PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   BREXIT (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/619673-brexit.html)

ORAC 20th May 2021 08:28


I was brought up in a dairy farming area
Gosh, for much of my youth so was I - Mullingar in West Meath. In fact most of my uncles were, and the children are, farmers. What a small world.

Most of their exports went to the UK- because, for all the dire forecasts about the fate of British farmers, the UK farming industry canít produce enough and over 35% of the beef and lamb in the UK has is imported.

Now, inside the EU and the CAP Ireland had, just about, a monopoly on the UK market. However, now the UK is outside the EU and phytosanitary and other customs checks have t9 be done, that market share is collapsing. Personally I canít see why Australia and New Zealand shouldnít be able to share that market - especially once the UK imposes equal import duties on EU imports as the EU does the other way and Irish prices go up appreciably.

And, of course, being on the other side of the world, the Antipodean lambing season is opposite to that of the UK and should complement the UK farming industry.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farmin...-40250537.html

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news...due-to-brexit/

Theholdingpoint 20th May 2021 08:28


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11047849)
Theholdingpoint, the number of species native to a country are a function of geography not politics.

Oh, really? Reading ORAC's post I thought the bad EU commission was actively reducing biodiversity in the UK...my bad...

ORAC 20th May 2021 08:47

Not the Commission the CAP. A point which even The Economist, a public Ian rabidly in favour of the UK remaining in the EU, admits. (You have to create an account, but it’s free).

I know there is an instinct for those in favour of remain to see everything concerned with the EU as good - but the CAP isn’t one of them

https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/619673-brexit-538.html

British farming after the common agricultural policy

Many of the claims made by Brexiteers have turned out to be rubbish. Contrary to their assurances, Britain will not soon be signing a trade deal with America. The border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, which the Brexiteers said would not be a problem, turns out to be a big one. Britain will probably end up letting French and Spanish trawlers into its waters. But one of the Brexiteers’ boasts is entirely right: Britain really ought to be able to come up with better agricultural policies outside the EU.

It can hardly do worse. The common agricultural policy (
cap), which Britain leaves on January 1st after 47 years, has been a lousy deal for the country. At considerable cost to the taxpayer, it has subsidised intensive farming methods that have denuded the countryside (see article), causing more ecological damage than climate change. Since 1970 the population of nesting farmland birds has been cut in half. Tariffs have raised the price of food. Some farmers have benefited from subsidies. But others have not, because the subsidies are capitalised into land values, raising the cost of getting into farming.

Soon after the Brexit vote in 2016, ministers talked bravely about doing away with farming subsidies and paying for public goods. Yet England has moved as slowly as a ruminating cow. With just five weeks left in the cap, and some subsidy cuts beginning soon after, it has provided few details about what will replace them. Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales are even tardier. They will stick with the old subsidy system for the next few years.

For almost half a century Britain has barely had to think about creating policies for 70% of its land area. Now, amid a pandemic and Brexit, it is confronted with fundamental questions. Should the country subsidise farming? How should it help the environment? What should it do about food imports? All these questions are made trickier by the deeply peculiar way in which Britons think about the land.

There are good arguments for abolishing all public support and leaving farming to the market. The original rationale for farm payments—to boost domestic food production—has not made sense for decades. Countries like Britain are secure because they are wealthy and because international supply chains work, not because they grow lots of food. And subsidies are a crutch for indifferent farmers. After New Zealand did away with its subsidies in the 1980s, some farms went bust. Fewer than had been feared, though—and the survivors became technologically sophisticated and export-oriented.

Britain is not quite like New Zealand, for reasons that go to the heart of Britons’ odd relationship with the countryside. In New Zealand, and also in America, people distinguish between farming and nature. Farmland is something that you might travel through in order to get somewhere pretty. Britons expect their agricultural land to be beautiful. Even national parks like Dartmoor and the Lake District are mostly farmed.

English nature poetry is stuffed with shepherds, wheatfields and skylarks, John Clare’s “sweet minstrel of the farm and plough”. Rambling along farmland footpaths is important to many Britons, and has been especially so during the pandemic. When other entertainments were cancelled, those who could grabbed their boots and headed for the fields with the dog.

British farmers are expected to produce not only skylarks and hawthorn, but increasingly to help with flood management and soaking up carbon dioxide, too. So it makes sense to pay them something. Today they get £2.5bn ($3.3bn) a year simply for farming, and can apply for another £500m for worthy things like planting hedgerows. One sum is too large, the other too small. If farming subsidies were cut, along with the tax breaks on capital gains, inheritance and fuel (outrageously, farmers pay very little duty on the “red diesel” they use) there would be money to spare.…….

Theholdingpoint 20th May 2021 09:27


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11047878)
Not the Commission the CAP. A point which even The Economist, a public Ian rabidly in favour of the UK remaining in the EU, admits. (You have to create an account, but it’s free).

I know there is an instinct for those in favour of remain to see everything concerned with the EU as good - but the CAP isn’t one of them

I just love your lack of logic: you're stating that with the CAP (aka: money to farmers) the UK failed to protect its biodiversity (where others succeeded), but now, thanks to the fact your farmers won't get any funding from the EU and will have to compete on a global scale they'll somehow improve biodiversity?
Have you ever thought about something like: farmer need money and has more competition ---> farms only high yield products?

But hey, if you set them up for failure biodiversity is going to increase...

wiggy 20th May 2021 09:38


Originally Posted by Theholdingpoint (Post 11047901)
I just love your lack of logic: you're stating that with the CAP (aka: money to farmers) the UK failed to protect its biodiversity (where others succeeded), but now, thanks to the fact your farmers won't get any funding from the EU and will have to compete on a global scale they'll somehow improve biodiversity?
.

Logic doesn't enter into any of this now...to slip into the vernacular Brexit was a Bait-and-Switch, we're now seeing Toy Party/Brexit acolytes volunteering or being (?) co-opted to gaslight the population into believing what we're seeing was what always promised...

dead_pan 20th May 2021 09:53


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11047755)
and impoverished farmers throughout Africa fior example

Hmm, good luck persuading your average Brexiteer as to the merits of us entering into trade deals with African states and giving their farmers access to the UK market.


preserving inefficient hill farmers
That'll play well in Wales and parts of northern England. I recall George Monbiot proposed something on these lines in his book Feral, which probably explains why he subsequently relocated from Hay-on-Wye to Oxford...


Another Advantage of exiting the CAP is that subsidies to landowners can be modified to reflect the desires of the nation, such as to suppprt those encouraging biodiversity, flood management etc.
Yes, the can be modified, but will they? Given our farmers will now be in competition with those mega farms in Oz and, presumably (in time) the US, I foresee that this probably won't come to pass.

I remember debating with some Brexiteers back in 2016 regarding the pros and cons of trade deals. As far as they were concerned there would be no downsides from them for the UK i.e. we would win every time.

LowNSlow 20th May 2021 10:00

Scotland's Rural College seems to be doing something about exploring how to make hill farming more "efficient".

I was surprised to hear, despite all the puffing about how the UK's farming industry is so useless, that the UK is the world's 6th largest producer of lamb and mutton. Looks like those "inefficient" hill farms aren't doing so bad after all.

Cornish Jack 20th May 2021 10:05

Listening to the Today programme this morning, a short piece, towards the end, featured a David Henwick (sp?) of the UK Trade Forum. He and Robinson were discussing the potential Australia-UK 'deal'. Two points made which I rate as important, the lack of information from our Government as to the details (secrecy, yet again) and the obvious desperation inherent in the need to make a grand announcement for the G10 Summit. The latter is pretty standard 'fluff', but the first is a potential worry. It was pointed out that, ultimately, the principles agreed in this deal would, almost certainly set the grounds for future similar with NZ and the US.
Anyone for anti-biotic beef and chlorine-washed chicken ?

dead_pan 20th May 2021 10:14


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 11047925)
I was surprised to hear, despite all the puffing about how the UK's farming industry is so useless, that the UK is the world's 6th largest producer of lamb and mutton. Looks like those "inefficient" hill farms aren't doing so bad after all.

I believe most of our sheep farming is done 'conventionally' in lowland farms. There are plenty of them about here in Oxfordshire.

dead_pan 20th May 2021 10:17


Originally Posted by Cornish Jack (Post 11047930)
It was pointed out that, ultimately, the principles agreed in this deal would, almost certainly set the grounds for future similar with NZ and the US.

I thought this too. The US in particular would want a better deal than any we had with their competitors.

ORAC 20th May 2021 10:20

LowNSlow,

Because, for some reason, most people in the world don’t eat lamb, sheep are almost exclusive raised for wool. The UK is 7th, after Algeria and Iran…..

You will note the USA is 29th with 69K tons - for a market of over 360 million. Try buying a leg of lamb or a lamb chop in a uS supermarket. It’s about as rare as horsemeat. Which shows why the Australians and New Zealand are already the main importers into the UK, mainly, as previously stated, on a seasonal basis because of their opposite lambing seasons, unlikely to change regardless of any trade deal…..

https://www.nationmaster.com/nmx/ran...amb-production

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ed-kingdom-uk/


The main market fir UK lamb exports is the EU, largely Germany. (However it’s minuscule amount, about 15K tons out of a production of over 320K tons.)

The EU is currently negotiating a FTA with Australia in which one of the main benefits for Australia will be tariff free lamb exports to the EU.

Something which would have had the same effect on UK farmers even if we hadn’t left the EU - but then, EU trade deals are usually aimed at benefitting the Germans and French rather than the British - as with that with Japan….

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreem...fta-fact-sheet

Effluent Man 20th May 2021 10:53


Originally Posted by alicopter (Post 11047691)
I do not know if Northerners have been disadvantaged or if Portugese are desperate for their money but I did notice that a lot of people in the streets of Lowestoft this afternoon looked very "pale and depressed" and with a "long face" despite the masks. England looks and feels a lot like the USSR before 1989! Everybody wants to get away. A bit like a Tupolev that looks like a Concorde but does not quite flies like one... Going the same way as the Bitcoin maybe? I cannot help feeling the kind of negative atmosphere. May be the Circus is fed up with having a Clown Triste in charge, the laughs are fake... Time for my Vitamin D tablet... or a move further South.

As somebody born in the town that you mention I can probably get away with this. One of Ken Dodd's last appearances was in Lowestoft. I rather liked his one liner that Lowestoft didn't have a twin town but we had a suicide pact with Grimsby. The parts of the town immediately next to the bascule bridge are known colloquially as the North and South Bronxes.

Widger 20th May 2021 11:35


Anyone for anti-biotic beef and chlorine-washed chicken ?
I sometimes struggle with the focus on this issue as we have no qualms about importing Chicken and seafood from the Far East.

Chlorate in seafood

Animal Welfare in Vietnam

a contrary view

Higher welfare standards than UK

dead_pan 20th May 2021 12:27


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11047947)
LowNSlow,

Because, for some reason, most people in the world donít eat lamb

Its definitely falling out of favour here in the UK, particularly with the rise of people favouring plant-based diets. The same thing s happening in China (the biggest market for NZ lamb), although here the state is actively encouraging people to adopt these diets rather than personal choice.

LowNSlow 20th May 2021 12:29

I originate from the hills of Wales so I rarely eat Welsh lamb as it may be a relative :)

Cornish Jack 20th May 2021 13:16

I sometimes struggle with the focus on this issue as we have no qualms about importing Chicken and seafood from the Far East.

Would that be the Martian Royal/Imperial 'we' or do you normally assume that your tastes are shared by everyone else ?

Something which would have had the same effect on UK farmers even if we hadnít left the EU - but then, EU trade deals are usually aimed at benefitting the Germans and French rather than the British - as with that with JapanÖ.

If that statement had any validity, do you think that it might have had something to do with our constant lack of involvement with meaningful dialogues plus the incessant 'wrecking' attempts by our 'representatives' in the forum ?
Innate British, (mainly English), xenophobia was a major factor from the inception of the original Coal and Steel Community. It fuelled much of De Gaulle's antipathy towards our membership. Our subsequent lack of enthusiasm, for what could have been an influential leading role, inevitably led to primacy for those members who did embrace the concept.
Short-sightedness has been the bugbear of so much of our involvement in World affairs.

ATNotts 20th May 2021 13:23


Originally Posted by Cornish Jack (Post 11048051)
Innate British, (mainly English), xenophobia was a major factor from the inception of the original Coal and Steel Community. It fuelled much of De Gaulle's antipathy towards our membership. Our subsequent lack of enthusiasm, for what could have been an influential leading role, inevitably led to primacy for those members who did embrace the concept.
Short-sightedness has been the bugbear of so much of our involvement in World affairs.

Right, right, and right again!!

England (I hesitate to tar fellow nations of the UK with the same brush) has a high opinion of itself and only really wants to engage when it can be top dog. Otherwise it plays the petulant child that can't get its own way and figuratively says "that's it, I'm going to play in my bedroom" before going off in a stomp. May have worked in days of empire, but won't wash in todays global world.

Avionker 20th May 2021 13:28

Incoming...
 
I hope you have your helmet and flak jacket on ATN....:ok:

grottyyottie 20th May 2021 13:56

ATN

Right, right, and right again!
England (I hesitate to tar fellow nations of the UK with the same brush) has a high opinion of itself and only really wants to engage when it can be top dog. Otherwise it plays the petulant child that can't get its own way and figuratively says "that's it, I'm going to play in my bedroom" before going off in a stomp. May have worked in days of empire, but won't wash in todays global world.
_______________

Not correct. Utter fatuous drivel. The BREXIT vote was quite clear. The Commonwealth is still massive and Liz Truss is reorganising our world trade with an impressive result. Millions from the EU are staying and working in the UK. Our Military, with new kit, are sailing east at a high rate of knots to show what happens in our "global world."
Our security services bit back hard at Russia and China, but all done rather discretely. Tis the British way. We don't yet use water cannons and tear gas to control the yobs and mobs as in the EU.
Questions.

alicopter 20th May 2021 14:03


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11048056)
Right, right, and right again!!

England (I hesitate to tar fellow nations of the UK with the same brush) has a high opinion of itself and only really wants to engage when it can be top dog. Otherwise it plays the petulant child that can't get its own way and figuratively says "that's it, I'm going to play in my bedroom" before going off in a stomp. May have worked in days of empire, but won't wash in todays global world.

England yes, but I would almost give them some "excuses" since behind most of this reluctance to contribute to the EU project was/is a very powerful influence/arm twisting from the USA who never saw with a kind eye an almost "equal" influencial block (or potential competitor if not partner...) England never really was 100% in the project, only considering, as you can see in most of the posts on this thread the commercial side of it. Most Europeans see the bigger picture... and understanding of the Plan. It was not in the interest of the UK governments to educate the people, especially as the very base of the joining in the 70ies was a complete lie or evasive explanation as to what the project was all about... a place where all the countries would, after a slow and painful aquisition of a humane, financialy fair, equal and friendly playing field... in the respect of Human Rights, without the threat of eventual conflicts between peoples sharing a common goal, Peace and Justice.


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:57.


Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.