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Krystal n chips 19th Aug 2019 11:02

" I was under the impression that Brexit was about controlling your borders."

We've never actually lost control of our borders.......but the mantra about "taking back control " included this myth.

SaulGoodman 19th Aug 2019 11:09


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10549036)
" I was under the impression that Brexit was about controlling your borders."

We've never actually lost control of our borders.......but the mantra about "taking back control " included this myth.

I am confused because according to HM Government it is.
https://assets.publishing.service.go..._Union__1_.pdf

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 11:13


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman (Post 10549028)


Noel,
So I am able to bring goods into ROI from the continent. Then I bring them over into NI to bring them into the UK. I was under the impression that Brexit was about controlling your borders.

I am now actually in favour of a no deal Brexit. It has taken long enough. Your country is so divided right now the worst thing that can happen is to have Brexit delayed or even revoked. I, as a EU citizen, don’t want another negotiation dragging on forever to be rejected in Westminster again.

There is absolutely no chance of the EU and UK being able to rip up the current agreement, and getting the whole thing renegotiated and ready for Johnson's frankly ludicrous "do or die" deadline of 31.10.19, so you will get your wish, he is working towards a no deal, expects and wants a no deal, because that's what his extremist advisers are advocating. The objective of asking (well demanding really) a new deal with the totally unrealistic removal of a back stop for NI is in order that on the evening of 31st October he'll be able to make some sort Churchillian broadcast on TV blaming the EU for everything and invoking the Dunkirk and Blitz spirits. That'll wash with most here, much of the print media, and sections of the internet. It won't wash with a large section of the population at large though, and who knows what will happen from a societal standpoint.

If parliament is to stop a no deal Brexit, then it is looking increasingly likely they'll have to find a mechanism that will in reality revoke Art.50, since I believe many in the EU are of a similar mindset to yours. Had enough of the UK and it's dysfunctional government(s), parliament and democracy and say "goodbye and thanks for all the fish" on the 31st October. No extensions, no agreement. They can more easily afford that outcome than can the UK, but hey, we voted to leave 3 years ago! It's our funeral.

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 11:17


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10549036)
" I was under the impression that Brexit was about controlling your borders."

We've never actually lost control of our borders.......but the mantra about "taking back control " included this myth.

The only border we ever lost control of is ironically the Irish Land Border. You only have to arrive at any port or airport from outside the UK, EU or third country to understand that. We could, but chose not, to ensure that people moving to the UK from another Member State and not finding work would be returned to their state of nationality. We chose not to do do that. Our choice (a poor one in my opinion).

ORAC 19th Aug 2019 11:30

It is already controlled under the CTA, as laid down in the Amsterdam Treaty and other bilateral agreements. See the document below, in particular all the items in Sections 1.1 to 1.4.

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...1/CBP-7661.pdf

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 11:38


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10549058)
It is already controlled under the CTA, as laid down in the Amsterdam Treaty and other bilateral agreements. See the document below, in particular all the items in Sections 1.1 to 1.4.

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...1/CBP-7661.pdf

That's fine then, so actually we never lost control of our borders, so "taking back control" was a false premise, you can't take back what you never relinquished!

NoelEvans 19th Aug 2019 11:50


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman (Post 10549028)
So I am able to bring goods into ROI from the continent. Then I bring them over into NI to bring them into the UK. I was under the impression that Brexit was about controlling your borders.


The UK Government has stated that most goods from the EU will be tariff-free. So why use that round-about routing for your goods? Why not bring them into the UK on the shortest route?

However some goods, like new cars, will be subject to tariffs. So you can bring your new Audi into the UK on your circuitous route (and I know from a recent driving holiday where we passed through LUX that you enjoy your Audis, and you drive them just as badly as everyone else), but try to register that new Audi in the UK and you will have to pay the tariff. No need for control 'at the border', but new Audis (as one example) coming into the UK can still be controlled. Will people want to buy those Audis if they are that much more expensive? That's up to them if they can afford it. Will the manufacturers of Audis be concerned about the drop in a lucrative market? That's up to them if they can afford it.


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman
I, as a EU citizen, don’t want another negotiation dragging on forever ...

I think a huge number of people agree with you and we don't want anyone (to use your golfing term) to putt this one into the rough again. (I carefully tried to refrain from referring to putting it into a bunker! But I didn't succeed. What were the Fawlty Towers comments? No! Let's stop there!!!)

dr dre 19th Aug 2019 12:00


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman (Post 10548994)
So... Where are you going to putt the border that you so desperately want to take control over? I don’t get it.

If the UK government is adamantly stating in public (despite leaked documents showing the truth) that there is going to be no border on the island of Ireland between the Republic and the North, then I guess to “take back control” they could do the obvious and easy thing and institute a people and customs border in the Irish Sea. The only people who would be upset at that are the DUP and they’ll probably be a footnote in political history soon.

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 12:05


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10549084)


If the UK government is adamantly stating in public (despite leaked documents showing the truth) that there is going to be no border on the island of Ireland between the Republic and the North, then I guess to “take back control” they could do the obvious and easy thing and institute a people and customs border in the Irish Sea. The only people who would be upset at that are the DUP and they’ll probably be a footnote in political history soon.

A no deal Brexit should ensure that result, as the Northern Irish will likely in relatively short order get a referendum and vote to join the Irish Republic. Job done, and the UK loses NI, and a border a la the English Channel runs down the Irish sea.

NoelEvans 19th Aug 2019 12:21


Originally Posted by dr dre (Post 10549084)


If the UK government is adamantly stating in public (despite leaked documents showing the truth) that there is going to be no border on the island of Ireland between the Republic and the North, then I guess to “take back control” they could do the obvious and easy thing and institute a people and customs border in the Irish Sea.

You really, really don't seem to understand this thing about the Common Travel Area, do you? It predates both the Schengen Agreement and the EU by many, many decades. Ireland is not in Schengen. Ireland is in the Common Travel Area. They are very, very different. I don't think any Irish government would want to risk incurring the wrath of their people by doing anything that would put the future of the Common Travel Area at risk.

Echo Romeo 19th Aug 2019 12:54


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10548871)
OK."the facts" .You are e.g; a French/Belgian/Greek nurse working in the NHS and have been for years. As it stood until yesterday you had until Dec 2020 to register/achieve settled status...that would allow you to enter the UK and live here for amongst other things, work purposes.

More "facts" from those I know who have tried going through the settled status process. It involves amongst other things an on-line application..but only through certain platforms..that it itself has been causing hang ups ...eventually if you get a receipt back - an e-mail...it comes with a disclaimer that the e-mail itself is not prove of entitlement to enter UK for work purposes ...but it's OK because the deadline for achieving Settled Status is Dec 2020...(fact)

Now Ms Patel opens mouth - more "facts" - the whole plan changes.

FOM ends 31 Oct....Nurse is going on holiday back to Europe on Oct (BTW school half term). Problem he/she now has is when she gets back to LHR/LGW/STN etc in early Nov does she hold up her EU27 passport and lie about why she is coming to the Uk (coming to the UK on holiday, honest) or does she explain she is coming back for work and get into an argument with Border, after all she has an e-mail - which in itself is worthless?

The "fact" is Ms Patels idea will quietly be dropped...employers will make sure of that.

As for citizenship - well funnily enough one of the joys of the EU was that changing citizenship wasn't required..and also (funnily enough) despite what the newspapers in the UK seem to try to make people think and would have you believe it often isn't a simple, quick, easy process to change..it can take years, (that is a fact) also some European countries don't allow dual citizenship ( also a fact). Given current events and some attitudes on display in the UK I can't imagine many Europeans will be rushing to jettison their native nationality just to hold down a job working e.g; in the NHS in the UK...and yes, I'm sure that will please many ( not sure if that is a fact or not).

And not to mention the cost of British Citizenship, which currently stands at £1330. For my partner who came here with her parents, in the early 60's at the age of 2 INVITED by our Government to work I might add! It is a bloody insult. Raised, educated and has worked continuously, paying into the system all her life. To have to now go and sit a British Citizenship exam through fear of not being allowed back into the Country she knows as home. What an f ing joke. She applied for and got 'settled status' which now it seems may not be worth the email its written on. I absolutely despair with this abysmal Government, who I will never vote for again.

Sallyann1234 19th Aug 2019 13:18


Originally Posted by Echo Romeo (Post 10549132)
And not to mention the cost of British Citizenship, which currently stands at £1330. For my partner who came here with her parents, in the early 60's at the age of 2 INVITED by our Government to work I might add! It is a bloody insult. Raised, educated and has worked continuously, paying into the system all her life. To have to now go and sit a British Citizenship exam through fear of not being allowed back into the Country she knows as home. What an f ing joke. She applied for and got 'settled status' which now it seems may not be worth the email its written on. I absolutely despair with this abysmal Government, who I will never vote for again.

Ah but you see, this is the result of DEMOCRACY. :ok: :*

rustle 19th Aug 2019 13:20

The same people now complaining about the cost of something usually whine about "bean counters" only being interested in the cost of something, not the value.

N'owt queer as folk.

wiggy 19th Aug 2019 13:29


Originally Posted by Echo Romeo (Post 10549132)
I absolutely despair with this abysmal Government, who I will never vote for again.

Fingers crossed it works out OK for you and yours.

Being emigrants to the EU like many other Brits we are on the other end of this whole issue..Most EU27 nations are looking at how the UK treats it's nationals in the UK with a view to reciprocity...whilst we have done the best we can to mitigate the effects of Brexit the likes of Ms Patel opening her mouth and screwing what were supposed to be HMGs own deadlines ( did she go off piste with that statement?) really doesn't help anybody.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-are-worthless

SaulGoodman 19th Aug 2019 13:36


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10549108)
You really, really don't seem to understand this thing about the Common Travel Area, do you? It predates both the Schengen Agreement and the EU by many, many decades. Ireland is not in Schengen. Ireland is in the Common Travel Area. They are very, very different. I don't think any Irish government would want to risk incurring the wrath of their people by doing anything that would put the future of the Common Travel Area at risk.

according to the report in the link from ORAC it is certainly not a given that the CTA can be maintained in case of a hard brexit. I may have puttttt a t too much. My sincere apologies. As you might imagine English is not my native language. But I am fluent in 3 languages.


let’s assume for a second there would be a border in the Irish sea and there would be a referendum in NI with the outcome for reunification of Ireland. I strongly doubt that the majority of the ROI are actually in favour of reunification. I did not get that inpression when I was working in Ireland.

ATNotts 19th Aug 2019 13:49


et’s assume for a second there would be a border in the Irish sea and there would be a referendum in NI with the outcome for reunification of Ireland. I strongly doubt that the majority of the ROI are actually in favour of reunification. I did not get that inpression when I was working in Ireland.
I think they probably fear, perhaps with justification, a terrorist uprising by the UDA or UVF, what whatever acronym protestant terrorists might come up with. The Irish Republic to a great extent didn't suffer the terrorism that Northern Ireland did during "the troubles" (the UK clearly doesn't have civil wars!), but the Protestants in Northern Ireland have been brought up on a diet of fear and hatred of Roman Catholics, and some would doubtless violently object to being absorbed into the Irish Republic. It must be remembered that it wasn't just the provisional IRA that murdered and maimed in Northern Ireland, and there are probably plenty of weapons still stashed away for use if required.

andrewn 19th Aug 2019 13:53


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10548884)
Hundreds of thousands of expats living abroad do exactly that; those British ghettos in Southern Spain, France and the like will be full of people who have moved out but not taken citizenship in their country of residence, and I suspect nearly as many who have made no efforts whatsoever to learn the language of their host country.

Sound familiar? Well it should, the same happens in the UK with some of out migrant population from EU countries. In the UK such behaviour is unacceptable, but of course when it's Brits aboard it's an affront to their freedom if anyone suggests they should take up citizenship and learn the lingo.

It's this kind of attitude that thoroughly pees me off about the UK, and UK attitude to foreigners migrating to UK, to earn a living and make a positive effect on the country.

I'd be right with you ATN were it not for the fact we've been "absorbing" net 250k per annum for the last 10+ years, and we've quite literally run out of space!

SaulGoodman 19th Aug 2019 13:57


Originally Posted by andrewn (Post 10549171)
I'd be right with you ATN were it not for the fact we've been "absorbing" net 250k per annum for the last 10+ years, and we've quite literally run out of space!

the EU “immigrants” are nett contributors. Is that such an issue?

andrewn 19th Aug 2019 14:06


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10549036)
" I was under the impression that Brexit was about controlling your borders."

We've never actually lost control of our borders.......but the mantra about "taking back control " included this myth.

That control was voluntarily ceded by first Blair and Brown and then just continued under Cameron and Osborne. It was a deliberate act to open the floodgates to all comers in order to stoke the economy. And it worked a treat, and we now have the lasting legacy of these gigantic logistics hubs the length and breadth of the country, all paying minimum wage and mostly employing dirt cheap imported labour. Whom all need somewhere to live, and then they have kids that need a school, then people get ill and need a Doctor. Then the locals decide "their" town no longer feels like it used to. Then Cameron let's us all decide whether we want to carry on as we are or not. We decide to course correct. End of, hopefully...

NutLoose 19th Aug 2019 14:17

Ahhh but Andrew, my car has never been cleaner, does this mean all the ripped out jet washes will be reinstalled around the country?


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