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ORAC 26th May 2020 07:16

US Politics Hamsterwheel V3.0
 
The Economist:

Covid-19 is hitting Democratic states harder than Republican ones

How the pandemic is deepening America’s political divide

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0ba6797352.png

obgraham 26th May 2020 07:31

So let me ask this in reverse, FlyMD: Do you think it acceptable to tell a person providing a modest living for his/her young family by working for someone, or running his own small business, that he must close the business and have ZERO income, for a period of time that is indeterminate, because of the small percentage of people that have become ill and even died? Especially when we understand who makes up the at-risk group for serious covid-19 illness, and how that risk for the person I mention is in fact negligible.
If so, what will you advise he do to look after his family? And when will you tell him it will end?

It's all well and good for those of us who have retained a well-paid job or who have a comfortable retirement plan, to preach austerity to a farmer, a tire repairman, or a theatre manager. To use your words:

if you think that it's unimportant,... you're certainly entitled to that opinion.
If we wait till this virus has departed, we will be waiting a very long time indeed.

Ancient Mariner 26th May 2020 09:44


Originally Posted by obgraham (Post 10793530)
So let me ask this in reverse, FlyMD: Do you think it acceptable to tell a person providing a modest living for his/her young family by working for someone, or running his own small business, that he must close the business and have ZERO income, for a period of time that is indeterminate, because of the small percentage of people that have become ill and even died? Especially when we understand who makes up the at-risk group for serious covid-19 illness, and how that risk for the person I mention is in fact negligible.
If so, what will you advise he do to look after his family? And when will you tell him it will end?

It's all well and good for those of us who have retained a well-paid job or who have a comfortable retirement plan, to preach austerity to a farmer, a tire repairman, or a theatre manager. To use your words:


If we wait till this virus has departed, we will be waiting a very long time indeed.

It's mostly all well and good in countries that look after it's citizens.
Per

Crabman 26th May 2020 10:35


Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie (Post 10793373)
Watched Donny's golf swing on the news last night. No wonder he has to cheat.

To steal a line from Lee Trevino, his swing "looks like a caveman killing his lunch."

But, I understand that many of Trumpy's best "shots" are performed with his foot.

FlyMD 26th May 2020 10:39

obgraham, I don't have the answers pertaining to your country, obviously. In mine, the executive is appointed by the legislative branch, or elected directly at the state and community level: in times of crisis you hope you made the right choice at the ballot box, and trust your government to make the right choices. After the crisis, you sanction their performance at the ballot box. And yes, you temporarily give up some of your rights and liberties as guaranteed by your constitution, just as you do for a short while every time a cop tells you to do something you don't necessarily agree with, except this time, with COVID, we give up a part of those liberties for a much longer time, enough for a good part of the population to get pissed off, and start believing some of the crap they read on the internet, and formulate their own, "smarter" policy to solve the pandemic.
Again, no idea how you want to set priorities in the US... In Switzerland, the government has presented an exit strategy from this mess, and keeps adapting it as facts and figures come in. It's not perfect, and a lot of people are out of a job, out of money, and mightily pissed off. I fully expect to greet next year with a tripled unemployment countrywide, no money left in the public coffers and a raging recession. The bill for all this will be carried by the middle class, as usual, that's what the middle class is for: I'll get to bitch and do something about it at the next election.
You guys obviously have a somewhat different way of doing things, and make interesting choices as to whom you like to elect to power and trust in difficult times...

Toadstool 26th May 2020 10:55

Can someone please remind POTUS that going after veterans on Memorial Day is just a wee bit crass.

Lonewolf_50 26th May 2020 13:11


Originally Posted by Toadstool (Post 10793746)
Can someone please remind POTUS that going after veterans on Memorial Day is just a wee bit crass.

I doubt the reminder would register. Not big on listening, that one.

Boudreaux Bob 26th May 2020 13:13

Murder and Mayhem in Chicago each weekend and Trump's golf swing is important?

Seems you have some confused priorities.

Obama played Golf seven of eight Memorial Day's yet you criticize Trump.




Toadstool 26th May 2020 14:18


Originally Posted by Boudreaux Bob (Post 10793869)

Obama played Golf seven of eight Memorial Day's yet you criticize Trump.

"I don't have time for that. I love golf. I think it's one of the greats. but I don't have time. Two-hundred-fifty rounds -- that's more than a guy who plays on the PGA Tour plays. He played more golf last year than Tiger Woods," Trump said at a December 2015 campaign rally. "No, think of it. We don't have time for this. We don't have time for this. We have to work. We have to work, OK?"

Apart from lying to y’all, today he criticised Joe Biden for his actions as VP during the H1N1 epidemic. Funny how you can criticise someone for their performance while absolving yourself completely.

Trump borrows slogans. Perhaps he also uses “ The buck stops there”.


Turbine D 26th May 2020 14:25


Originally Posted by Boudreaux Bob (Post 10793374)
US CDC confirmed the Virus Death Rate is 0.03%......but then the Media is not going to tell you that are they?

Even if they did....it would not change your mind I bet.

You can look at it two ways, the percentage way, or the human way. 100,000 deaths, more to come. Think about that. The percentage game is a cute game to play isn't it?

Turbine D 26th May 2020 14:49


Originally Posted by obgraham (Post 10793389)
Doesn't matter, Boudreax. To them, if you put 38 million out of work, and save one old geezer life, that's a good deal. Especially if you can persuade them by November that it was all Trump's fault.

That it was Trump's fault is a pretty easy claim to make. If Trump controlled the American free press, we would be in lock-step with the Brazil pandemic do nothing model. Their Pres. up until now has denied that COVID-19 is anything more than a mild flu that would magically go away, like Trump in the beginning 5 weeks of denial to protect his reelection possibilities. Trump said "It's all a hoax." Rather surprised to see your position in writing considering your vocation... :ugh:

TD

obgraham 26th May 2020 15:53

My "position", my dear Turbine, is a simple one:

Protect the vulnerable.
Send the less vulnerable back to work.

Turbine D 26th May 2020 16:27


Originally Posted by obgraham (Post 10793990)
My "position", my dear Turbine, is a simple one:

Protect the vulnerable.
Send the less vulnerable back to work.

Dear obgraham,
Too bad you didn't clearly write that in your first attempt. Instead you wrote:

To them, if you put 38 million out of work, and save one old geezer life, that's a good deal.
Most times simplicity in stating what you really mean works best...

obgraham 26th May 2020 16:48

It's all about context, Turbine, not cherry picking. (That season will start here in about three weeks, if the governor will allow it.)
One comment was a succinct statement of my view.
The other was my perceived view of the Trumphophobe party.

Why did you decide to conflate the two?

obgraham 26th May 2020 17:04

To return to FlyMD, who claimed that we in the US's primary interest is to:

safeguard my net worth or the stock market
In my short but interesting visits to Switzerland, it is very clear to me that the Swiss have a much different concept of the role of government in their lives, than, say, Americans. So be it. You seem to be content with it, and as it has worked for you for several centuries, I would not be critical.
We could, of course, start a thread called "Swiss Politics Hamsterwheel". Wherein I might chime in from here to mention some of the less savory aspects of Swiss culture and history.

I find it presumptuous to be accused of not caring about lives lost, while condemning a huge portion of the population to poverty and its accompanying ill health and even death.

I've stated it before: We can either choose living with a virus and permanent economic collapse, or living with a virus and allowing economic recovery. In this, Switzerland and the USA are the same.

FlyMD 26th May 2020 19:59

Feel free, obgraham, to start a "Swiss politics hamsterwheel"... I'm sure you have already decided which excerpts of Wikipedia you would copy/paste in there to highlight the "less savory" parts of our history.... *yawn*

My observations on this particular hamsterwheel all stem from either the observations I make actually living and working in the US, or from the sometimes deliciously idiotic utterings made by the right wingnut fringe that is over-represented on the thread.

Orange future 26th May 2020 20:43


In my short but interesting visits to Switzerland, it is very clear to me that the Swiss have a much different concept of the role of government in their lives, than, say, Americans.


I think you will find most other developed nations have a different concept of the role of government.

The complete paranoia and need to be heavily armed to defend against a tyrannical government is as American as it is absurd.


We can either choose living with a virus and permanent economic collapse, or living with a virus and allowing economic recovery. In this, Switzerland and the USA are the same.


Neither of these two options accurately depict the most likely outcome but bravo for keeping it simple.

This economic downturn, a very nasty downturn, perhaps the biggest recession for a lifetime was brewing anyway and corona is simply the pin that pricked the bubble. Make no mistake, by years end we would still have been crying into our soup over our economic woes had corona not emerged.

It is fanciful to assume that the economy was going to continue ticking on its merry path of perpetual growth considering how much of our lifestyle is funded by debt.

Winemaker 26th May 2020 21:43

Thank you, Dear Leader, for another brilliant quote; you never disappoint:

“I don’t use insulin. Should I be? Huh?” Trump said. “I never thought about it. But I know a lot of people are very badly affected, right? Unbelievable.”
And yes, obgraham, there will be cherries; agricultural workers are exempt.

Turbine D 26th May 2020 22:05


Originally Posted by obgraham (Post 10793389)
Doesn't matter, Boudreax. To them, if you put 38 million out of work, and save one old geezer life, that's a good deal. Especially if you can persuade them by November that it was all Trump's fault.

Obgraham,
Apparently, you are not enough of a United States citizen to know the difference between the American usage of the word 'geezer' and the UK usage. I am not interested in your usage of words like succinct, Trumphophobe and other prima donna words you like to use. At 80, I am firmly the part of the category you identify as "Old Geezers." You seem very willing to brush off their sacrifice compared to your honored commitment as a medical physician. Almost 80% of the pandemic 100,000 deaths in the United States are in the elderly or geezer category as you like to put it. To your usage I say you are an :mad: :mad:!

Just so you understand your derogatory remark: gee·zer| ˈɡēzər | noun1 North American informal, derogatory an old man. 2 British informal a man: he strikes me as a decent geezer - New Oxford Dictionary

Maybe you need to take another hiatus to refine your posting to not be so insulting...

TD




golder 26th May 2020 23:09


Originally Posted by Ancient Mariner (Post 10793667)
It's mostly all well and good in countries that look after it's citizens.
Per

Same here in Australia. The self-employed are given income to tide them over.


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