your word for it
Cheers.
I always was under the impression that only a qualified medical practitioner can issue a death certificate.
As for telling whether a person is dead or not...well, it may be possible to make a reasonably informed guess. Many years ago a motorcycle policeman radioed back to his base something along the following lines:-
MCP: "Tango Four to Base"
Base: "Go ahead Tango Four"
MCP: "On-scene at a motorcycle accident, 1 deceased."
Base: "Are you medically-qualified, Tango Four?"
MCP: "Negative, Base."
Base: "Well then, you are not able to say the person is deceased then, are you?"
MCP: "Well no, Base, not technically...but the head is thirty feet away from the rest of the body!"
Base (after a short pause) "Roger, Tango Four."
It gets worse. They thought they were dealing with one fatality. It was a few days before the crows showed them where the body of the pillion passenger had been thrown, into a ditch full of bullrushes.
As for telling whether a person is dead or not...well, it may be possible to make a reasonably informed guess. Many years ago a motorcycle policeman radioed back to his base something along the following lines:-
MCP: "Tango Four to Base"
Base: "Go ahead Tango Four"
MCP: "On-scene at a motorcycle accident, 1 deceased."
Base: "Are you medically-qualified, Tango Four?"
MCP: "Negative, Base."
Base: "Well then, you are not able to say the person is deceased then, are you?"
MCP: "Well no, Base, not technically...but the head is thirty feet away from the rest of the body!"
Base (after a short pause) "Roger, Tango Four."
It gets worse. They thought they were dealing with one fatality. It was a few days before the crows showed them where the body of the pillion passenger had been thrown, into a ditch full of bullrushes.
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OK to clear it up from a paramedic view.
Under the Joint Royal Colleges Ambulance Liasion Committe guidelines a (state registered) paramedic may subject to locally agreed protocols diagnose death; A procedure known as Reconition of Life Extinct or ROLE.
This allow the paramedic (and suitably qualified ambulance technicians in some services) to determine that a patient need not have resusucitation efforts started and may be terminated.
They can not sign death certificates, as stated above.
Local arrangements are/should be in force for the procedures to be followed after death has been reconised - the notification to the police/coroner/patient's GP etc.
Anyone who wants to read the guidelines pm and I send you the pdf file of the guidelines.
PW
State Registered Paramedic.
Edited to add: UK only!
Under the Joint Royal Colleges Ambulance Liasion Committe guidelines a (state registered) paramedic may subject to locally agreed protocols diagnose death; A procedure known as Reconition of Life Extinct or ROLE.
This allow the paramedic (and suitably qualified ambulance technicians in some services) to determine that a patient need not have resusucitation efforts started and may be terminated.
They can not sign death certificates, as stated above.
Local arrangements are/should be in force for the procedures to be followed after death has been reconised - the notification to the police/coroner/patient's GP etc.
Anyone who wants to read the guidelines pm and I send you the pdf file of the guidelines.
PW
State Registered Paramedic.
Edited to add: UK only!
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Good to hear they are giving EMT's and Parmadeics a few more privellages.
As i said when i was on the job only clues were fixed dilated pupils, asystole on the ECG and no previous attempts of ressucitation since the call was put out, signs of rigor mortis and of course if the body is decapitated..............well - thats usually a pretty good sign!!
Anyhow, i think that's pretty much cleared up the subject!! Who could have thought you could learn so much about the legalities of emergency medicine on an aviation website LOL
As i said when i was on the job only clues were fixed dilated pupils, asystole on the ECG and no previous attempts of ressucitation since the call was put out, signs of rigor mortis and of course if the body is decapitated..............well - thats usually a pretty good sign!!
Anyhow, i think that's pretty much cleared up the subject!! Who could have thought you could learn so much about the legalities of emergency medicine on an aviation website LOL
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I expect you've all heard the true(?) one about the BA Flt Engineer who was helping to carry a deceased person to the rear of the aircraft to be stored behind the back row.
In passing, to an onlooking passenger, he said:
"Wouldn't have the fish if I were you..."
Story goes, they fired him.
In passing, to an onlooking passenger, he said:
"Wouldn't have the fish if I were you..."
Story goes, they fired him.
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I fly Air Ambulance flights, so that is kind of a recurring problem....
The pax can be pronounced by a medical examiner that has jurisdiction over the port of entry, IE the doc on board will not sign a death certificate, altough the very quite pax will be in a body bag.
Has far as the rest of the flight is concern, we should be landing at the first port of Entry suitably equipped if crossing a country boundary, or we can continue on to destination if within the same country ( in the US).
As mentioned before, not the freshest of smells, specially couse the LJ have the outflow valve in the front firewall, buy the Copilot`s feet, reason good enough for a prompt upgarde!
The pax can be pronounced by a medical examiner that has jurisdiction over the port of entry, IE the doc on board will not sign a death certificate, altough the very quite pax will be in a body bag.
Has far as the rest of the flight is concern, we should be landing at the first port of Entry suitably equipped if crossing a country boundary, or we can continue on to destination if within the same country ( in the US).
As mentioned before, not the freshest of smells, specially couse the LJ have the outflow valve in the front firewall, buy the Copilot`s feet, reason good enough for a prompt upgarde!
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from a crew point of view we gotta carry out CPR for 30 mins regardless of "how dead" so to speak, the the person is.
As crew we cannot stop CPR until this 30 mins is up unless a qualified doctor of medicine, through medlink, gives us the stop word.
afterwords the pax is placed in a seat, beside any travelling relatives if the flight is full, plastic ocvering of sorts placed on the seat to try protect it from the fluids that will soon emerge, blanket placed over the top of them and the pax placed into a sleeping like position.
when jumping round with a defib, oxygen, the sound of braking ribs and relatives screaming there aint much else you can do to keep it discrete from everyone else. guess thats when we earn our money down the back.
kempus
As crew we cannot stop CPR until this 30 mins is up unless a qualified doctor of medicine, through medlink, gives us the stop word.
afterwords the pax is placed in a seat, beside any travelling relatives if the flight is full, plastic ocvering of sorts placed on the seat to try protect it from the fluids that will soon emerge, blanket placed over the top of them and the pax placed into a sleeping like position.
when jumping round with a defib, oxygen, the sound of braking ribs and relatives screaming there aint much else you can do to keep it discrete from everyone else. guess thats when we earn our money down the back.
kempus
