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Torquetalk 14th Aug 2019 12:51


Originally Posted by Dark Knight (Post 10544504)
This seems to put it more inperspective?

Brexit - A Good Speech

Don’t be fooled by apparent reasonableness and pseudo solidarity. The AfD is an extremist party which is

anti-immigrant
specifically anti muslim
anti EU
Anti climate change acceptance
anti-abortion
anti citizens’ and workers’ rights

in other words, reactionary on pretty much any major issue on which they can garner popular support, with the exception of the latter issue, which most would-be AfD supporters are blissfully unaware.
Alternative for Deutschland? They are nutters who who would deconstruct the Sozial Markt which has made Germany strong. They need to be kept well away from any sphere of influence. Fortunately, they are demographically challenged as they are firing blanks at pretty much all future voters, ie. the young.




pax britanica 14th Aug 2019 13:01

It seems so long ago now that its hard to remember the referendum-a democratic vote of course but an unelected PM with no majority apparently is also democracy as is denying proper briefings to our head of state.

Still leaving things like that aside can any leavers explain why they want to leave beyond
1 Dislike of foreigners but not sure quite why.
2 Take back control, which we already had for the most part, certainly everything major, and are now surrendering that to the USA so we become not the 51st state but Puerto Rico II
3. We will get better trade terms-clearly we wont as we are no desperate and easy to take advantage of especially by our potential largest trading partner the AMERICA FIRST USA. And a condition that if we make the big tech companies pay a proper rate of tax there will be no trade deal
4 project fear Which turned out to be mostly true or coming true with a very weak pound and thus higher prices for everything , A minuscule amount of money to be added tot he NHS, about 5-6 weeks worth of the sum trumpeted at the type, destruction of the UK care industry almost all of which is foreign owned .
5 Assurances that getting a new and better deal with the EU would be the easiest negotiation in the world.
6 We have pissed off China big time so no favourable trade deal there, not that there ever was one,
7 We dont actually pay anything like the sums claimed as we get all kinds of rebates, reinvestment s and support for Export prompting activities
8 Farmers will lose their CAP subsidies and get crushed by US ag products with a huge cost advantage and help from testerone, growth hormones GM extensive drug treatments and some of the lowest food standards in the western world

There are many more but I cant actually remember why we wanted to leave other than bigotry , cowardice, ineptness, desire to retain wealth and privilege, desire to remain the worlds largest tax evasion and money laundering centre (the City plus the 'overseas territories) and a fear that a Eu which will always have a fairly moderate government because of consensus among 20 plus countries might make ultra right neo cons uncomfortable that they might lose control of the media and self serving tax policies.

And where the Eu parliament does impact us isnt a French schoolteacher, A German engineer, a Spanish health Service Director more likely to be in tune with what the average person in Uk would like compared to Rich Old Etonians or former City Banker

Pontius Navigator 14th Aug 2019 14:41


It seems so long ago now that its hard to remember the referendum-a democratic vote of course but an unelected PM with no majority apparently is also democracy as is denying proper briefings to our head of state.
PB, no matter his many times you peddle this line, the only thing true is it seems a long time ago. The rest is nonsense.

SARF 14th Aug 2019 14:58


Originally Posted by 101917 (Post 10543747)
For those amongst you who thought Cameron brought back nothing worthwhile from Brussels you may wish to read that agreement again. In particular the bit regarding Sovereignty.

Many voted to leave so that the UK would regain/get its sovereignty back. Something we had never lost and would not lose in the future.

There were also many other myths that the leave campaign would have us believe that were also totally false.

This was part of the agreement Cameron brought back from Brussels.

SOVEREIGNTY

1. It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.”

this is the EU we are talking about .. they just won’t refer to ‘ever closer union ‘ whilst doing it

wiggy 14th Aug 2019 16:15


Originally Posted by MOSTAFA (Post 10544611)
What part o fYES don’t you understand? And before you regurgitate more and more examples of what you understand as Democracy let’s got back to the beginning - the then PM, decided to have a gamble to try and move his drinks cabinet closer to the EU. He made it very clear what that gamble involved, no ambiguity. The democratic will of the UK was to leave, no if’s no buts, no left wing slants. The democratic will of the UK was to leave

Excellent (BTW thanks to ORAC for the correction)..So it sounds like you think it is OK for the PM to use the parliamentary clock /procedure to restrict any further debate on the manner of leaving, (personally I think the situation is such that the MPs ought to back at Westminster right now)

When there is a "left wing" government in power ( and it will happen) I take it there will be no complaints if they decide to use democracy in the form of parliamentary procedure, conference season, etc, to limit debate?

Fundamentally I'm fast getting past caring, I would only ask that if the wheels fall off the vocal Brexiters "own" the problems on the basis that they knew it was a gamble, that they knew "leave means leave" and it was the "will" of a proportion of the British the people ...but somehow I doubt that is going to happen.

The Nip 14th Aug 2019 16:17


Originally Posted by SARF (Post 10544923)

this is the EU we are talking about .. they just won’t refer to ‘ever closer union ‘ whilst doing it


He did not bring anything back that had been approved by the other member states. That was the just one of the problems.
The other EU countries were not due to vote on Cameron's concessions until AFTER the referendum.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

racedo 14th Aug 2019 17:11

Pelosi making it very clear, Disrupt Good Friday Agreement and there is no deal. It is Congress that approves it and it will not be a partisan action either.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49348062

Exrigger 14th Aug 2019 17:19

Having read the first link, it makes one wonder whether Bercow is working outside the intent of his position with his latest actions, noted in the Guardian link below:

https://www.parliament.uk/business/c...f-the-speaker/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...nt-for-no-deal

pax britanica 14th Aug 2019 17:22

Peddling nonsense-whats the value of the pound

How many jobs lost already

Maybe I exaggerate a bit but I am only me-i am not on national TV exaggerating and lying about the benefits to the NHS and the simplicity of leaving

And by the way what actually are the real reasons for leaving

And as for Boris and the inflammatory remakes about collaborators who is collaborating with the USA and giving into their every whim

MOSTAFA 14th Aug 2019 17:49

Wiggy as you find it so difficult to understand my answer I will say it yet again - Yes.

MOSTAFA 14th Aug 2019 17:51

What’s the real reason? It’s called DEMOCRACY.

yellowtriumph 14th Aug 2019 18:32


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10544997)
Excellent (BTW thanks to ORAC for the correction)..So it sounds like you think it is OK for the PM to use the parliamentary clock /procedure to restrict any further debate on the manner of leaving, (personally I think the situation is such that the MPs ought to back at Westminster right now)

When there is a "left wing" government in power ( and it will happen) I take it there will be no complaints if they decide to use democracy in the form of parliamentary procedure, conference season, etc, to limit debate?

Fundamentally I'm fast getting past caring, I would only ask that if the wheels fall off the vocal Brexiters "own" the problems on the basis that they knew it was a gamble, that they knew "leave means leave" and it was the "will" of a proportion of the British the people ...but somehow I doubt that is going to happen.

My bold. Naturally I understand where you are coming from. But in reality hasn't this been debated to death? What new bold idea is waiting in the wings to ensure we leave the EU with either a satisfactory deal or no deal. There isn't really anything, its become a HoP hamsterwheel where nothing is agreed and MPs go around and around in endless loops only agreeing not to agree on anything. If there was something substantive to debate then I'm sure they would, but there isn't. Much better I think to bring this all to an end and the quicker the better, as country we need to move on.

Krystal n chips 14th Aug 2019 18:48


Originally Posted by yellowtriumph (Post 10545123)
. Much better I think to bring this all to an end and the quicker the better, as country we need to move on.

Remarkably similar to the thoughts of Trump then........unfortunately, several million UK citizens would not agree with you.......including me....because once the rhetoric ceases, the insidious and damaging effects will begin in earnest and those effects do not constitute moving on......more like full reverse.


ORAC 14th Aug 2019 19:42

Looks like the Withdrawal Agreement might be making a comeback........

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...gh-brexit-deal

Pontius Navigator 14th Aug 2019 21:58


Originally Posted by pax britanica (Post 10545059)
And by the way what actually are the real reasons for leaving

Nail, head, hit.

My MiL would probably cite WW2 and everything that stemmed from that. I think in my wife's case in its basic form - envy. She would cite better infrastructure on the continent from roads, pavements, streetlights, and benefits bestowed on Spanish or Greek citizens.

This despite both ordinary Greeks and Italians telling us that Britain is lucky not being fully integrated. This was before the referendum.

The huge non voting part of the population was probably indifferent. Of the voters I would opin that ignorance predominated.

Where we are now I see the likes of Philip Hammond as a true traitor. Under the guise of getting a deal he has been fighting in cabinet, in parliament, and in their media to thwart the will of the people as did vote in the referendum.

Listening to the radio today I heard mixed messages from Labour. One said, we lost, no second referendum go for a deal. Another wants a confirmatory referendum etc.
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Sallyann1234 14th Aug 2019 22:11

It seems to me that at a time of national crisis like this, parliament should remain sitting every day until Brexit actually happens. .
Even if they cannot come to any new compromise on the existing exit plan, they should be there in order to discuss any new development that might arrive.
It is just plain wrong that they can all p1ss off on holidays and party conferences under the present circumstance.

Phantom Driver 14th Aug 2019 22:36

The irony is that before the referendum only 6 % of the population gave a stuff about the EU . Most had more pressing personal matters to attend to.

Barksdale Boy 14th Aug 2019 22:38

Someone writing recently in a national publication ( I forget which) about some absurdity of modern life signed off his letter with "I am losing the will to live". I know how he feels.

NutLoose 14th Aug 2019 23:15

So Corbyn is playing his hand.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49352250

IT annoys me that all this crap about mandates, democracy and the will of parliament is drifting away from the real issue and that is the democratic will of the people, while the likes of Corbyn it is all down with a self centred ambition and screw the Country. Let the man have the time to bring the EU back to the table and that needs a viable hard Brexit to remain on the table.

I see the muppets on newsnight picking up on trucks of medicine flown into the UK and they are reading it as Lorries as being carried and not simply the load lol. Looking around they identified only 10 AN124's capable of carrying lorries.

Jack D 14th Aug 2019 23:47


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10545307)
Nail, head, hit.


Where we are now I see the likes of Philip Hammond as a true traitor.
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Hammond is the MP for Runnymede in Surrey, his constituents voted to leave the EU. He voted to remain, he is betraying his constituents this is not what he was elected to do.
Yet he dresses it up by stating that a possible no deal is not what the voters wanted which is his codefor remain
I believe that he has undermined the leaving process in all his time as chancellor and has paid only lip service to his constituents wishes

Curiously I am ambivalent to the final outcome but this
behaviour is self serving and disappointing to say the least.


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