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Fly Aiprt 1st Sep 2019 15:35


Originally Posted by Imagegear (Post 10559298)
t even if a "hard border" is established between Ireland and Northern Ireland, for immigration purposes, it will be as porous as the Dover/Calais/Zeebrugge/Boulogne fiasco.

While it is possible to move illegally between Canada and the US across the border, the likelihood of one being intercepted and asked for ID may well result in a swift repatriation without the option of ever returning. Contrast that with the EU's approach, something lacking?

IG

Maybe revoking the Sangatte Protocol and the Treaty of Le Touquet, and having the UK controling its own borders and not letting the job to France (or Belgium) might change things.

wiggy 1st Sep 2019 15:42

I'm sure Italy, France, Belgium and Spain would like to give the impression of tightening their border, but you need more than a few border posts....near where I am, on the border of two of the countries you have listed, the desperate simply avoid the major routes (which very much do get checked/monitored) by walking across the mountains....I'm not sure what approach you suggest the EU take to stop that given that the German units garrisoned down here in WW2, along with their friends amongst the locals, were pretty ruthless and even they couldn't seal the border (thankfully).

https://dahu-ariegeois.fr/passeurs-ariege-pyrenees/

As for topic of the ROI/UK border...is it worth remembering that the ROI chose not to become part of the Schengen area in part because of it's obligations under the Good Friday Agreement?

Pontius Navigator 1st Sep 2019 16:28


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10559238)
Pontius, it is just surprising that the first though that came to your mind was the hotel fraudulously sold British mussels for Brittany or ?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt as English comprehension in not your first language, but nowhere did I suggest that either establishment was fraudulently claiming their mussels were sourced from other than the Baltic or Brittany. What I was doubting was that both claims were true.

NutLoose 1st Sep 2019 17:35


Originally Posted by KelvinD (Post 10559037)
This morning's news reports that Michel Barnier "rejects demands for backstop to be axed". Is he really too dim to see that, without some give and take on both sides, Johnson will get his way and leave without a deal? That will mean the term 'backstop' will revert to the meaning it had when I was a kid playing cricket in the street; wicket keeper. I wonder if M. Barnier will still be banging on about the bloody backstop even then?


Personally I see it as the EU were showing signs of finally coming around to the UK's point of view as it began to sink in that a hard Brexit was now a serious threat and everything looked at it happening.

Then all the actions started taking place to prevent it and Barnier realised perhaps the hard Brexit isn't as cast in stone he first realised, so he stated what he has said and hopes that it will fragment the UK government again and prevent it.

VP959 1st Sep 2019 17:52


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 10559373)
Personally I see it as the EU were showing signs of finally coming around to the UK's point of view as it began to sink in that a hard Brexit was now a serious threat and everything looked at it happening.

Then all the actions started taking place to prevent it and Barnier realised perhaps the hard Brexit isn't as cast in stone he first realised, so he stated what he has said and hopes that it will fragment the UK government again and prevent it.

That's precisely my take on it. The mass demonstrations are almost certainly making a no deal Brexit more likely, as they are giving the EU negotiators the view that there's a chance of the UK backing down in the negotiations and accepting whatever the EU demands.

I can't recall a time when a vocal minority was so committed to undermining, perhaps trying to overturn, a government. It seems clear that there is near-zero support for Jeremy Corbyn as a leader of the country, and precious little realistic support for any other party leader except BJ, so just what do these protesters hope to achieve? I'm all in favour of unseating BJ, but I'd want to see some sign that there was a credible alternative first, and that seems to be non-existent.

ATNotts 1st Sep 2019 18:20


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10559324)
I'm sure Italy, France, Belgium and Spain would like to give the impression of tightening their border, but you need more than a few border posts....near where I am, on the border of two of the countries you have listed, the desperate simply avoid the major routes (which very much do get checked/monitored) by walking across the mountains....I'm not sure what approach you suggest the EU take to stop that given that the German units garrisoned down here in WW2, along with their friends amongst the locals, were pretty ruthless and even they couldn't seal the border (thankfully).

https://dahu-ariegeois.fr/passeurs-ariege-pyrenees/

As for topic of the ROI/UK border...is it worth remembering that the ROI chose not to become part of the Schengen area in part because of it's obligations under the Good Friday Agreement?

I always assumed that the ROI decided they wouldn't join Schengen since the UK essentially wouldn't let them, or at least wouldn't make it easy for them. The Irish are, I believe the only foreigners allowed to vote in UK parliamentary elections and it might have been a difficult sell to Irish nationals to lose the vote in UK. Also, I imagine, it had more than a little to do with the pre-existence of the common travel area.


Fly Aiprt 1st Sep 2019 19:27


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10559337)
I will give you the benefit of the doubt as English comprehension in not your first language

Hello Pontius,
Thank you for so cleverly worded a message that I can't even take exception to the suggestion that I understood diddly squat ;-)


but nowhere did I suggest that either establishment was fraudulently claiming their mussels were sourced from other than the Baltic or Brittany. What I was doubting was that both claims were true.
I'm afraid you got things all mixed up.
This is what you said, which was hmm, unfounded, to put it mildly :

As an aside, in Belgium was a hotel with its restaurant and a separate restaurant to one side. The motel to the North advertised Brittany mussels; the restaurant to the South advertised Baltic mussels. I found it improbable that the two sourced their mussels from different places. As likely they were Dutch mussels from British mussel lays.
Can't figure out where you got that idea.

Pontius Navigator 1st Sep 2019 20:20

OK, I forgot the last, but just pointing out that the Nederland was as likely source as the two restaurants were unlikely to have used two different sources so a third was as likely. And of course the British lays become Dutch when they grow to maturity.

Fareastdriver 1st Sep 2019 20:22

The mussels I eat come from the Shetlands so I'm not interested.

Just a spotter 1st Sep 2019 20:31


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10559398)
I always assumed that the ROI decided they wouldn't join Schengen since the UK essentially wouldn't let them, or at least wouldn't make it easy for them. The Irish are, I believe the only foreigners allowed to vote in UK parliamentary elections and it might have been a difficult sell to Irish nationals to lose the vote in UK. Also, I imagine, it had more than a little to do with the pre-existence of the common travel area.

Ireland didn’t join Schengen because the UK did not join. It had nothing to with the UK “letting” Ireland join. As Northern Ireland is part of the UK, had Ireland joined Schengen, the Common Travel Area between Ireland and the UK (Incl Northern Ireland ) would have been threatened, much like Brexit today threatens free movement. Hence, the government of the day decided they needed to preserve free movement across the border, and keep the CTA in place.

As to voting rights, UK citizens resident in Ireland can currently vote in Local, European and General elections, but not referenda or presidential elections. Similarly, Irish citizens in the UK can vote in local, European and general elections. It’s worth noting that in the UK, citizens of Commonwealth countries and those from Cyprus and Malta can register to vote in general elections along with those from the Isle of Man and Channel Islands.

JAS

Fly Aiprt 1st Sep 2019 20:40


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10559467)
but just pointing out that the Nederland was as likely source as the two restaurants were unlikely to have used two different sources so a third was as likely.

It may be surprising for a Briton, but on the Continent it is very usual to provide foods from different origins. Particularly so when it comes to wines, meat, fish, sea food.
And advertising a false origin is a fraud easily detected by any connoisseur. And fiercely punished by law and customers.


And of course the British lays become Dutch when they grow to maturity.
Of this I am not aware, and would appreciate some source to corroborate your statement.
British mussels must be as good as any, but why resort to them when there have been so many excellent varieties of mussels on the Continent for centuries ?

I must say that the evocation of asking for British mussels in a restaurant have been met with pitying smiles among my friends ;-)



Icare9 1st Sep 2019 21:18

Hey, Boris, if you need me to make up the numbers in the House of Lords, you have my PM (that's Private Message, not Prime Minister) but happy to take on that role and wheel out a proper guillotine (in) motion for those who want to Remain (on the head losing side)

Fly Aiprt 1st Sep 2019 21:21


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 10559373)



Personally I see it as the EU were showing signs of finally coming around to the UK's point of view as it began to sink in that a hard Brexit was now a serious threat and everything looked at it happening.

Then all the actions started taking place to prevent it and Barnier realised perhaps the hard Brexit isn't as cast in stone he first realised, so he stated what he has said and hopes that it will fragment the UK government again and prevent it.

It's funny to note that press reports on the Continent say exactly the opposite^^!
Just change Barnier for Johnson and replace EU with UK.

Blossy 1st Sep 2019 21:31

This thread is the gift that goes on giving...…
The remainers are quite likely to guarantee a No Deal is what we are going to end up with.
Brilliant tactics on their part, eh?

Steepclimb 1st Sep 2019 21:45


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 10559244)
Once again you presume you know what people voted for.

This whole deal or no deal stuff has been dreamt up by opponents of Brexit to try to scare people into changing their minds.

I voted to leave the EU. I accept whatever comes with it.

People who voted remain will probably never understand why people voted to leave. As long as you insist on trying to rationalise it through your own thought processes you almost certainly won’t get it.

I know why people voted to remain and I won’t criticise them for it. Why must those that voted remain insist on trying to change the minds of Brexiteers and continue trying to label them?

There is probably no point in me continuing to try to explain it. Your mind is made up. As is mine.

BV

Because it is an obvious mistake to leave the EU. It doesn't get more obvious than that. The remainers consistently point this out. The Brexit people think there is some benefit to leaving. Yet there is no coherent argument in favour. Just nebulous hopeful and aspirational notions of taking back control, reducing immigration and rest. Which if you bothered to listen to Dominic Cummins own words is merely hype.

By the end of this year in my opinion, when the reality of a no deal Brexit becomes clear you'll be as hard pushed to find a Brexit voter as the allies had difficulty finding a Nazi supporter in 1946.

Sorry to Godwinise the topic. But someone had to do it.

History will not be kind to Johnson, Cummins, Hove, Rees Mooge and the rest of the cabal.

But history is the past. Sadly this is a predictable future.

SARF 1st Sep 2019 22:08

In your opinion. I personally think it will be as hard to find a remain voter as it is to find a Blair voter

Fly Aiprt 1st Sep 2019 22:29


Originally Posted by Blossy (Post 10559515)
This thread is the gift that goes on giving...…
The remainers are quite likely to guarantee a No Deal is what we are going to end up with.
Brilliant tactics on their part, eh?

What if Brexit was the Brexiteers' fault, and No-Deal the No-Deal people's fault ?

Phantom Driver 1st Sep 2019 22:39

Meanwhile it is reported that more illegals attempted the France-UK crossing in one month than the whole of last year . So much for " taking back control of the borders". Current coastguard fleet ( 5 ? ) ain't going to cut it . With all the cash BoJo's throwing around , I do wonder why no funding mentioned so far for air or sea surveillance assets . Obviously not considered sufficiently important as election winners .

(p.s not much comment on Ms Patels' bold statement--" Free movement will end on 1 Nov " being quietly shelved after legal advice pointed out this was a no-go item . Does make you question the calibre of some in the current administration and their ability to steer the good ship GB on a steady course in the gathering storm . )

Mr Optimistic 2nd Sep 2019 01:49


Originally Posted by Steepclimb (Post 10559528)
Because it is an obvious mistake to leave the EU. It doesn't get more obvious than that. The remainers consistently point this out. The Brexit people think there is some benefit to leaving. Yet there is no coherent argument in favour. Just nebulous hopeful and aspirational notions of taking back control, reducing immigration and rest. Which if you bothered to listen to Dominic Cummins own words is merely hype.

By the end of this year in my opinion, when the reality of a no deal Brexit becomes clear you'll be as hard pushed to find a Brexit voter as the allies had difficulty finding a Nazi supporter in 1946.

Sorry to Godwinise the topic. But someone had to do it.

History will not be kind to Johnson, Cummins, Hove, Rees Mooge and the rest of the cabal.

But history is the past. Sadly this is a predictable future.

You have no evidence for this. Yes I am sure you want it to be true, but isn't it a simple matter that other people think differently ​​​to you and you can't accept it? So now you make predictions of the future which you obviously can't know?

Bob Viking 2nd Sep 2019 03:17

Steepclimb
 
As I said, your mind is made up so I shan’t bother to continue the conversation. Over the previous bajillion pages I, and others, have explained our reasoning. You cannot or will not see it from any perspective other than your own.

A few years down the line if Britain is destitute you are more than welcome to say I told you so. You firmly believe this will be the case (you even seem like you want it to be the case just so you can justify your own stance). I, and many others like me, firmly believe otherwise. None of us are clairvoyant though.

BV


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