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Ninthace 20th Nov 2021 14:01


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11144883)
Ninthace, I agree. I was not trying to suggest that collecting slaves was a primary cause of wars, I was just objecting to KnC's absurd suggestion that any had been fought to establish the EU's Freedom of movement. The concept did not even exist at the time of the last European disagreement.

On the other hand, the right to travel freely without let or hindrance shows what a nonsense national borders really are and I think the loss of freedom of movement for EU citizens between the UK and other countries has been one of the absolute tragedies of Brexit.

pug 20th Nov 2021 15:39

Why must it always come back to WW2? As has been said, there have been countless wars in Europe over the years, but they have pretty much stopped since the formation of the EEC and as membership grew. Think it’s a good example of one of its successes.

Alsacienne 20th Nov 2021 15:42


I think the loss of freedom of movement for EU citizens between the UK and other countries has been one of the absolute tragedies of Brexit.
I couldn't agree with you more .... and (let's be egalitarian) for the Brits as well.

ATNotts 20th Nov 2021 16:17


Originally Posted by pug (Post 11144905)
Why must it always come back to WW2? As has been said, there have been countless wars in Europe over the years, but they have pretty much stopped since the formation of the EEC and as membership grew. Think it’s a good example of one of its successes.

It always comes back to WW2 for British people because (they) we revel in wallowing in the past. Just look at all the WW2 related news reports and commemorations we have, and how to many who weren't even alive during 39-45 an England vs Germany football match is another opportunity to recall the bloody war!

Ninthace 20th Nov 2021 16:22


Originally Posted by Alsacienne (Post 11144907)
I couldn't agree with you more .... and (let's be egalitarian) for the Brits as well.

I don't the Brits ever really appreciated it. You have to be fairly old to remember the bad old days when the wait to get clear of Customs in Dover was longer than the crossing, even if you did not start the clock until you left the ferry. Even after we joined the EU there was still the ritual of booking a crossing and the queues to join the tunnel or board the ferry.

When I lived in SW France I could pop across the border to fill up with cheap fuel and buy litres of draft port and wine and fishy things in tins. The only thing that indicated the border was a road sign. I could ski in 3 countries without too much trouble too, (though Andorra meant an early start). Likewise, when we lived in Germany, we would eat in Germany, follow it up with coffee in Holland and finish off with a few beers in Belgium.
Things got even better when we did not have the nausea of changing currency.

Krystal n chips 20th Nov 2021 17:14


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11144883)
Ninthace, I agree. I was not trying to suggest that collecting slaves was a primary cause of wars, I was just objecting to KnC's absurd suggestion that any had been fought to establish the EU's Freedom of movement. The concept did not even exist at the time of the last European disagreement.

Keep digging, JCB will be in touch to offer you a course on your digger of choice shortly.

You see I never proposed any war was fought for the reasons you suggest. What I did say, was, irrespective of their backgrounds, many who attended Remembrance Day services, would also have voted to leave the EU and by doing so negated the UK from being a participant in FOM , FOM being one of the core pillars of the EU for reasons which are glaringly obvious, unless your name was Farage et al of course, and therein lies the hypocrisy.

Thereafter, you clearly aspire to the advanced digger course by mentioning Germany by way of exemplification.

" Likewise, when we lived in Germany, we would eat in Germany, follow it up with coffee in Holland and finish off with a few beers in Belgium "

There must have been very few people who did a tour in Germany in the Clutch who didn't take regular advantage of the above .

Effluent Man 21st Nov 2021 08:14

What happened to Frosty the No man's much vaunted talks with the EU? As we have heard nothing I presume he didn't get very far.

BizJetJock 21st Nov 2021 16:20

I think it's you who needs a JCB KnC!

What I did say, was, irrespective of their backgrounds, many who attended Remembrance Day services, would also have voted to leave the EU
Er... no you didn't!

F.O.M ...millions have died to ensure this could be offered
And I, perhaps rashly, took that to refer to wars in the last century or so. And then pointed out that this was not the case. I used WW2 as an example being the most recent, but also pointed out that others are available; Napoleonic wars, for example. I'm sure EU freedom of movement was at the forefromt of everyone's mind as they struggled for control of Europe!
However, if I am mistaken, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all as to how the victims of, say, the 1918 Flu epidemic died to ensure FoM? Or the Irish potato famine?


Ninthace 21st Nov 2021 16:26


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11145302)
I think it's you who needs a JCB KnC!

Er... no you didn't!

And I, perhaps rashly, took that to refer to wars in the last century or so. And then pointed out that this was not the case. I used WW2 as an example being the most recent, but also pointed out that others are available; Napoleonic wars, for example. I'm sure EU freedom of movement was at the forefromt of everyone's mind as they struggled for control of Europe!
However, if I am mistaken, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all as to how the victims of, say, the 1918 Flu epidemic died to ensure FoM? Or the Irish potato famine?

Be fair BJJ. Had the Little Corsican achieved his aims we would have had freedom of movement throughout Europe and even as far as Moscow and Cairo. :ok: Even better, we could have done it all in French!
Had the Austrian Corporal succeeded, we would have had the same but in German.

Fortunately, I speak both.

Krystal n chips 21st Nov 2021 16:55


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11145302)
I think it's you who needs a JCB KnC!

Er... no you didn't!

And I, perhaps rashly, took that to refer to wars in the last century or so. And then pointed out that this was not the case. I used WW2 as an example being the most recent, but also pointed out that others are available; Napoleonic wars, for example. I'm sure EU freedom of movement was at the forefromt of everyone's mind as they struggled for control of Europe!
However, if I am mistaken, perhaps you would care to enlighten us all as to how the victims of, say, the 1918 Flu epidemic died to ensure FoM? Or the Irish potato famine?

You're quite emotional really aren't you ? (to paraphrase Lee Marvin in "The Dirty Dozen " )

Nope, I did mention over the last couple of centuries knowing full well what would emerge as it does time after monotonous time here on JB and you duly delivered.
But now, you've moved into the realms of the surreal...being thick, I can't make any correlation between the two examples you cite above and FOM.

Anyway the UK has now turned it's collective back on the luxury of FOM in EU states and continues to isolate itself more and more from the EU...and for absolutely no reason.

The Guiness Book of Records should record the UK leaving as the largest case numbers of self harm ever recorded

BizJetJock 21st Nov 2021 16:55

Indeed, that is the case. And it would be interesting to peer into a parallel universe where Napoleon did succeed. Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité across the the continent may have prevented the later, far worse conflicts. I am pretty sure that a Europe following on from a different outcome to WW2 would be a far less pleasant place.
And I can be similalrly complacent about my language skills, having lived in both countries. 😎

Ninthace 21st Nov 2021 17:00


Originally Posted by BizJetJock (Post 11145326)
.........
And I can be similalrly complacent about my language skills, having lived in both countries. 😎

Snap! :ok:

Mr Mac 21st Nov 2021 17:26

Ninthace
May I add Spanish to the mix ,though from South America in my case.;)
cheers
Mr Mac

Ninthace 21st Nov 2021 18:56


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 11145349)
Ninthace
May I add Spanish to the mix ,though from South America in my case.;)
cheers
Mr Mac

I envy you. My Spanish, like my Dutch is sketchy to say the least. Order a drink and a meal, book a room for the night and after that I'm pretty well out. I used to watch Dutch TV and still do from time to time, but while I can sort of understand it, none of it really sticks and my Spanish is not even that good. IIRC, the Spanish had dreams of European domination too, and I am not just thinking of the Armada.

Richard W 21st Nov 2021 22:21


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11145309)
Be fair BJJ. Had the Little Corsican achieved his aims we would have had freedom of movement throughout Europe and even as far as Moscow and Cairo. :ok: Even better, we could have done it all in French!
Had the Austrian Corporal succeeded, we would have had the same but in German.

Are you sure? Even German citizens came to lack FoM within Nazi Germany.

Ninthace 21st Nov 2021 23:26


Originally Posted by Richard W (Post 11145458)
Are you sure? Even German citizens came to lack FoM within Nazi Germany.

Fairly sure, control of movement is normally “ hostilities only”.

Richard W 22nd Nov 2021 10:32


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11145469)
Fairly sure, control of movement is normally “ hostilities only”.

That's not the impression I get from the pamphlet Labour under Nazi Rule. The more restrictive aspects came in in 1938, though there were earlier provisions to stop people moving to regions of 'high' unemployment to take up work. Moreover, I thought the plan was for low-level hostilities to continue indefinitely in the East.

Krystal n chips 23rd Nov 2021 09:33

Brexit ! the panacea to all the UK's woes now just distant memories as the glorious sunny uplands emerge.

And the UK's so much better off now we haven't got to support those EU scroungers...and as for asylum seekers, well it's obvious innit, covert ISIS insurgents every one of them.

However, for those who may be seriously interested here's some interesting comparative numbers . The more rabid leavers are welcome to comment with regard to the reality of this article.

Britain is in desperate need of workers. So why is it trying to keep them out? | Simon Jenkins | The Guardian

LowNSlow 23rd Nov 2021 10:22

KnC, as is well known, visa overstays are by far the highest number of illegal immigrants and yes, that term is valid as they have not used a legal form of entry so by definition they are illegal immigrants not migrants or accidental visitors.

Where I disagree with Simon Jenkins is his assertions that they are: a) desperate to offer their services - really? Most of the younger ones who make up over majority of the people involved just disappear into society and b) Most of these refugees are by definition “middle class” - middle class why, because they scraped together the cash to travel halfway across the world, in some cases, to end up on a dinghy in the Channel? Surely that would say resourceful rather than middle class?

The implication of the statement:


Along the east coast of England, British employers scan the horizon. They are desperate for any migrant workers whom Boris Johnson will bless with visas to pick fruit, kill turkeys, staff hotels or care for elderly people. At the same time along the south coast British politicians howl with horror at boatloads of just such people as they come ashore, desperate to offer their services.
that these people who are all apparently doctors, engineers etc as implied later in the article, would be only too glad to rush over to East Anglia for a season of crop picking or working in care homes is absurd to be polite.

The fact is that the majority of the people who come off these boats are single males between the ages of 18-39 who will disappear into "the system".

Personally I think they should be processed through the immigration system as quickly as possible and allowed to work using whatever discipline or skill they have. What I do disagree with is allowing people like the young man who was filmed getting into a boat who, when asked how long he had been in France shouted over his shoulder "7 years, I've just got out of prison after 5 years" to infiltrate society. I deliberately didn't say "integrate" by the way as I didn't think it appropriate.

PS As I replied to this I assume I will now be labelled "Rabid Leaver"?

Krystal n chips 23rd Nov 2021 12:36


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11146003)
KnC, as is well known, visa overstays are by far the highest number of illegal immigrants and yes, that term is valid as they have not used a legal form of entry so by definition they are illegal immigrants not migrants or accidental visitors.

Where I disagree with Simon Jenkins is his assertions that they are: a) desperate to offer their services - really? Most of the younger ones who make up over majority of the people involved just disappear into society and b) Most of these refugees are by definition “middle class” - middle class why, because they scraped together the cash to travel halfway across the world, in some cases, to end up on a dinghy in the Channel? Surely that would say resourceful rather than middle class?

The implication of the statement:



that these people who are all apparently doctors, engineers etc as implied later in the article, would be only too glad to rush over to East Anglia for a season of crop picking or working in care homes is absurd to be polite.

The fact is that the majority of the people who come off these boats are single males between the ages of 18-39 who will disappear into "the system".

Personally I think they should be processed through the immigration system as quickly as possible and allowed to work using whatever discipline or skill they have. What I do disagree with is allowing people like the young man who was filmed getting into a boat who, when asked how long he had been in France shouted over his shoulder "7 years, I've just got out of prison after 5 years" to infiltrate society. I deliberately didn't say "integrate" by the way as I didn't think it appropriate.

PS As I replied to this I assume I will now be labelled "Rabid Leaver"?

Relax, you don't fall into the rabid category, there are plenty of others however.

That was a very interesting link. Shame you were a bit selective in your quote, because reading the whole article is much more informative.

You wouldn't have a link to the news item you quote by any chance please ?...you see, it sounds like something that would be broadcast by the niche level channel Nige is currently appearing on...amazingly, it's still on air.

And so to, yet another, astute piece of "thinking" by a Gov't desperate at any costs to prevent the rapid unravelling of the many lies and deceptions associated with Brexit.

This little gem also features the charmless Ms Patel.

But who would ever have imagined all that talent across the globe would be so reticent to hurtle to the UK shores and be a contributor to the resurgent "Global Britain " (Empire resurrection and status pending)

Post-Brexit scheme to lure Nobel winners to UK fails to attract single applicant | Immigration and asylum | The Guardian


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