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Krystal n chips 4th Jul 2021 09:23

" The good news is that the industry is likely to wake up and smell the coffee."

Mr Fraser, you'll excuse me for saying the fragrance that springs more readily to mind isn't coffee.

That clip is but one of many from the same source, and very informative they are, regarding the driver shortage now gaining prominence and, why.

As I've said before, my neighbour is an HGV driver, I know, never destined to be a denizen of JB Wisteria Avenue surrounded by neighbours who are at the top of their profession, but us lesser mortals have to reside somewhere, and he has long stated what is now emerging. Likewise with three friends, also drivers.

The consistency in all their complaints is the stress induced by unrealistic times determined by "managers", the excessive legislation, the abysmal standards of facilities for drivers, and, finally, the wages. Strangely, they agree wages are not the most prominent issue. The status of the driver, as in "only a driver", also gets mentioned..a lot.

alicopter 4th Jul 2021 10:26


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 11072923)
" The good news is that the industry is likely to wake up and smell the coffee."

Mr Fraser, you'll excuse me for saying the fragrance that springs more readily to mind isn't coffee.

That clip is but one of many from the same source, and very informative they are, regarding the driver shortage now gaining prominence and, why.

As I've said before, my neighbour is an HGV driver, I know, never destined to be a denizen of JB Wisteria Avenue surrounded by neighbours who are at the top of their profession, but us lesser mortals have to reside somewhere, and he has long stated what is now emerging. Likewise with three friends, also drivers.

The consistency in all their complaints is the stress induced by unrealistic times determined by "managers", the excessive legislation, the abysmal standards of facilities for drivers, and, finally, the wages. Strangely, they agree wages are not the most prominent issue. The status of the driver, as in "only a driver", also gets mentioned..a lot.

I think the recruitment of a multitude of "new" lorry drivers will not solve the logistics problem but will make it worse!!!. Ok, pay drivers more, they deserve it, but what about the price of the goods they deliver? Will the customer pay the difference or the employer reduces his benefits? And what about the price of new insurance policies? How many more accidents and death on the road? Two of the staff of the Care Agency looking after my demented uncle are leaving their post next week and no replacement has been found yet. One of them is a very good carer and will be missed but should make a good HGV driver. The other one I have observed for months and I would not let him drive my lawnmower, You should see him putting antifungal spray between an 88 years old's toes, you feel like crying and I am not mentioning his parking skills in a very quiet residential road.... This is border "criminal" and I am sure not a rare situation. And this is just for the transport side, the farming community is border hysteric, so are the caring agencies. Project fear? Just wait.

Krystal n chips 4th Jul 2021 10:53

"And this is just for the transport side, the farming community is border hysteric, so are the caring agencies. Project fear? Just wait."

I would concur with the above, and, for that matter, the rest of your post completely. There is, apparently, some form of "fast track" training scheme for drivers which trains them to pass the test and get the licence. The not so little matter of gaining experience thereafter is where matters become problematic and, as you say, potentially dangerous.

Obviously, "Project Fear " was always completely unfounded, no sector would experience shortages as there were more than enough British workers available to fill the vacancies when EU citizens would be deterred from working in the UK. The fact this was clearly never going to be the reality was always happily ignored by those intent on "taking back control ! " "securing our borders !" and that long perpetuated urban myth about "regaining our sovereignty! "...which we'd never actually lost in the first place.

cafesolo 4th Jul 2021 17:04

K & C: "fast track training scheme" to teach drivers to pass the test & get the licence. Yes,they are 50 years old or more. I gained my Class one licence at such a school in 1979. As soon as I came to exercise that licence, I realized how little I knew. The only solution that comes to mind is for novice licence holders to be accompanied by an experienced driver who will save him from expensive errors. Do you see hauliers paying TWO wages to send out one truck? I don't. Cafesolo.

Krystal n chips 4th Jul 2021 17:18

And if it's not a minor detail of having personnel available, there's always the famed "negotiation " skills of the UK's representatives to contend with.

Presumably this tactic is based on the principle of negotiating from a position of strength, the UK jolly well won after all !, as perceived by Boris and the two stalwarts mentioned.

UK-EU relations deteriorate again after ‘strange’ David Frost remarks | Brexit | The Guardian

occasional 4th Jul 2021 18:18


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11071549)
As I previously linked, that includes the both being compatible with the ePassport gates at all major UK airports.

If my attempts to read my EU QR code are anything to go by, this looks like a project that is doomed to failure.

charliegolf 4th Jul 2021 22:32


Originally Posted by cafesolo (Post 11073134)
K & C: "fast track training scheme" to teach drivers to pass the test & get the licence. Yes,they are 50 years old or more. I gained my Class one licence at such a school in 1979. As soon as I came to exercise that licence, I realized how little I knew. The only solution that comes to mind is for novice licence holders to be accompanied by an experienced driver who will save him from expensive errors. Do you see hauliers paying TWO wages to send out one truck? I don't. Cafesolo.

So did the European drivers have a stint of 2-up driving before they came here then? Or were they just trained and let loose? How has the industry ever managed this problem?

CG

Torquetalk 5th Jul 2021 06:50

Wow, who’d a thought it? The return of Lorry Driver’s Mate.

ATNotts 5th Jul 2021 08:25


Originally Posted by charliegolf (Post 11073272)
So did the European drivers have a stint of 2-up driving before they came here then? Or were they just trained and let loose? How has the industry ever managed this problem?

CG

In fairly recent years 2nd drivers have not been un uncommon sight of Eastern European trucks; back in the 1970s and 1980s the CSAD trucks all used to be double manned, but the 2nd guy was (allegedly) the communist party member there to ensure the driver didn't stray from the straight and narrow!

Personally the idea of some 17 year old oik passing his or her car test then going straight for their LGV Class 1 and be behind the wheel of a 40 tonne missile doesn't exactly fill me with joy; but then neither does the idea of UK road haulage industry relying on 60+ year old drivers in charge of the same missile, but that is the current direction of travel. With youngsters wanting to spend nights curled up in their nice warm bed, rather than in the sleeper cab it's going to be a hard sell getting 20-somethings up for long distance trucking any time soon and I don't believe it'll be long before the UK government is forced into something akin to a hairpin bend, if not a full U-turn on free(er) movement of labour.

Ninthace 5th Jul 2021 08:48


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11073428)
In fairly recent years 2nd drivers have not been un uncommon sight of Eastern European trucks; back in the 1970s and 1980s the CSAD trucks all used to be double manned, but the 2nd guy was (allegedly) the communist party member there to ensure the driver didn't stray from the straight and narrow!

Personally the idea of some 17 year old oik passing his or her car test then going straight for their LGV Class 1 and be behind the wheel of a 40 tonne missile doesn't exactly fill me with joy; but then neither does the idea of UK road haulage industry relying on 60+ year old drivers in charge of the same missile, but that is the current direction of travel. With youngsters wanting to spend nights curled up in their nice warm bed, rather than in the sleeper cab it's going to be a hard sell getting 20-somethings up for long distance trucking any time soon and I don't believe it'll be long before the UK government is forced into something akin to a hairpin bend, if not a full U-turn on free(er) movement of labour.

We already have enough trouble round here with 17 year old oiks in charge of huge tractors and trailers flying round our village streets and the surrounding lanes!

ORAC 5th Jul 2021 09:14

ATNotts,

Whereas it will be OK for newly qualified Rumanian drivers with minimal English and no experience in driving on the left to be imported and put on the road?


Personally the idea of some 17 year old oik passing his or her car test then going straight for their LGV Class 1 and be behind the wheel of a 40 tonne missile doesn't exactly fill me with joy
You do realise the length of the army driving school training is 12 weeks and most recruits are aged around 18-19?

https://theloadstar.com/uk-driver-sh...ver-the-goods/


Cornish Jack 5th Jul 2021 09:48

You do realise the length of the army driving school training is 12 weeks and most recruits are aged around 18-19?

The length of the basic University 'course' is, I believe, 3 years, ... as a yardstick for maturity and competent decision-making :hmm:

LowNSlow 5th Jul 2021 09:58

CJ and the length of a degree course is relevant how? Ah, I see, you are saying that people who graduate are automatically mature and capable of competent decision-making.

That's one of the funniest things you've ever written and I speak as the parent of 3 grads who have subsequently gone on to successful careers. Fully mature individuals after graduating they weren't!!

alfaman 5th Jul 2021 10:04


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11073443)
We already have enough trouble round here with 17 year old oiks in charge of huge tractors and trailers flying round our village streets and the surrounding lanes!

In that case, they may be 16, if that helps ;)

alfaman 5th Jul 2021 10:10


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11073452)
ATNotts,

Whereas it will be OK for newly qualified Rumanian drivers with minimal English and no experience in driving on the left to be imported and put on the road?

You do realise the length of the army driving school training is 12 weeks and most recruits are aged around 18-19?

https://theloadstar.com/uk-driver-sh...ver-the-goods/

Something wrong with either your maths or your knowledge - https://apply.army.mod.uk/roles/roya...%20%2Btraining -

ORAC 5th Jul 2021 10:30

Alfaman,

Initial training is 12 weeks. 17 year olds can train on HGVs. The second link below states that the trading includes cats C and C+E

(We used to send non-drivers posted to RAF Staxton Wold down the road to Leconfield to get their driving licence. It was a one week course, nobody ever failed).

https://apply.army.mod.uk/roles/roya...oyal-engineers

https://british-army.career-inspirat...after-training


At the Defence School of Transport Leconfield is where you will do your phase 2 training, you will firstly be loaded onto the 3 week combat logistician course. Then move on to the main part of your training. You will be part of 110 sqn, you'll be loaded onto your driver training which will consist of doing your cat B (car), cat c and c+e (HGV and trailer). Once you've competed these and your hazard awareness course, you will move on to familiarisation training which will be your land rover, 6 ton Support Vehicle and 9 ton Support Vehicle. You'll learn how to drive then, strap down loads and maintain them…..

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/military-drivers

Cornish Jack 5th Jul 2021 10:37

... It was a one eeek course,
Unintentional humour or the spoil chicken playing up again?

Cornish Jack 5th Jul 2021 10:46

LowNSlow - I hope that your post was intentionally ironic , or, like mine, (mea culpa) sarcastic. As a devotee of the 'lowest form of wit', I tend to over-indulge in such - a product of mental laziness.:sad:

alfaman 5th Jul 2021 10:47


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11073488)
Alfaman,

Initial training is 12 weeks. 17 year olds can train on HGVs. The second link below states that the trading includes cats C and C+E

(We used to send non-drivers posted to RAF Staxton Wold down the road to Leconfield to get their driving licence. It was a one week course, nobody ever failed).

https://apply.army.mod.uk/roles/roya...oyal-engineers

https://british-army.career-inspirat...after-training


At the Defence School of Transport Leconfield is where you will do your phase 2 training, you will firstly be loaded onto the 3 week combat logistician course. Then move on to the main part of your training. You will be part of 110 sqn, you'll be loaded onto your driver training which will consist of doing your cat B (car), cat c and c+e (HGV and trailer). Once you've competed these and your hazard awareness course, you will move on to familiarisation training which will be your land rover, 6 ton Support Vehicle and 9 ton Support Vehicle. You'll learn how to drive then, strap down loads and maintain them…..

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/military-drivers

So you don't include the final phase then - cherry picking modules from a package to suit your argument.
Step 3
You will continue at the Defence School of Transport to complete your 25-day Class 3 Driver course. This will include off road driving, driving different vehicles, Hazmat and basic vehicle maintenance. After this, you will begin an apprenticeship in Driving Goods Vehicles which you will completed alongside your Class 2 Driver course. This takes place in your unit and will take 12-18 months to complete.

What you "used to do" doesn't really matter, does it, it's history. A good friend of mine is actively involved in Army vehicle training right now - he'd argue, & I'd agree, you don't finish learning until your final drive, & certainly not in 12 weeks.

charliegolf 5th Jul 2021 13:00

So, exactly when do the worry-worts think that an appropriately licensed HGV driver might be sent out on the road alone*?

*In the very manner that virtually every HGV Class 1 is operated in UK.

CG


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