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SWBKCB 23rd Jul 2021 06:09


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11083395)
but isn’t that exactly what happens with shipping the world over, in the past a ship could be tied up for days upon arrival while the paperwork was processed, eventually the paperwork was sent ahead after the ship sailed thus allowing all the formalities were sorted allowing the ship to arrive, offload and upload cargo then depart with the paperwork again being forwarded on.

Most international traffic is now containerised, and it still happens with individual containers. Much of the animal and plant health processes are manual, yes even down to the use of the right colored pen. NI is a ferry ride away, not like NZ. The GB-NI trade is also dominated by consignments consisting of a large number of small items (e.g. supermarket deliveries) whereas from the likes of NZ it will be large quantities of a single product - paperwork is far simpler.

Ninthace 23rd Jul 2021 06:13


Originally Posted by SWBKCB (Post 11083517)
Most international traffic is now containerised, and it still happens with individual containers. Much of the animal and plant health processes are manual, yes even down to the use of the right colored pen. NI is a ferry ride away, not like NZ. The GB-NI trade is also dominated by consignments consisting of a large number of small items (e.g. supermarket deliveries) whereas from the likes of NZ it will be large quantities of a single product - paperwork is far simpler.

Mayhap Boris had better cut along to his nearest office supplies and invest in some packs of coloured pens sharpish, and perhaps hire more folk to push them.

SWBKCB 23rd Jul 2021 06:19

I think the number of vets available is an issue - guess where a lot of them came from?

I would imagine checks in NI would be down to NI Ag dept

ORAC 23rd Jul 2021 06:40


I think the number of vets available is an issue
….“Northern Ireland's Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs (DAERA) told the BBC a weekly average of 2460 documentary checks, 2200 identity checks and 170 physical checks were being carried out in the six week period from 21 April to 6 June.

If all the current grace periods expired, Northern Ireland's chief vet Mr Huey has said his team would need to conduct nearly as many checks on food as were being conducted in the whole of the EU. And he has only 12 vets. Huey said he needed 27 vets for the existing volume of checks.

He said if there was no agreement between the UK and EU on future simplification of the system after various grace periods, he would need up to 60 vets and that was "undoable"…..

wiggy 23rd Jul 2021 06:41


Originally Posted by SWBKCB (Post 11083521)
I think the number of vets available is an issue - guess where a lot of them came from?

Yup, the “vets problem” was and is a recurrent theme on Richard North’s EU referendum blog……

(North amongst other things worked in local government and food safety, including inspections early in his career so despite him being a Brexiter he’s always been quick to point out the flaws in this part of the government’s thinking, still experts, eh, who need them :bored:)

FWIW today’s and other recent days offerings

EU Referendum

SWBKCB 23rd Jul 2021 07:01


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11083528)
….“Northern Ireland's Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs (DAERA) told the BBC a weekly average of 2460 documentary checks, 2200 identity checks and 170 physical checks were being carried out in the six week period from 21 April to 6 June.

If all the current grace periods expired, Northern Ireland's chief vet Mr Huey has said his team would need to conduct nearly as many checks on food as were being conducted in the whole of the EU. And he has only 12 vets. Huey said he needed 27 vets for the existing volume of checks.

He said if there was no agreement between the UK and EU on future simplification of the system after various grace periods, he would need up to 60 vets and that was "undoable"…..

Vets are also needed on the GB end to approve the movement of goods to NI.

ORAC 23rd Jul 2021 07:27


Vets are also needed on the GB end to approve the movement of goods to NI.
M&S CEO said they alone now have 13 vets on filling in paperwork…

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-40675355.html

…Mr Norman said current “pointless” checks were threatening its business…

He called for a "common sense approach to enforcement focused on the ends, which is protecting consumers, not the bureaucratic means".


He said it was not the rules of the customs union, which mean products have to meet EU standards, but the “absolute pettifogging, Byzantine” enforcement and implementation of those rules that is stopping products getting through…..

He said. “Of the product that does get through, about 40% is delayed - which means you lose freshness and shelf life. We think we’ll be wasting about 1,000 tonnes of food a year because of border controls.”…..

M&S now employs 13 full-time vets who aren’t looking after animals but are just “ticking boxes”, he said. “Every piece of butter in every sandwich has to have a certificate.”

The solution is to find a method to “properly execute the rules” with the European Union but in a way that would “protect customers, not bureaucrats”.

"Enforcement should be focussed on the risk,” he said. “On something like butter or cream, there should be a monthly licence so we don’t have to produce a vet’s certificate every time.”

“If there’s a tiny issue on the documentation, instead of stopping the whole wagon, it should flow through - we should be obliged to correct the documentation retrospectively.”…

“You shouldn’t need vets in every factory approving every sandwich. That’s slightly ridiculous and very expensive and not in anyone’s interest”…….




ATNotts 23rd Jul 2021 07:33


…Mr Norman said current “pointless” checks were threatening its business…
The checks aren't pointless, they are a direct and totally foreseeable consequence of the UK leaving the EU!! Rather than whinging and whining about it, as any good business person should do, he and the board should be looking at mitigation, whether that be sourcing and packaging on the island of Ireland, or perhaps for some products within the EU and shipping directly into Ireland, whilst also supply their European business.

TURIN 23rd Jul 2021 07:33

I'm sure this sort of thing was discussed ad nauseum and labeled as project fear.
Funny that.

Ninthace 23rd Jul 2021 07:38

ORAC, why did you leave out this bit from the same article ?


The EU has said a temporary Swiss-style veterinary agreement for Northern Ireland, in which the UK continues to follow EU agri-food rules, could be a solution, but it has been rejected by the UK.

Mr Norman said he would support the solution but said he accepts it’s “not as simple as that” for the government. He has written to the government requesting a meeting.

“What I put forward to Lord Frost is a plan for a variety of individual things that even without a veterinary agreement, would get the product through.

“You shouldn’t need vets in every factory approving every sandwich. That’s slightly ridiculous and very expensive and not in anyone’s interest. In our range of sandwiches of 49, only about 25 are getting into the Republic of Ireland,” he said.
I may be wrong but this seems to imply HMG has a hand in the current mess

ORAC 23rd Jul 2021 07:39


he and the board should be looking at mitigation, whether that be sourcing and packaging on the island of Ireland, or perhaps for some products within the EU
Article 16…

”If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade, the Union or the United Kingdom may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures.…..

Big_D 23rd Jul 2021 07:40


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11083555)
M&S CEO said they alone now have 13 vets on filling in paperwork…

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-40675355.html

…Mr Norman said current “pointless” checks were threatening its business…

He called for a "common sense approach to enforcement focused on the ends, which is protecting consumers, not the bureaucratic means".


He said it was not the rules of the customs union, which mean products have to meet EU standards, but the “absolute pettifogging, Byzantine” enforcement and implementation of those rules that is stopping products getting through…..

He said. “Of the product that does get through, about 40% is delayed - which means you lose freshness and shelf life. We think we’ll be wasting about 1,000 tonnes of food a year because of border controls.”…..

M&S now employs 13 full-time vets who aren’t looking after animals but are just “ticking boxes”, he said. “Every piece of butter in every sandwich has to have a certificate.”

The solution is to find a method to “properly execute the rules” with the European Union but in a way that would “protect customers, not bureaucrats”.

"Enforcement should be focussed on the risk,” he said. “On something like butter or cream, there should be a monthly licence so we don’t have to produce a vet’s certificate every time.”

“If there’s a tiny issue on the documentation, instead of stopping the whole wagon, it should flow through - we should be obliged to correct the documentation retrospectively.”…

“You shouldn’t need vets in every factory approving every sandwich. That’s slightly ridiculous and very expensive and not in anyone’s interest”…….

Would anyone know if M&S and other retailers/stakeholders were consulted on the WA and the NIP? I'm sure they would have highlighted all the issues/problems to the Government of the day.

Unfortunately, as Lord Frost recently confirmed, all changes to the operating model can now be done within the remit of the WIP. The Irish Sea border must remain.

ORAC 23rd Jul 2021 07:45

Ninthace, the “temporary” measure proposed by the EU is the same old insistence that the UK sign up to dynamic alignment with the EU SPS regime under the jurisdiction of the EUCJ. Which, as it was one of the major UK red lines it will never do.

They term it “temporary” as it would only be binding until a suitable replacement process acceptable to both sides would replace it. but, of course, there would be no gain whatsoever in the EU ever agreeing to any replacement….

Ninthace 23rd Jul 2021 07:49

Quote:
he and the board should be looking at mitigation, whether that be sourcing and packaging on the island of Ireland, or perhaps for some products within the EU

Possibility of work in NI? EU offer of a work around rejected? Let’s face it, MS sandwiches are not really an Article 16 matter are they? The truth is HMG are hell bent on Article 16 and probably always were. It is to be hoped they have considered all the consequences.

ORAC 23rd Jul 2021 07:58

Empty shelves in NI supermarket shelves not an Article 16 matter? Look at the furore ove4 empty shelves in UK supermarket shelves now!

Consider it for those in NI as their own “pinggate”. it is, to the man in the street, the most obvious and visible sign of what they see as a betrayal.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...deal-k9h77w2ms

DUP threatens to stymie ‘unacceptable’ Brexit deal

l
Northern Ireland ministers will unilaterally suspend checks on goods crossing into the province from Britain if the prime minister signs up to an “unacceptable” new Brexit deal, the leader of the DUP has warned.

Sir Jeffrey Donaldson told The Times yesterday in his first newspaper interview since being elected head of the largest unionist party in Northern Ireland that the DUP was “not going to be in the business” of implementing the protocol if it continued to damage the province’s relationship with Britain.

He also warned the Irish government that his party could suspend key parts of the peace agreement if a compromise could not be reached.….

Donaldson said that a compromise was possible and called for the Northern Ireland executive to be included in the talks between London and Brussels. The party is still scarred, however, by what many see as Johnson’s betrayal of unionism by agreeing to the protocol.….

Senior government sources say that his approval will be critical in endorsing any compromise with Brussels. Donaldson said his party had set out seven tests to maintain the union that any deal Johnson and Lord Frost, the Brexit minister, agrees with Brussels must meet.

“Those seven tests are all based on commitments that the government has made itself,” he said. “If the government doesn’t live up to those commitments and if the outcome fails to remove the Irish Sea border then . . . there is no way we can work and co-operate on a North South basis when the Irish government and the EU are undermining our relationship with Great Britain.”…..

Avionker 23rd Jul 2021 08:01


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11083568)
Ninthace, the “temporary” measure proposed by the EU is the same old insistence that the UK sign up to dynamic alignment with the EU SPS regime under the jurisdiction of the EUCJ. Which, as it was one of the major UK red lines it will never do.

They term it “temporary” as it would only be binding until a suitable replacement process acceptable to both sides would replace it. but, of course, there would be no gain whatsoever in the EU ever agreeing to any replacement….

Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t a border in the Irish Sea a “major red line”?





papabravowhiskey 23rd Jul 2021 08:12

The DUP never signed up to the GFA and seem quite happy to do anything that they can to undermine the GFA, including sabotaging the NIP. They have absolutely no interest in making the NIP work.

SWBKCB 23rd Jul 2021 08:30

To be fair to the CEO of M&S, they only had four and a half years to prepare for the UK leaving the EU - none of the processes affecting them are new and are laid out in black and white (even the use of coloured pens) in long standing EU regulations.

The GFA recognised that NI is unique and the same spirit of compromise is needed to sort out the NIP - whats George Mitchell up to nowadays?

wiggy 23rd Jul 2021 08:59


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11083559)
The checks aren't pointless, they are a direct and totally foreseeable consequence of the UK leaving the EU!! Rather than whinging and whining about it, as any good business person should do, he and the board should be looking at mitigation, whether that be sourcing and packaging on the island of Ireland, or perhaps for some products within the EU and shipping directly into Ireland, whilst also supply their European business.

From Richard North, from way way back in 2018…


This may be of interest


Both sides, HMG and the EU get a kicking….


ORAC 23rd Jul 2021 09:04


Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t a border in the Irish Sea a “major red line”?

Which is the reason behind the present UK paper and, I would predict, the government invoking A16 and amending many if the current procedures until the protocol itself will lapse unless backed by 40% of the Unionist MLAs (article 18(6).

Thats if it lasts that long of course (article 13(8)


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