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Big_D 14th Jun 2021 12:12


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11061894)
But the UK is complying with it.

What you, and the EU, are actually complaining about is the UK applying the Articles they ensured it contained just to cover the situation which has arisen.

If the EU were happy for them to be included they can’t complain if the UK then applies them.

Exactly, I'm not sure what all the fuss is all about.

Should de Pfeffel's stooges invoke A16, then the case will be referred to the ECJ which we are subject to.

I'm not sure what we are trying to achieve given that there are strict rules regarding the import of chilled products into NI. The grace period is due to expire.

Krystal n chips 14th Jun 2021 12:58


Originally Posted by Fitter2 (Post 11061840)
Sadly, the 'EU can do no wrong' brigade are impervious to facts. No doubt quoting Article 16.1 and Appendix 7 will be met with the usual fingers in ears, 'Nyah nyah I can't hear you' response. KnC's typical photoshop post is a prime example.

For Macron to demand the UK to behave 'calmly, professionally' after his own megaphone diplomacy would be amusing if the affair was not so serious. For once it would appear our diplomats read the protocol more carefully than the EU side.

I see that photoshop post, if only it had happened, as being a metaphor for the actions of Boris, and this Gov't / Brexit, on the UK.

The " I got Brexit done ! " electioneering slogan will be around for a very long time in Boris's vocabulary and it's impossible to speculate how often it will be uttered at the next GE. That, and this Gov't has an established record of acting unlawfully and ignoring legalities as and when it feels like. For all the diplomatic talk, the subliminal narrative remains the same. The UK "beat" the EU so the EU will do as the UK demands.NI was more or less an afterthought in the "deal" and now Boris is faced with how to bluster his way out of the impasse.

What we don't know is what influence President Biden has brought bear and if the buffoon has the political acumen to act on any advice.

Lets be clear here. For this Gov't, and Boris, leaving aside their repressive policies, the sole intent is long term self perpetuity and nothing will be allowed to impede or negate this objective.

Widger 14th Jun 2021 12:59

Lets make no bones about it. The bodies of the EU, namely the Commission and the Parliament see this as an opportunity to punish the UK for daring to exit from the EU. All laws are open to interpretation, that is why we have some very rich lawyers and in this case, some, including the French President are taking a very strong interpretation. Some of this is to bolster his own reputation against the rise of Le Pen.

Quite often in European law, the Articles are focussed on, in detriment to the Recitals, which set out the ambition and reason for the law in the first place. The approach of many EU nation's to law, is borne of the Napoleonic code and very black and white, whereas Civil law in the UK is based what is reasonable (to the man on the Clapham Omnibus). It is therefore reasonable to expect that the Recitals, extracted below be applied in this case


The Union and the United Kingdom, HAVING REGARD to the historic ties and enduring nature of the bilateral relationship between Ireland and the United Kingdom,
RECALLING that the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the Union presents a significant and unique challenge to the island of Ireland, and reaffirming that the achievements, benefits and commitments of the peace process will remain of paramount importance to peace, stability and reconciliation there,
RECOGNISING that it is necessary to address the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland through a unique solution in order to ensure the orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the Union,
AFFIRMING that the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement of 10 April 1998 between the Government of the United Kingdom, the Government of Ireland and the other participants in the multi-party negotiations (the ‘1998 Agreement’), which is annexed to the British-Irish Agreement of the same date (the ‘British-Irish Agreement’), including its subsequent implementation agreements and arrangements, should be protected in all its parts, RECOGNISING that cooperation between Northern Ireland and Ireland is a central part of the 1998 Agreement and is essential for achieving reconciliation and the normalisation of relationships on the island of Ireland, and recalling the roles, functions and safeguards of the Northern Ireland Executive, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the North-South Ministerial Council (including cross-community provisions), as set out in the 1998 Agreement, NOTING that Union law has provided a supporting framework for the provisions on Rights, Safeguards and Equality of Opportunity of the 1998 Agreement,
RECOGNISING that Irish citizens in Northern Ireland, by virtue of their Union citizenship, will continue to enjoy, exercise and have access to rights, opportunities and benefits, and that this Protocol should respect and be without prejudice to the rights, opportunities and identity that come with citizenship of the Union for the people of Northern Ireland who choose to assert their right to Irish citizenship, as defined in Annex 2 of the British-Irish Agreement ‘Declaration on the Provisions of Paragraph (vi) of Article 1 in Relation to Citizenship’,
EMPHASISING that in order to ensure democratic legitimacy, there should be a process to ensure democratic consent in Northern Ireland to the application of Union law under this Protocol,
RECALLING the commitment of the United Kingdom to protect North-South cooperation and its guarantee of avoiding a hard border, including any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls,
NOTING that nothing in this Protocol prevents the United Kingdom from ensuring unfettered market access for goods moving from Northern Ireland to the rest of the United Kingdom's internal market
RECALLING that the United Kingdom remains committed to protecting and supporting continued North-South and East-West cooperation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks for cooperation, including the continued operation of the North-South implementation bodies,
ACKNOWLEDGING the need for this Protocol to be implemented so as to maintain the necessary conditions for continued North-South cooperation, including for possible new arrangements in accordance with the 1998 Agreement,
RECALLING the Union's and the United Kingdom's commitments to the North South PEACE and INTERREG funding programmes under the current multi-annual financial framework and to the maintaining of the current funding proportions for the future programme,
AFFIRMING the commitment of the United Kingdom to facilitate the efficient and timely transit through its territory of goods moving from Ireland to another Member State or to a third country, and vice versa,
DETERMINED that the application of this Protocol should impact as little as possible on the everyday life of communities in both Ireland and Northern Ireland,
UNDERLINING their firm commitment to no customs and regulatory checks or controls and related physical infrastructure at the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland,
RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom and will benefit from participation in the United Kingdom's independent trade policy,
HAVING REGARD to the importance of maintaining the integral place of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom’s internal market,

ATNotts 14th Jun 2021 14:12


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11061803)
ATNotts so we are supposed to walk around, head bowed, to the might of the EU for the rest of time? Get a grip man, do all countries smaller that the EU do that? No they don't, take Switzerland for example.

Switzerland is a totally different kettle of fish; its government's attitude towards the EU is diametrically opposed to that of the UK government. The Swiss wish to cooperate with the EU, and be close to it, without being in it. The current UK government wants, nay believes, that it is all powerful and doesn't want to negotiate with the EU, but to draw red lines and refuse to cooperate with any aspect of the EU, and hence we have the mess into which the UK has got itself with Northern Ireland, not to mention the mess it has created for the fishing community and the agriculture and food processing industries. It would have be comparatively simple to agree to work with the EU in some areas (EASA, Euratom, Erasmus farming, fisheries and food standards to name but a few) but no, the UK wanted nothing to do with the EU and its institutions preferring to plough its own furrow as though it was still an imperial power that could make deals with subservient third countries.

Since, as Emily Thornbury pointed out quite correctly on the Marr show yesterday, the UK isn't about to walk back into the EU any time soon because it knows it has lost all the UK rebates, opt outs and the like, and would have to sign up to the single currency and Schengen as a condition of re-joining, it will simply have to start cooperating in a pragmatic manner with the EU instead trying to confront the EU battleship with the UK coastal patrol vessel. The EU and UK is not, and will never be a partnership of equals now we're outside; in the same way that any trade deal with the USA won't be an equal partnership. If EU membership isn't likely in the next 10-20 years, then a more likely way forward would be EEA membership which somewhere along the line a future, less extremist government will almost undoubtedly look to achieve.

alicopter 14th Jun 2021 14:54


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11061965)
Switzerland is a totally different kettle of fish; its government's attitude towards the EU is diametrically opposed to that of the UK government. The Swiss wish to cooperate with the EU, and be close to it, without being in it. The current UK government wants, nay believes, that it is all powerful and doesn't want to negotiate with the EU, but to draw red lines and refuse to cooperate with any aspect of the EU, and hence we have the mess into which the UK has got itself with Northern Ireland, not to mention the mess it has created for the fishing community and the agriculture and food processing industries. It would have be comparatively simple to agree to work with the EU in some areas (EASA, Euratom, Erasmus farming, fisheries and food standards to name but a few) but no, the UK wanted nothing to do with the EU and its institutions preferring to plough its own furrow as though it was still an imperial power that could make deals with subservient third countries.

Since, as Emily Thornbury pointed out quite correctly on the Marr show yesterday, the UK isn't about to walk back into the EU any time soon because it knows it has lost all the UK rebates, opt outs and the like, and would have to sign up to the single currency and Schengen as a condition of re-joining, it will simply have to start cooperating in a pragmatic manner with the EU instead trying to confront the EU battleship with the UK coastal patrol vessel. The EU and UK is not, and will never be a partnership of equals now we're outside; in the same way that any trade deal with the USA won't be an equal partnership. If EU membership isn't likely in the next 10-20 years, then a more likely way forward would be EEA membership which somewhere along the line a future, less extremist government will almost undoubtedly look to achieve.

When I saw the very first clip of the very first EU/UK meeting at the start of the Brexit negotiations I remember telling my wife -"they are screwed!!!" The body language, the looks and the obvious complacency the british team displayed was a good omen of how it would end. The thin notepad Davies was carrying gave an accurate idea of what was going on and how prepared they were... Was their heads as empty as their hands? Even now I found Bojo hard to watch at the G7 summit. How such a man made it to London Mayor after all the known poor performances in all his previous jobs, let alone at being elected Prime Minister I'll never understand. It pains me to watch him perform and this country I used to love is going down to Turkey, Hungary, Russia and Trumpland level. How sad.

Cornish Jack 14th Jun 2021 14:57

Slightly belated return to the party, but ORAC, Fitter 2 , FED et al seem to have some sort of fixation on French overseas territories. I have no idea what significance any of them attach to that particular set of geographical facts :confused: or what possible relevance they may have to the consideration of the border which divides North and South Ireland :ugh:
Perhaps some similar mental diversion affects the Buffoon in his inability to appreciate that moving goods from one part of the UK to another, which has an uncontrolled access border to a territory over which we have no authority, poses a much greater problem than transpoorting similar goods between locations, both of which are contained in one Sovereign country !!!!
I recall, as do many others, the Buffoon's statement that his ambition was to be "King of the World", but it really is well past the time when his minders should point out the childish nature of that desire and keep him under wraps and away from International scrutiny. We've suffered 4 years of the cringe-making activity of the Donald - please can we have a break from more and similar from this side of the Pond ? :sad:

LowNSlow 14th Jun 2021 15:05

ATNotts I disagree that the UK Government doesn't want to negotiate with the EU. I do believe however that the EU doesn't want to negotiate with the UK, they would prefer to dictate the terms that are acceptable to them hence the "red line" drawn around any area where a ruling by the ECJ would be "superior" to a UK High Court which I think is perfectly reasonable for a country not in the EU. Does an ECJ ruling overrule an Australian or Turkish decision for example? No, obviously not so why should our Supreme Court be subservient to the ECJ? I also disagree with your assessment that any form of the UK setting (resetting) it's own standards is "as though it was still an imperial power". Independent countries are entitled to set their own standards and would be remiss if they didn't. It is nothing to do with history but all to do with the future.

The EU and UK was never a partnership of equals when we were in the EU but at least now we have the ability to chart our own course independent of the growing unification of the 27 countries legal and financial systems.

I would have no problem with the UK joining EFTA a la Suiss but would not want the UK to be an EEA member as it would negate leaving the sorry mess in the first place.





wiggy 14th Jun 2021 15:08


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11061797)
wiggy, here's the Revised Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland.
Here's the relevant Article 16:

"..

Ah, .....so it's Article 16 ..I was hoping when you referred to an "agreement with clauses" in your previous post you'd found something a bit less controversial.




Fitter2 14th Jun 2021 15:43

CJ - The only reference to the French overseas territories is that Macron apparently believes NI not to be really in UK since there is a stretch if water between GB and NI; as far as the French are concerned Corsica (also somewhat remote islands) are nevertheless an integral part of France. Typical Doublethink.

Wiggy - if you actually could be bothered to read the sections of the documents quoted, you will see that the UK is fully entitled to take the actions proposed, no matter how much the French may bluster. Actions taken regarding the agreement are governed by the Joint Committee negotiation, not the ECJ.

Effluent Man 14th Jun 2021 17:48

NI are part of the same country, they just aren't part of the same century.

Just a spotter 14th Jun 2021 18:18


Originally Posted by Widger (Post 11061930)
Lets make no bones about it. The bodies of the EU, namely the Commission and the Parliament see this as an opportunity to punish the UK for daring to exit from the EU

Aside from rabble rousing headline writers, I don't see the rationale in suggesting that all or part of the EU institutions would want to ‘punish’ the UK for leaving. It’s pretty broadly accepted, even amongst leading voices on the pro-Brexit side, that leaving the EU, in and of itself, will have a negative social and economic impact on the UK. Witness Jacob Rees-Mogg’s comment that it could be 50 years before any benefits of leaving are felt. The London School of Economics published a report earlier this year where of about 50 leading economists from the UK and US 86% believed the UK economy would be at least 4% smaller by 2030 as a result of Brexit (it’ll be up to history to pick out what effects Covid and Brexit have individually, but even before Covid most economic and social experts projected a negative impact from Brexit … perhaps that’s why Mssr. Gove suggested Britain has had enough of experts when challenged in 2016 to name any leading economists who backed Brexit).

The UK leaving the EU is also expected to have a negative impact on the EU, so the group and its sovereign states will be busy enough cleaning up the implications of the UK's departure.

There is no benefit to the EU in expending energy and time to damage the UK when Brexit itself, compounded by the actions of the UK Government to pursue a harder flavour and exacerbated by Mssr. Johnson et al undermining the UK’s global credibility in how theyve dealt with the negotiations and agreements arising is likely to have damaged the country already, and is contributing directly to the increased tensions within the union with Scotland and Northern Ireland.

Almost 100 years since the United Kingdom project began to unravel and started to break up, it’s now facing a very uncertain future. Fuelled by the Brexit vote, the decision to go for a harder version of Brexit and a less than stellar handling of the process, the UK is inflicting as much damage on itself as it can. No help from outside is needed.
JAS

Mr Mac 14th Jun 2021 18:28

JAS
Well observed and put I could not agree more. I just hope that the option to rejoin occurs in that 50 years.
Cheers
Mr Mac

TURIN 14th Jun 2021 19:05

JAS, Spot on. Very well put.

wiggy 14th Jun 2021 19:33

Brexit Impact Tracker 13 June 2021 ? The ?Sausage Wars? and the increasingly worrying features of the Johnson Government ? Gerhard Schnyder

wiggy 15th Jun 2021 05:39


Originally Posted by Fitter2 (Post 11062003)
Wiggy - if you actually could be bothered to read the sections of the documents quoted, you will see that the UK is fully entitled to take the actions proposed, no matter how much the French may bluster. .

They are "entitled", the problem is it's use is being considered because of factors/issues that were known to HMG when Mr Johnson signed on the line....in fact well before then.

ORAC 15th Jun 2021 06:03


They are "entitled", the problem is it's use is being considered because of factors/issues that were known to HMG when Mr Johnson signed on the line....in fact well before then.
They are being considered because of the effect the application of the Protocol is having on politics in Northern Ireland.

Which included the resignation of the First Minister, her replacement as leader of her party by a hardliner with whom Sinn Fein will not work and the imminent collapse of the power sharing arrangement at Stormont and the reimposition of direct rule - perhaps permanently.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/s...e-b940559.html

Stormont may not return if it collapses this time, SDLP and UUP warn

https://sluggerotoole.com/2021/06/14...tormont-falls/

The nightmare scenario for Unionists is Nationalists no longer caring if Stormont falls…

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...isis-1.4593422

DUP-Sinn Féin have seven days to name top ministers to avert crisis

The above issues weren’t known when the Protocol was signed - but they certainly meet the conditions laid down in Article 16 for its invocation.

If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade, the Union or the United Kingdom may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures…..

Effluent Man 15th Jun 2021 08:48

All of the above. Tubs and Co should gave considered the ramifications of Brexit. Instead he reduced it to a stupid three word slogan. He got it done, NI got done over. You won, get over it!

LowNSlow 15th Jun 2021 09:34

wiggy, apologies but the Revised Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland is actually the definitive document for defining how the relationship between the EU and UK will work in the future.

dead_pan 15th Jun 2021 09:56


The above issues weren’t known when the Protocol was signed
They weren't known but were anticipated by many. It was obvious that the Protocol would cause cause problems in the Unionist community. Its just surprising just how quickly these came to the fore.

dead_pan 15th Jun 2021 10:01


Almost 100 years since the United Kingdom project began to unravel and started to break up, it’s now facing a very uncertain future.
Back in 2016 I recall pointing out (half-jokingly) that the various nationalist movements in the UK simply need to recycle all of the slogans and rhetoric used by Vote Leave e.g. unelected bureaucrats ruling over them, the loss of sovereignty, respecting the will of the people etc etc. Sturgeon has already cottoned on to this in Scotland following their recent elections.


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