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ATNotts 30th Mar 2021 16:52


Originally Posted by Cornish Jack (Post 11019347)
I wait, with keen interest, to see how the latest tariff imposition by the US, because of our 'digital tax' imposition, will play out. Did I note a different approach towards the (powerful) EU,?
We have now taken back control, but are a bit short on economic muscle to deal with such bullying tactics. Not to worry, though - that nice Ms Truss, she of the declamatory cheese triumph (amongst other successes), will no doubt use her persuasive public persona to save the day.
HIGNFY recently featured one of her cringeworthy pronouncements but, I was so stunned that she could be allowed to continue these little pantomimes, that I have no idea what 'world beating' commodity was involved.

The problem for the current UK government is that although they have a handsome majority, a goodly proportion of current Tory MPs simply aren't dogmatic enough about Brexit to qualify for a seat in cabinet. So when the PM is choosing who is to sit around the cabinet table he has less talent to pick from, hence some of the 2nd rate incompetents we have in cabinet today.

Mr Mac 30th Mar 2021 21:04


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11019353)
The problem for the current UK government is that although they have a handsome majority, a goodly proportion of current Tory MPs simply aren't dogmatic enough about Brexit to qualify for a seat in cabinet. So when the PM is choosing who is to sit around the cabinet table he has less talent to pick from, hence some of the 2nd rate incompetents we have in cabinet today.

ATNotts
When running off a cliff with a group of friends you do not want somebody at the back questioning your leadership. Do you not understand the rules of the Wall Game;) ?
Cheer's
Mr Mac

4468 30th Mar 2021 22:34


ATNotts
When running off a cliff with a group of friends you do not want somebody at the back questioning your leadership. Do you not understand the rules of the Wall Gamehttps://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif ?
Cheer's
Mr Mac
Oh, I agree. I see Merkel and Macron now courting Vladimir Putin to supply the Sputnik vaccine to the EU. What an embarrassing mess!!

They certainly won’t be wanting their ‘leadership’ questioned!

😂🤣😂

ATNotts 31st Mar 2021 07:53


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11019520)
Oh, I agree. I see Merkel and Macron now courting Vladimir Putin to supply the Sputnik vaccine to the EU. What an embarrassing mess!!

They certainly won’t be wanting their ‘leadership’ questioned!

😂🤣😂

And what is wrong with Germany and Austria discussing procurement of Sputnik V from Russia? In all probability an inbuilt hardwired prejudice in the UK and other "western" countries to anything manufactured in Russia. If it works, is safe and can be approved by the regulators in Germany and Austria, then why not?

The UK and others may be well advised to follow a similar path.

ATNotts 31st Mar 2021 08:00

Simply no more discussion of Brexit!

https://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/eu...ilanz-101.html

Interesting take on how the British government is avoiding discussion on the negatives of Brexit by hiding behind the pandemic. Bad news for Johnson and his cronies is that with the vaccination programme going so well in UK, Brexit may well once again become a big story in town.

Google translate is usable of those with no German.


Denti 31st Mar 2021 08:18


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 11019670)
And what is wrong with Germany and Austria discussing procurement of Sputnik V from Russia? In all probability an inbuilt hardwired prejudice in the UK and other "western" countries to anything manufactured in Russia. If it works, is safe and can be approved by the regulators in Germany and Austria, then why not?

The UK and others may be well advised to follow a similar path.

Not to mention, a Sputnik V production is already starting in Bavaria, Germany. No idea about Macron, but Merkel is always referring to EMA approval which is already on the way, with visits to production sites still outstanding. However, i am always a bit puzzled by the prejudice towards stuff coming from Russia, after all there does not seem to be any prejudice against russian Oligarchs deciding about UK laws as they do sit in the House of Lords and primarily finance the current government party.

ORAC 31st Mar 2021 08:19


And what is wrong with Germany and Austria discussing procurement of Sputnik V from Russia?
Well nothing.

But it hasn’t been approved by the EMA and substantial doubts exist concerning the completeness of safety data coming out of Russia.

Russia doesn’t have the production capacity to meet any European orders and has just started talks with plants in Bavaria and elsewhere to meet any requirement. (The Sputnik vaccine is of the same type as the AZ and I think the EU is well aware of the problems associated with starting and ramping up production.)

On the best estimates any limited supply could start around July - just as all the other vaccines ordered start to arrive in large numbers more than adequate to meet the vaccination programme needs.

You may wonder from the above why France and Germany would ask? It would seem they didn’t - Russia offered, and Merkel and Macron’s responses were - circumspect...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...k-v-vaccine-eu


ATNotts 31st Mar 2021 08:21


Originally Posted by Denti (Post 11019684)
after all there does not seem to be any prejudice against russian Oligarchs deciding about UK laws as they do sit in the House of Lords and primarily finance the current government party.

Those are big allegations!! I know they are big users of the UK money laundry but didn't know they'd got themselves on to the benches of the House of Lords; though little would surprise me.

Cornish Jack 31st Mar 2021 08:25

ATN - The opinions of 4468 re the Russian vaccine are not unusual. The inability, or unwillingness, to accept the technical quality of research conducted other than in UK or US, is just yet another facet of xenophobia, The only thing missing is the suggestion that it was all mixed up in Putin's personal laboratory and mixed with a potent ingredient to instantly transform the recipient into a raving Marxist/Leninist ! Our 'own' (AZ) version, suitably packaged in inverted Union flags (?) continues to generate concerns, due, I suspect, to an incompetent 'over-egging' introduction rather than any deficiency.

SaulGoodman 31st Mar 2021 08:26

Sputnik’s EMA approval is expected at the beginning of April. Production will start pending on approval in Italy and elsewhere. The Italians together with the Russians will test the results of 1 shot of AZ followed by 1 shot of Sputnik as we all know that AZ is failing its deliveries to the EU.

4468 31st Mar 2021 11:10


AZ is failing its deliveries to the EU.
AZ says it is acting in agreement with it’s contract. Are the EU taking AZ to court over this alleged contractual disagreement? 🤔

Or are they just huffing and puffing and throwing their weight around, to mask their incompetence? Rubbishing a very effective vaccine in the process!

Point of information.

I have no particular criticism of the innovative abilities of the Russians. Certainly they are able to deliver Novichok to Salisbury and plutonium to London tea shops, so I imagine Sputnik to Munich or Paris is easy? Of course they also have a penchant for annexing countries and denying they shot down civil airliners. They lock up opposition leaders on trumped up charges and are still the subject of sanctions by the UK and the US. I can’t comment on whether they are still sanctioned by the EU!

But hey, they’re flogging vaccine! The EU are desperate!!

I imagine, according to Kernow Jack, highlighting these events will no doubt be “just yet another facet of xenophobia” 😂🤣😂 The ‘go to’ lazy smear from all remainers!

It’s just that I thought I’d read from remainers, a criticism of a post brexit government attempting to do deals with less ‘savoury’ regimes? Would that critique now look like double standards or just hypocrisy? Who knows, maybe the UK will even put in an order for Sputnik!

Russian behaviour

Putin is a murderous thug who is no friend of the West.

ATNotts 31st Mar 2021 12:19


But hey, according to Kernow Jack, highlighting these events is “just yet another facet of xenophobia” 😂🤣😂 The ‘go to’ lazy smear from all remainers!
Leaving aside for the moment the jibe at "remainers" it's all a bit more sinister than that. Those of us are of an age where we lived through the 1960s and 1970s being fed a diet of anti-Soviet / anti-Russian propaganda in what was an absolutely deliberate and quite successful attempt to brainwash the populations of Western Europe and North America. The legacy of that lives on in the minds of people, not just us older people but has been successfully passed down to a younger generation.

If you look at the history of Russia, and the times they have been invaded I think you would find the fear of NATO invasion to topple the Soviet system was at least as real to them as the fear on the NATO side that Russia was about to swarm across the plains of Northern Europe and annex vast swathes of Europe. Likelihood is that both fears were outrageous and overblown. The image of "nasty Russians" was firmly implanted in the mind, to the extent that when you actually met real Russians and realised they were, curiously, but hardly unsurprisingly, normal people, just like us and it was a shock.

Yes, Putin is a quasi dictator, but he retains the support of a majority of Russians (and I'm not citing election results, they, I am sure are massaged somewhat, though not to the extent that Lukashenko massages them in Belarus) because he is strong, there is no history of democracy in Russia, and the people like a strong leader, probably because they still fear attack (from the West) because that has been engrained in their psyche.

The aversion to, and rubbishing of Sputnik V is as much to do with engrained suspicion of Russia and all things Russians, as it is any rational fear that the product doesn't work. If I hadn't been given the AZ vaccine, and had been offered Sputnik V I would have taken it, as however tyrannical Putin is, he would never set out to kill or harm his people - of course he might want o plant a chip in them!!:D

4468 31st Mar 2021 12:39

If you are prepared to defend the old Soviet Union, then I am unsurprised you are a fan of the EU.

If the gangster Putin retains the support of a majority of Russians, why do you think he feels it necessary to jail the opposition leader Navalny after a bungled attempt to assisinate him? 🤔

Oh, and I have never been ‘shocked’ when I have met Russian people, and that’s despite spending most of the ‘80s waiting to fight off Soviet T64s as they ‘swarmed across’ the IGB, from the occupied countries of East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.

The people are any country’s greatest asset!

SaulGoodman 31st Mar 2021 13:14


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11019794)
AZ says it is acting in agreement with it’s contract. Are the EU taking AZ to court over this alleged contractual disagreement? 🤔

Or are they just huffing and puffing and throwing their weight around, to mask their incompetence? Rubbishing a very effective vaccine in the process!

Point of information.

I have no particular criticism of the innovative abilities of the Russians. Certainly they are able to deliver Novichok to Salisbury and plutonium to London tea shops, so I imagine Sputnik to Munich or Paris is easy? Of course they also have a penchant for annexing countries and denying they shot down civil airliners. They lock up opposition leaders on trumped up charges and are still the subject of sanctions by the UK and the US. I can’t comment on whether they are still sanctioned by the EU!

But hey, they’re flogging vaccine! The EU are desperate!!

I imagine, according to Kernow Jack, highlighting these events will no doubt be “just yet another facet of xenophobia” 😂🤣😂 The ‘go to’ lazy smear from all remainers!

It’s just that I thought I’d read from remainers, a criticism of a post brexit government attempting to do deals with less ‘savoury’ regimes? Would that critique now look like double standards or just hypocrisy? Who knows, maybe the UK will even put in an order for Sputnik!

Russian behaviour

Putin is a murderous thug who is no friend of the West.

4468. The contract the EU has with AZ is basically the same as the UK has with AZ. Fact is that AZ has not been able to deliver the vaccines negotiated in a timely matter. Far from. So whether or not this will result in a court case isn’t important at the moment. It is however safe to say that AZ is failing its deliveries.

that brings me to the aforementioned “export ban”. The EU have no such “ban”. It doesn’t apply for instance to BioNtech as they have now their act together. I think we can all expect starting issues when you roll out such a vaccination process. But with AZ and its deliveries to the EU it has been a mess since day 1. Therefore I believe it is logical that the EU / Italian or Dutch government is implementing export limitations. AZ has exported more then 10 million vaccines to the UK with another 25 million + doses waiting. After questioning from the Dutch government AZ called this “trial doses”. The US, and even the UK has similar limitations in place.
In fact, Pfizer is exporting vaccines from Europe to Canada as the US has export limitations in place.

the vaccin roll out in the EU and various member states has been very poor. I agree. That doesn’t change that AZ is scr*wing up left right and center.

Mr Mac 31st Mar 2021 13:21


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11019838)
If you are prepared to defend the old Soviet Union, then I am unsurprised you are a fan of the EU.

If the gangster Putin retains the support of a majority of Russians, why do you think he feels it necessary to jail the opposition leader Navalny after a bungled attempt to assisinate him? 🤔

Oh, and I have never been ‘shocked’ when I have met Russian people, and that’s despite spending most of the ‘80s waiting to fight off Soviet T64s as they ‘swarmed across’ the IGB, from the occupied countries of East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia etc.

The people are any country’s greatest asset!

4468
I think that would be T72 by then. I was there in Chieftan and Lep 2 in late 79-80. T64 never worried me much, but gun ships and A/C are death for tankers.
Cheers
Mr Mac


ATNotts 31st Mar 2021 13:24

4468

Clearly the military did an excellent job of brainwashing you! At no point have I defended the former Soviet Union, and to claim that somehow the Soviet Union can be equated in any way to the Soviet Union is, frankly, laughable! Polls (and OK polls can be spectacularly wrong, and depend to a great degree on what was asked, and how it was asked) consistently show support for Putin at 60 or so percent, personally I wouldn't be supportive of him, but then I don't know what is the calibre of the opposition in Russia. Why he apparently chose to first attempt to poison Novalny is difficult to fathom, why the Russian government now wants him out of harm's way (behind bars) is fairly obvious given their failure to bump him off with Novichok.

4468 31st Mar 2021 15:41

SaulGoodman

The contract the EU has with AZ is basically the same as the UK has with AZ.
I believe that may be factually inaccurate I’m afraid. The British contract is written in accordance with British law. The EU contract is written in accordance with Belgian law. There are significant differences. But you are correct to say AZ has failed to deliver the numbers of doses promised to either customer! Such is the difficulty of upscaling. The place to resolve contractual disagreements is not by enabling export ‘restrictions’ as you term it.

Mr Mac

I remember the T72 very well. It may be that I was more perplexed by the ZSU234.

Torquetalk 31st Mar 2021 16:34


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11019930)
I believe that may be factually inaccurate I’m afraid. The British contract is written in accordance with British law. The EU contract is written in accordance with Belgian law. There are significant differences

Just for shits and giggles would you take us though the contractual points of difference and illustrate how these accord with British as opposed to Belgian law?

You won‘t be doing that though, will you? Because you just sort of made up the above because you think it is true.

Oh, and comparing the EU to the former Soviet Union is just silly. Obviously, categorically, nothing like each other. And when it comes down to representing my interests, I see my rights reflected and enshrined and enforced in law much more by the EU than any version of a state that Moscow has managed in the last... well, ever. Get real.

KyleRB 31st Mar 2021 16:53

I have no idea what is in either contract. I have heard that the EU contract may have been published a few weeks ago but I don’t believe the UK contract has. If you haven’t had sight of both contracts and don’t have some legal training, how on earth is anyone able to pronounce categorically and authoritatively either way!!??

Alsacienne 31st Mar 2021 17:09

So .... to all you folk who know so much more than I do .... WHERE IS THE ASTRA ZENECA VACCINE??? ANY OF IT????


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