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Ninthace 14th Jan 2022 12:13


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 11169938)
I'm talking about the ECJ. Whether you agree with what goes on in Poland, Hungary or Romania (and I don't), I'm uncomfortable with a sovereign nation being legally subservient to a non-country's so-called court. As for the disputes being of no concern, why are Poland being fined a million a day for telling the ECJ to mind their own business ?

The EU was a trading club which is now taking itself rather too seriously.

I would disagree. There should always be a higher independent authority that nations in dispute can appeal too if normal negotiations and diplomacy fail. We have the International Court of Justice in the Hague - the European Court of Justice is a sub set of the same thing People object to the ECJ it because it contains the E word but the fact is, as a nation we were always fully represented in the ECJ.

LowNSlow 14th Jan 2022 13:46

But Ninthace, the EU isn't a nation, it's a supposedly democratic entity telling some of it's members what to do when the elected governments of said countries are disagreeing with them.

Part of the argument with Poland is over the closure of a lignite mine. Is the EU demanding Germany stop their, vastly bigger, lignite mining enterprises? Err, no they are not.

pug 14th Jan 2022 14:17


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11169984)
But Ninthace, the EU isn't a nation, it's a supposedly democratic entity telling some of it's members what to do when the elected governments of said countries are disagreeing with them.

Part of the argument with Poland is over the closure of a lignite mine. Is the EU demanding Germany stop their, vastly bigger, lignite mining enterprises? Err, no they are not.

Lets put this into context. The issue is one of international dispute due to groundwater being drained from the Czech Republic, and Poland extending licence without prior environmental impact assessment. This is not about what is being mined, its about the proximity to another member state and how its being undertaken. Therefore your remark about Germany is irrelevant. In fact, if it was Poland complaining about the Czech Republic, they would have rules in favour of Poland. It proves the usefulness of the ECJ.

Also, despite all this, there is no will in Poland to leave the EU. Time perhaps to stop the misplaced - and tediously transparent - virtue signalling?

LowNSlow 14th Jan 2022 15:12

pug, thank you for the clarification on the reason for the call to close the mine.

Just to clarify the point though, the much larger German opencast lignite mines are also having very significant affects on the surrounding groundwater. Are the mines being told to close immediately? No they are not.

I don't think Poland wants to or will leave the EU. I have no desire to see the EU break up despite what your rather tedious comments imply. I do think that Poland wants to be treated like a sovereign country within the EU, like Germany, France and Italy are.

pug 14th Jan 2022 15:37


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11170020)
pug, thank you for the clarification on the reason for the call to close the mine.

Just to clarify the point though, the much larger German opencast lignite mines are also having very significant affects on the surrounding groundwater. Are the mines being told to close immediately? No they are not.

I don't think Poland wants to or will leave the EU. I have no desire to see the EU break up despite what your rather tedious comments imply. I do think that Poland wants to be treated like a sovereign country within the EU, like Germany, France and Italy are.

No, theyre not being told to close because the mines are not subject to international dispute between Germany and the other sovereign nations. Until the Czech Republic or Austria dispute this then it will remain an internal (German) issue. The difference being that the Polish mine at Turow is impacting on the ground water in the Czech Republic, and therefore the matter has been taken to the ECJ as it is a dispute between two sovereign nations (and EU member states), with the ECJ being arbiter.

Its a poor example if youre trying to suggest that Poland has less sovereignty than Germany, France and Italy.

LowNSlow 14th Jan 2022 16:11

I see your point about the difference between internal problems and international problems, however there are ongoing problems with the German Reichwald mine and it's affect on Polish water systems. As I'm sure you are aware, these issues have traditionally been handled by a tripartite group comprising elements of the Czech, German and Polish water authorities as well as the mining authorities. Until recently this has been successful but the Czech government, despite their point about the multiple reasons for the Czech water shortage not being fully supported by the Czech Geological Survey or the fact that the Polish authorities are implementing a solution which has worked on a German mine, decided to take the case to the ECJ:


Many environmental issues remain controversial at the expert level as well. One of these concerns the impact of the Turw mine on water losses on the Czech side. The Czech Geological Survey (ČGS), which has been studying water level changes in the vicinity of the mine in recent years, admitted at the beginning of 2021 that while in deeper aquifers water loss is solely due to the operations conducted by the facility, in the higher layers (from which Hrdek and Nisou, among others, draws its water) it is a combination of the impact of mining, the on-site water intake and the drought of 201519. The consequence of the latter on water loss in the region was also emphasised by an analysis from the Polish Institute of Meteorology and Water Management in 2020. According to ČGS, it is also impossible to determine the specific cause of the subsidence. On the other hand, the phenomena of falling groundwater levels or subsidence observed on the German side (in Zittau) are not only the result of Turws activities: they can also be partly attributed to the Olbersdorf open-pit mine which operated on its outskirts until 1991. Most Czech experts are sceptical about the effectiveness of PGEs underground screen project (aimed at protecting a Czech water intake), which is scheduled to be ready in autumn 2021. PGE, in turn, has demonstrated the effectiveness of a similar solution in a mine on the German border side. One of the objections has already been verified by ČSG: since the water flows from the Czech Republic to Poland, it has basically been ruled out that the mine is contaminating its deposits on the Czech side.
The more I read about lignite mining the more I find it one of the most disgusting methods of energy production.

Ninthace 14th Jan 2022 16:31


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11169984)
But Ninthace, the EU isn't a nation, it's a supposedly democratic entity telling some of it's members what to do when the elected governments of said countries are disagreeing with them.

Part of the argument with Poland is over the closure of a lignite mine. Is the EU demanding Germany stop their, vastly bigger, lignite mining enterprises? Err, no they are not.

The EU is an association of states that have agreed, amongst other things, to be bound by the decisions of a court composed of representatives of the those same states. As I said the ECJ is a composite entity made up of representatives from those states, The EU is not a separate entity distinct from the member states - it is the member states.

ATNotts 14th Jan 2022 16:59


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11170044)
I see your point about the difference between internal problems and international problems, however there are ongoing problems with the German Reichwald mine and it's affect on Polish water systems. As I'm sure you are aware, these issues have traditionally been handled by a tripartite group comprising elements of the Czech, German and Polish water authorities as well as the mining authorities. Until recently this has been successful but the Czech government, despite their point about the multiple reasons for the Czech water shortage not being fully supported by the Czech Geological Survey or the fact that the Polish authorities are implementing a solution which has worked on a German mine, decided to take the case to the ECJ:



The more I read about lignite mining the more I find it one of the most disgusting methods of energy production.

I agree, and a supposedly environmentally conscious nation such as Germany should be ashamed of itself for continuing to mine 'brown coal'.

SWBKCB 14th Jan 2022 17:13


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11170067)
I agree, and a supposedly environmentally conscious nation such as Germany should be ashamed of itself for continuing to mine 'brown coal'.

How are they going to keep the lights on during those dark, still days? Russian gas?

Bergerie1 14th Jan 2022 17:22

By recommision the nuclear power stations - Simples

LowNSlow 14th Jan 2022 17:23

Nuclear power provided 13.3% of their requirements and would continue to do so but they closed three perfectly serviceable nuclear power stations at the end of 2021 and are planning to close the remaining three on 31st Dec 2022. If they had kept them open then they would have less need of the brown muck to make their ziggyvolts with.

ATNotts 14th Jan 2022 17:24


Originally Posted by SWBKCB (Post 11170075)
How are they going to keep the lights on during those dark, still days? Russian gas?

Nuclear, had a rather silly shortsighted kneejerk policy change to shut that avenue not been taken.
​​​​​
LowNSlow :

Beat me to it!

Ninthace 14th Jan 2022 17:54

OK. Time for my lignite story. I will accept fact checking as it was told to me by a member of the British Frontier Service, as distinct for the British Border Force. Just beyond Helmstedt there was/is a big lignite mine. When the border between the two Germanys came down, the border went across the mine and, as luck would have it, the mining machinery was up their end so they helped themselves to it and the coal. The years passed and not only would they not give the machinery back, they ended up selling the muck to West Germany.
Atomkraft? Ja bitte.
Can we get back to the point, whatever it was, please?

B Fraser 15th Jan 2022 09:41


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11169948)
I would disagree. There should always be a higher independent authority that nations in dispute can appeal too if normal negotiations and diplomacy fail.

That suggests that you support the concept of one global court. The supreme world judge would probably rotate every few years so would you be comfortable with the concept of a dispute between say, Mexico and the USA being decided by a chap in Beijing, Istanbul or New Delhi ? Regardless of what you may think of an individual nation, they have the right of self-determination.

Mr Atnotts,

If the likes of Poland and Hungary are so abhorrent, why did the EU welcome them in ? As in the case of Greece who failed all of the fiscal hurdles, it was expansionism at any cost in order to fulfil the grand vanity project. The EU are now complaining at the consequence of their own actions.

Ninthace 15th Jan 2022 09:48


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 11170295)
That suggests that you support the concept of one global court. The supreme world judge would probably rotate every few years so would you be comfortable with the concept of a dispute between say, Mexico and the USA being decided by a chap in Beijing, Istanbul or New Delhi ? Regardless of what you may think of an individual nation, they have the right of self-determination.

Might I draw your attention to
https://www.icj-cij.org/en
We have one. It is part of the UN of which the UK is a member.

The ECJ was the local equivalent for the EU.

B Fraser 15th Jan 2022 11:53

Ahhh the UN. If ever proof was needed that regional or pan global pseudo-governmental organisations are ineffective.

Ninthace 15th Jan 2022 12:04


Originally Posted by B Fraser (Post 11170347)
Ahhh the UN. If ever proof was needed that regional or pan global pseudo-governmental organisations are ineffective.

That is a fairly fatuous thing to say so I will not debate it. If an international court did not exist, how would you resolve disputes between nations?

pug 15th Jan 2022 14:26


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11170351)
That is a fairly fatuous thing to say so I will not debate it. If an international court did not exist, how would you resolve disputes between nations?

I sadly feel some Brexiteers would rather return to the days when international disputes were resolved with a good old fashioned war.

Sallyann1234 15th Jan 2022 14:49


Originally Posted by pug (Post 11170401)
I sadly feel some Brexiteers would rather return to the days when international disputes were resolved with a good old fashioned war.

​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Did they ever stop?

ATNotts 15th Jan 2022 14:51


Originally Posted by pug (Post 11170401)
I sadly feel some Brexiteers would rather return to the days when international disputes were resolved with a good old fashioned war.

It's called living in the past which is a common mindset among that cohort.


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