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NutLoose 26th Jun 2021 15:45

But thatís assuming both sides will play ball, something that is blatantly not happening, itís ok the U.K. wanting movement, but it takes two to tango.

alicopter 26th Jun 2021 16:07


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11068619)
alicopter; that is a fine thing you are doing offering the properties, its a pity your generosity isn't being taken up. It's also refreshing to hear that people are trying to make the immigrants' lives more bearable while they wait for their asylum cases to be reviewed. As you say the country of birth can be a major blessing. I completely agree that the problem of immigration won't be solved until the societies an economies of the home countries are sufficiently stable to allow all their populations a decent life in their own lands and cultures. I don't see this happening any time soon and it is indeed a ticking time bomb for the industrialised countries of the world.

@LowNSlow The reasons for not being "interesting" location for my otherwise generous offer is that I am too "isolated". The nearest shop is at 7 kms from the house and there are only three houses in the hamlet with "old fashioned" neighbours (if you see what I mean, xenophobs, racists, even me, whom they have known for 64 years, for them, I am still the Foreigner!!!) Not having a car is apparently a handicap... (?) and no bus service for miles around. Lots of people even with GPS do not find me sometimes, so Social Services/ Associations Caritatives in charge of Immigration not impressed. Pity as families would be safe, could live off the huge gardens and out of the way from City troubles... Never mind, since I will be permanently on site in a couple of days, I will be available to help in other ways.

Ninthace 26th Jun 2021 16:26


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11068695)
What really gets me is the fact that no one had done this before, an agreement was drawn up and agreed with absolutely no idea if and how it would work, and then when parts of it are found to have teething problems a system appears to not be put in place to allow areas to be tweaked as and when required. The initial agreement should have been more fluid allowing for alterations. The NI border is a classic area that needs adjusting.

As for picking up refugees in the channel, they should be dropped off back in the EU, they are not fleeing persecution in the EU.

Think about that last sentence then tell us how it is to be done? It requires diplomatic clearance for an HM vessel to enter the territorial waters of another country, except for innocent passage, let alone start disembarking passengers without permission.

alicopter 26th Jun 2021 16:30


Originally Posted by Two's in (Post 11068671)
The point most of you here seem determined to miss is there are better ways to prevent an influx of refugees and illegal immigrants than picking them out of boats mid-channel. If the useless and idle politicians spent a few minutes trying to address the core issues in places like Syria and Libya, and perhaps offered meaningful foreign aid (not just to BAE Systems best customers) so those hell-holes were not somewhere you had to flee, you might ease the problem at source. I realize on an aviation themed website complex issues like root cause analysis are frowned upon, but for Christ's sake, what would it take in real terms for the EU (and now little Britain) to make staying home with friends, culture and family a better option than being raped, murdered and fleeced by human traffickers?

Talk about missing the fu*king point.

Exactly. No good "exporting" The Crown or Downton Abbey or Love Island to the middle of war torn or famined countries with mobile phones and computers and act towards them as they can "only dream of that fun living". And I am not even talking of what we steal or have stolen from them for many years!!! We are led by donkeys, lets get rid of them.

NutLoose 26th Jun 2021 17:12


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11068752)
Think about that last sentence then tell us how it is to be done? It requires diplomatic clearance for an HM vessel to enter the territorial waters of another country, except for innocent passage, let alone start disembarking passengers without permission.

Deliver them straight onto a ferry, or eurotunnel

Denti 26th Jun 2021 17:25


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11068773)
Deliver them straight onto a ferry, or eurotunnel

Again, they would be turned back immediately again. Before BREXIT there was actually an instrument for that, the Dublin Agreement. But of course the UK is no longer part of that, as it left the EU after all. Therefore UN conventions are the relevant international law, and that means whenever any refugee reaches the UK it is upon the UK to deal with them, especially if they apply for asylum.

NutLoose 26th Jun 2021 18:01


Originally Posted by Denti (Post 11068778)
Again, they would be turned back immediately again. Before BREXIT there was actually an instrument for that, the Dublin Agreement. But of course the UK is no longer part of that, as it left the EU after all. Therefore UN conventions are the relevant international law, and that means whenever any refugee reaches the UK it is upon the UK to deal with them, especially if they apply for asylum.

But if you have customs and hence the border on dry land then surely if you deliver them to the other side they are not officially in the U.K.

Ninthace 26th Jun 2021 18:40


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11068773)
Deliver them straight onto a ferry, or eurotunnel

And how is that going to work pray? Please will you get on this ferry./train and please will you get off at the other end and please will you not make a fuss while you are travelling and please be good when the civilian staff disembark you. No officials could accompany them, see previous entry on diplomatic clearance etc.

If you think about it, it would be no different than if the French just put them on the trains and ferries and sent them over that way. What would the UK response be?

No the answer to me is simple Put your xenophobia and racial prejudice on the back burner. The fact is, with an aging population, the UK needs migrant labour for its economy to survive, just look at the current labour shortages.in areas such as social care, hospitality, agriculture and haulage to name but a few, mostly caused by Brexit. Let them in, give them visas. let them work, let them pay taxes and use the tax revenue to cover the costs of immigration. Insist on a qualification period before benefits will be paid if it helps to allay your prejudices.
If they follow the usual migrant pattern, a significant percentage will return home once they have made their pile so we will not have to care for them in their old age or perhaps pay them a pension.

alicopter 26th Jun 2021 19:13


Originally Posted by Ninthace (Post 11068814)
And how is that going to work pray? Please will you get on this ferry./train and please will you get off at the other end and please will you not make a fuss while you are travelling and please be good when the civilian staff disembark you. No officials could accompany them, see previous entry on diplomatic clearance etc.

If you think about it, it would be no different than if the French just put them on the trains and ferries and sent them over that way. What would the UK response be?

No the answer to me is simple Put your xenophobia and racial prejudice on the back burner. The fact is, with an aging population, the UK needs migrant labour for its economy to survive, just look at the current labour shortages.in areas such as social care, hospitality, agriculture and haulage to name but a few, mostly caused by Brexit. Let them in, give them visas. let them work, let them pay taxes and use the tax revenue to cover the costs of immigration. Insist on a qualification period before benefits will be paid if it helps to allay your prejudices.
If they follow the usual migrant pattern, a significant percentage will return home once they have made their pile so we will not have to care for them in their old age or perhaps pay them a pension.

@Ninthace thank you. All these people painting immigrants with the same brush of hatred and fear should get to know some of them... The VAST majority of them are decent, nice and caring people trying hard to build a future for themselves and their famillies. Their personnal path is often off the beaten tracks and their resilience to pain and persecution makes them armed for most situations and they are a positive addition to any work team anywhere. My own maternal grand-father was a very poor Italian carpenter and the French, after the war employed millions of this cheap but remarkably good workforce, like him and his wife and kids. He tried his luck in France when being Italian, Portuguese, Spanish or Arab meant conditions were execrable for most of these exploited hard working people. After two generations, the result, forget (if you can stomach it) the hard time post war French idiots put them through, we are a richer, more diversified, healthier, fairer (but not quite "there") population . There is room for every single person on this planet, and if it feels a bit crowded in places, just create similar conditions as yours somewhere else and share what is NOT in any way rightfully yours by birth or by land. Like it or not.

LowNSlow 27th Jun 2021 13:00

alicopter; re your post 11176, in the little village I come from a friend's mum was known as "June the Evacuee" until the day she died 10 years ago. She had been a teen wartime evacuee who fell in love with a local lad and never went back to her London birthplace.


Torquetalk 27th Jun 2021 19:24


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11068619)
the majority of governments around the world seem to have difficulty with immigration which isn't really surprising given the complexity of the problem. Are open borders a solution? I don't think so. Are closed borders a solution? Very much not.
My ideal would be a system that welcomes immigrants that expect to join the society they are entering and assimilate themselves into the host culture without losing their roots. Immigrants that will contribute to that society both through work and cultural contributions. However, this system should also have the ability to bar entry to people who do not have the good of the destination society at heart.
I wouldn't like to be the person who had to design and implement that system!!

Not really much space to put a thin piece of paper between us there. In fact, despite your reservations, I‘d trust you to do a better job than the Home Sec!

Say again s l o w l y 28th Jun 2021 13:41


Originally Posted by Denti (Post 11068778)
Again, they would be turned back immediately again. Before BREXIT there was actually an instrument for that, the Dublin Agreement. But of course the UK is no longer part of that, as it left the EU after all. Therefore UN conventions are the relevant international law, and that means whenever any refugee reaches the UK it is upon the UK to deal with them, especially if they apply for asylum.

Don't you be bringing those inconvenient facts to this dagnabbit. It upsets those who froth at the mouth every-time "immigration" is mentioned and the carpet is already completely sodden.

NutLoose 28th Jun 2021 13:54

WTF I am now being called a racist because I am pointng out these people should have claimed asylum at the first country they arrived in free from persecution or as we are no longer part of it, the EU.
I have nothing against immigration, it's a good thing, but you need to have the right sort of imigrants such as those qualified with trades and jobs, otherwise you end up with a state crippled by the burden of supporting the unskilled. What I do have a problem with is illegal immigrants who should have claimed asylum in the countries where they were not under the threat of persecution.

I for one could never understand pre Brexit the haste to rush here, all they simply had to do was claim asylum in the likes of Germany etc and when accepted and given citizenship legally move here as part of the open borders.

SaulGoodman 28th Jun 2021 14:08


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 11069799)

I for one could never understand pre Brexit the haste to rush here, all they simply had to do was claim asylum in the likes of Germany etc and when accepted and given citizenship legally move here as part of the open borders.

I am not calling you a racist, I am calling you ill-informed if that makes you feel better. By far the largest group of illegal immigrants are not coming to the UK! Again, many EU countries take more immigrants per capita than the UK does. For whatever reason your idea that they all come to the UK is completely nonsense! Absolute bollocks!

again, by far most refugees stay in neighboring countries. Libanon, Turkey just to name a few.

Another different issue, but fully down to your politics, is that is being made easy to live in the UK illegally. Much easier than in most EU countries.

Ninthace 28th Jun 2021 15:11

I wonder if the outcry about the cross-channel immigrants would be quite as robust if they were obviouly white, members of the French, German, Dutch and Belgian middle classes? Be honest!
I used to live in France and was sitting in my local cafe listening to the "I'm not racist but......." moaning about immigrants from the villagers. I chipped in pointing out I was an immigrant, and an economic one to boot, only to be told quite firmly that I wasn't - I was un Anglais. Apparently we are different. Mind you, that was pre-Brexit.

ATNotts 28th Jun 2021 16:24


Originally Posted by SaulGoodman (Post 11069809)
I am not calling you a racist, I am calling you ill-informed if that makes you feel better. By far the largest group of illegal immigrants are not coming to the UK! Again, many EU countries take more immigrants per capita than the UK does. For whatever reason your idea that they all come to the UK is completely nonsense! Absolute bollocks!

If you take a look (as I suspect you do) at the UK print media you will find that the overwhelming number are right wing, and to some extent racist / xenophobic in their editorial stance. It also appears that that very racism / xenophobia isn't related to colour or religion, hard working people from Poland, Slovakia, Romania, the Baltic states are all tarred with the same brush by these horrid twisted rags. In particular I'm fingering The Daily Express, Daily Mail, Sun and Daily Star, though papers that should know better, in particular the Daily Telegraph are nearly as bad, though they do it in a more subtle less "shouty" way.

For xenophobia in action I suspect you'll have to look no further than those tabloid rags tomorrow when they'll be "fighting WW2" all over again disguised as build up to a football match. Does "Bild" play the same petty nationalist game? I rarely bother looking at their online offering.

LowNSlow 28th Jun 2021 17:13

There are plenty of people who do the "open mouth, change foot" routine!

Krystal n chips 28th Jun 2021 17:33


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11069857)
If you take a look (as I suspect you do) at the UK print media you will find that the overwhelming number are right wing, and to some extent racist / xenophobic in their editorial stance. It also appears that that very racism / xenophobia isn't related to colour or religion, hard working people from Poland, Slovakia, Romania, the Baltic states are all tarred with the same brush by these horrid twisted rags. In particular I'm fingering The Daily Express, Daily Mail, Sun and Daily Star, though papers that should know better, in particular the Daily Telegraph are nearly as bad, though they do it in a more subtle less "shouty" way.

For xenophobia in action I suspect you'll have to look no further than those tabloid rags tomorrow when they'll be "fighting WW2" all over again disguised as build up to a football match. Does "Bild" play the same petty nationalist game? I rarely bother looking at their online offering.

That's inevitable It will be the headlines, should Ingurlund actually win, on Wednesday that will be the more vomit inducing.

ATNotts 28th Jun 2021 17:54


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11069878)
There are plenty of people who do the "open mouth, change foot" routine!

About on the same level as Johnson's 'letterboxes and bank robbers' comments.

Mr Mac 28th Jun 2021 19:36


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11069878)
There are plenty of people who do the "open mouth, change foot" routine!

Low n Slow
This may surprise you but having spent a good deal of time in Africa I would have to say to a degree I would have to agree with his comments through personnel observation. I would prerequisite this with the comment that the same could be said about a sub section of UK / Americas / and some parts of European society as well, again observed through living in those places. Less of an issue in the Far East.

Cheers
Mr Mac


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