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-   -   Is this justice? (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/621927-justice.html)

Dan_Brown 26th May 2019 12:58

Is this justice?
Now I'm no great fan of the Medical establishment but this is ridiculous.

If he gave a wrong diagnoses because of poor communication the Dr. Would be strung up.


Espada III 26th May 2019 13:21

Having flown on flights with veiled women who removed the veil to eat and drink, I have every sympathy with the doctor. If he had misdiagnosed the child because of the mother mumbling through the veil ........

Stupid husband and stupid GMC.

They should fast track this case and return him to work.

BehindBlueEyes 26th May 2019 14:04

It would have been interesting had it been a female doctor who had asked her to remove her veil? Would the husband have been quite so vociferous? Perhaps, he would prefer to live under the Taliban regime where women were forbidden from receiving medical care from male doctors but perversely also wouldn’t allow females from being educated and therefore having the opportunity qualifying as medics?

The GMC need to grow a pair and tell this man that we do things differently in this country.

KelvinD 26th May 2019 16:15

Speaking from behind the veil does not muffle the woman's speech. It is a thin fabric veil, not a bloody theatre fire curtain!
And while I too have seen women eating without a veil, it is not just a simple of case of removing the offending piece of fabric, the whole head covering has to go. I have also watched many veiled women eating with the veil still in place. This is achieved by lifting the veil each time there is a need to get the fork or the glass to the mouth.
"That honourable Englishman that stands and fights" eh? BLX!
His fight is not with the GMC or the NHS but the agency by whom he was employed. I wonder why he chose pretend newspaper to air his grievance to, one year after event, rather than "stand and fight" the agency?

EEngr 26th May 2019 16:28

"Speaking from behind the veil does not muffle the woman's speech."

Perhaps not. But as a person with poor hearing (too much artillery at a young age) I find myself depending somewhat on lip-reading to understand conversation. Sometimes it's subconscious, but that could lead the doctor to misinterpret his loss of visual cues as mumbling.

WingNut60 26th May 2019 16:37

Originally Posted by KelvinD (Post 10480105)
Speaking from behind the veil does not muffle the woman's speech. It is a thin fabric veil, not a bloody theatre fire curtain!

No. It certainly does.
Maybe not detectable by someone with youthful hearing capability but for us older codgers it certainly does.

I attended a friends funeral today, a Muslim funeral. Ladies that I know well and who do not normally wear a niquab were barely intelligible, to me, speaking from behind a veil.
Similar reason as for EEngr.

VP959 26th May 2019 16:39

We have no idea what form of veil this was. Could have been something light, but equally it may not have been. That IS girl chose to lift her face covering when being interviewed, presumably so that her voice would be clearer. Seems quite reasonable to me for a doctor, who cannot afford to make an error, to want the best chance of being able to assess what a parent was saying. FWIW, we don't know whether or not the woman involved was a native English speaker, either. It seems quite possible that she was not, making comprehension even more challenging.

What do those who choose to cover their faces do when required to present photo ID? Do they just refuse?

Seems to me that some choose to make a fuss just because they can. I can't walk in to a shop or petrol station payment area wearing a crash helmet, as there is, quite reasonably, a requirement for faces to be visible. I note that there's a case going on in Wales where a chap is being prosecuted for covering up his face and refusing to remove the face covering when asked. I wonder if the same would apply to someone choosing to wear a veil?

As for the claim that the veil is required by religious beliefs, then it might pay those that suggest that this is the case to read the Quran.

Pontius Navigator 26th May 2019 18:33

Remember the Begum woman, she had no problem removing her face covering when being interviewed by a man for international TV. Only as she left the interview to join the local Muslim community did she cover up.

KelvinD 26th May 2019 19:08

Well, having read the comments above, all I can point to is the 30 odd years experience I had in the Middle East, often in communication with veiled women and I never encountered a problem hearing what was being said. I sympathise with what EEngr said. I have had (and still do as far as I can tell) good hearing and it seems to be lasting into my dotage. The Begum woman removing her face covering was simply down to a slick move on her part, wanting to present her "I'm not really one of those religious nutters" face to the media. AKA the sympathy vote. It certainly didn't work with me!
VP959 makes a couple of good points, the first one being that we don't know the facts surrounding this case. If the woman was not an native English speaker, then the doctor could perhaps have taken steps to have an interpreter on hand. He could/should also have arranged for a chaperone (female nurse would do) present. But, we don't know so can not argue either pro or con. All we have thus far is the word of a doctor who has an issue with his employer.
The second good point raised by VP is connection between the veil and religion. The veil (and the rest of the fancy dress) is mainly down to tribal/regional custom.

Chronus 26th May 2019 19:40

It is not just a matter of having difficulties in muffled speech. Could there not also be that the good doctors difficulties were exacerbated by accent and poor command of the patient`s English language and he felt obliged to ask her to remove the veil. Moreover I`d dread to think the consequences if he had asked her to disrobe should there have been a need to examine her rather more thoroughly. I wonder if there are any such lady pilots wearing that sort of garb and how their AME `s go about the job without risking their neck let alone their livelihood.

Impress to inflate 27th May 2019 10:55

Where do I sign his petition, count me as a signature. When you choose to live in a Western society then you have to live within it's bounds like lifer the veil for a judge, passport control officer and a police officer etc. A doctor asking to lift the veil isn't out of the realms.

Planemike 27th May 2019 10:57

I would like to sign too...........

Echo Romeo 27th May 2019 11:01

Originally Posted by Planemike (Post 10480551)
I would like to sign too...........

And me, I will sign with pleasure.

DaveReidUK 27th May 2019 13:17

Originally Posted by Espada III (Post 10480018)
stupid GMC

Why? What was their verdict?

Krystal n chips 27th May 2019 17:04

Doesn't take much to induce any form of reaction once Islam gets included and lo and behold, here we go again.

Slight problem here, one I'm sure you've all thought about, as did the originator of the petition. What was included in the complaint that gave the GMC no choice other than to resort to suspending the Dr ?...suspension is a pretty drastic action after all and surely there may well be alternative sanctions available.

You see, if you read this report, the comments by the Doctor bear a close similarity, in one sense, to those from Jonathan Aitken and that bloke from Kent who was doing dodgy deals with lithium batteries.....it's their choice of words and terms that start to make you wonder just what did happen and what was said, and possibly even more pertinently how it was said. The medical profession can be quite dictatorial at times, as well as patronising. Combine the inflection from both forms of delivery and the result may well cause offence .


radeng 27th May 2019 17:47

It does seem more than a bit silly at a time when the country is so very short of GPs for the GMC not to deal with it as a matter of urgency - say within a week.

Chronus 27th May 2019 18:14

Had it been a GP of the faith kitted out with the standard beard and the night dress who had asked her to lift her veil, I don`t suppose there would have been much fuss. But coming from an infidel it is considered to be religious discrimination. I suppose in future all GP practices across the country will need to have a doctor of every race,sexual orientation, colour and religion for arse protection. Cannot see any other way out.

Might be an idea to add this to the petition and send it to Jeremy so that he can include it in his manifesto for NHS reforms.

K & C,for alternative sanctions how about community service, circumcisions for 180 days.

DaveReidUK 27th May 2019 20:40

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10480795)
Slight problem here, one I'm sure you've all thought about, as did the originator of the petition. What was included in the complaint that gave the GMC no choice other than to resort to suspending the Dr ?...suspension is a pretty drastic action after all and surely there may well be alternative sanctions available.

He hasn't been suspended by the GMC.

WingNut60 27th May 2019 21:22

What was the point of the doctor's appointment in the first place?
It seems that she could have done it over the phone.

Krystal n chips 28th May 2019 06:22

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10480920)
He hasn't been suspended by the GMC.

Ah, correct. I misinterpreted the paragraph about being suspended. Presumably the suspension was initiated by the agency and / or the LHA in Stoke once aware of the GMC's letter .

That said, it's still interesting as to why this course of action was taken, rather than apply other sanctions, such as a verbal warning, or "words of advice " for example.

I am aware that suspension is the default option for serious allegations given by doing so those involved ) are removed from their work areas and hence neither able to influence an outcome along with being removed from those making the accusations which may escalate and result in grounds for further disciplinary action.

As I say though, you get the impression the allegation contained the complaint to the GMC may be far more profound than the reports suggest.

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