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ATNotts 8th Mar 2021 09:48


Originally Posted by ThorMos (Post 11004331)
you forgot to mention the british empire...

..................:ok::ok:

pug 8th Mar 2021 09:51


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004315)
Delusional Utopianism. The Ottoman Empire and the Soviet Union disagrees with you. Don't see a historical reintegration there after a 'step back.' For Greater Yugoslavia comrade! The European Union is nearly over thank god. It won't survive the next financial shock.

This must be a joke, surely? Of course any union forged by tanks rolling into foreign territory is bound to fail eventually. The British Empire being no exception.

Unless I’m sorely mistaken, the EU was born out of a Union of nations willingly working together towards a common economic goal, and a way in which to end centuries of infra-European fighting. Short of the minority in England who seem to want to see it fail - and invariably the political instability from such a fallout - it appears the EU outside of little England is actually fairly well supported, despite its faults.

Due largely to Geography, Britain wasn’t invaded in the last century. The scars of war (quickly fading from living memory) are covered by the bandage of being amongst the victors in the last war. This is what feeds into our exceptionality, and which is why we have always had a large wave skepticism of the EU in the mindset of people here in England. To wish such an institution to fail is to denigrate all the work and sacrifice previous generations have made to see stability in the U.K. and Europe. Patriotism indeed.

antheads 8th Mar 2021 09:53


you forgot to mention the british empire...
Exactly. The Brittish Empire and German Reich is over. So why try and recreate it with the EU?



Unless I’m sorely mistaken, the EU was born out of a Union of nations willingly working together towards a common economic goal,
That's how it was born, that's not it is now. As Greece and the European south has learnt its a tool to impose Franco-German economic hegemony on the continent. The monetary union is a failed project bringing mass unemployment to countries such as Spain and Greece. Visegrad countries are rebelling against the imposition of western European cultural values. The European Commission is a blundering arrogant bureaucracy that can't even competently negotiate a vaccine supply.

Your solution of a supranational political union as the final solution to avoid war is daft. It seems Canada/USA and India/China has avoided a second war without one.

ThorMos 8th Mar 2021 10:00


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004342)
Exactly. The Brittish Empire and German Reich is over. So why try and recreate it with the EU?

We (germans) are not trying to recreate it, we are trying to work together closely with our neighbours. You (Brexiteers) can't get over the fact that you have to discuss things with your neighbour. It's called 'working together'. This is not allowed to be part of your delusional rememberance of how great the british were.

ORAC 8th Mar 2021 10:01


Unless I’m sorely mistaken, the EU was born out of a Union of nations willingly working together towards a common economic goal
May I mention The Hanseatic League?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

ThorMos 8th Mar 2021 10:02


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004342)

<snip>

That's how it was born, that's not it is now. As Greece and the european south has learnt its a tool to impose franco-german economic hegemony on the continent. The Euro is a failed project bringing mass unemployment to countries such as Spain and Greece.

What did the 'franco-german economic hegemony' do to greece? They paid greeces bills!
Still asking myself why i even bother...

Denti 8th Mar 2021 10:06

Of course nothing is forever. Obviously at some point the EU might cease to exist, either by falling apart or morphing into the USE (United States of Europe). However, there are no signs for either thing to happen anytime soon. Will the EU change? Obviously, it always has changed, it will continue to do so, probably at a faster pace now that the UK is outside of its decision making processes. Pro-EU sentiment within the EU is nearly at an all time high at the moment, at least partly thanks to the UK leaving, there are still quite a few countries eager to join, and no, Turkey is just on the books but not going anywhere.

There are currently more credible threats to the union of the four nations in the UK, than there are for the EU to dissolve tomorrow.

And no, the EU is not the attempt at recreating either a British Empire or a German Reich (that never really existed in the first place), as those were nation states trying to swallow up the rest of the continent or earth. It is an international organization, not a state, in which states willingly pool resources to create a better environment for all of them and prevent conflict by being so intertwined that war against each other is simply preposterous. So far that is actually working very well indeed.

pug 8th Mar 2021 10:06


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004342)
Exactly. The Brittish Empire and German Reich is over. So why try and recreate it with the EU?



That's how it was born, that's not it is now. As Greece and the european south has learnt its a tool to impose franco-german economic hegemony on the continent. The Euro is a failed project bringing mass unemployment to countries such as Spain and Greece.

.... but Greece and Spain haven’t left the Union, do you not question why? Of course if you were to compare the EU to the Third Reich or the Soviet Union then they wouldn’t have the freedom to leave and ‘forge their own destiny, to sunlit uplands etc etc..’. With the U.K. having left it shows a fundamental flaw in your argument.

Weren't Greece a little economical with the truth in their financial standing on applying to become an EU member state (and on joining the Euro)? You must question just how much of their financial trouble can be apportioned to the EU.

The Euro argument doesn’t apply to the U.K., we kept to Sterling. So its null and void when discussing Brexit.

Krystal n chips 8th Mar 2021 10:06


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004342)
Exactly. The Brittish Empire and German Reich is over. So why try and recreate it with the EU?



That's how it was born, that's not it is now. As Greece and the european south has learnt its a tool to impose franco-german economic hegemony on the continent. The Euro is a failed project bringing mass unemployment to countries such as Spain and Greece.

Is there an Aussie equivalent of "Mastermind " ?......only if there is, possibly it wouldn't be a good idea if you entered as a contestant with European history, politics and economics being any of your chosen specialist subjects.

ATNotts 8th Mar 2021 10:07


Originally Posted by antheads (Post 11004342)
Exactly. The Brittish Empire and German Reich is over. So why try and recreate it with the EU?



That's how it was born, that's not it is now. As Greece and the european south has learnt its a tool to impose franco-german economic hegemony on the continent. The Euro is a failed project bringing mass unemployment to countries such as Spain and Greece.

Nobody has tried to recreate any empires through the EU, that is nothing but twisting of the facts. Six countries chose to work together in the aftermath of WW2; it could have been seven, but as usual the UK believed it was far too important to join in with them, the only circumstance the UK would have is if it alone could call the shots, as it did in its imperial days. It is very likely that had Churchill believed in the European project enough to throw the UK's hat in with it then we (the UK) could have been a rule maker. As it is when eventually Charles de Gaulle dropped his objections to the UK joining the European Community the rules had been made, and the UK did not have the influence it otherwise could have enjoyed.

The British Empire and Third Reich were born out of conquest, the EU out of consensus. No country is forced to join, and as has been demonstrated in the case of the UK, any country can leave, though only the most stupid and arrogant country would even contemplate doing so. I suppose that France is probably the next most arrogant and self important nation in Europe, after the UK, but I doubt that their population would be so short sighted as to vote to leave.

pug 8th Mar 2021 10:15


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 11004352)
May I mention The Hanseatic League?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League

You may, however I fail to see what relevance it has in the context of this discussion. At around the same time Queen Elizabeth 1 was going around cutting her subjects heads off..

Times have changed.

4468 8th Mar 2021 10:28


The British Empire and Third Reich were born out of conquest, the EU out of consensus.
Other than the UK’s referendum in 2016 how many of the major member states have had referenda on either being a member of a European political Union or the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice or Lisbon?

Or are you just talking about a consensus between politicians and commissioners?

The EU is a country under construction. Nobody knows where is next on the inexorable push towards further integration. But one thing seems assured, populations of this organisation are unlikely to be troubled for their opinion. Because they have a rather inconvenient penchant for giving the ‘wrong’ answer!

OilCan 8th Mar 2021 10:34


Originally Posted by Denti (Post 11004359)
There are currently more credible threats to the union of the four nations in the UK, than there are for the EU to dissolve tomorrow.

...and ain't that the truth, and many of them (Brexiteers) seem quite gleeful of the fact. :(

ATNotts 8th Mar 2021 12:22


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11004378)
Other than the UK’s referendum in 2016 how many of the major member states have had referenda on either being a member of a European political Union or the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice or Lisbon?

Or are you just talking about a consensus between politicians and commissioners?

The EU is a country under construction. Nobody knows where is next on the inexorable push towards further integration. But one thing seems assured, populations of this organisation are unlikely to be troubled for their opinion. Because they have a rather inconvenient penchant for giving the ‘wrong’ answer!

Most European nations, the UK included don't have governance based upon referenda, Switzerland being a notable exception. We generally elect governments to govern, and if ever there was evidence of why referenda should be avoided it is the UK Brexit referendum, and, rather more recently, the Swiss referendum on face coverings which just exposed how racist a large chunk of the Swiss population is. Neither covered their countries with glory.

Sallyann1234 8th Mar 2021 13:55


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11004378)
Other than the UK’s referendum in 2016 how many of the major member states have had referenda on either being a member of a European political Union or the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice or Lisbon?

Or are you just talking about a consensus between politicians and commissioners?

The EU is a country under construction. Nobody knows where is next on the inexorable push towards further integration. But one thing seems assured, populations of this organisation are unlikely to be troubled for their opinion. Because they have a rather inconvenient penchant for giving the ‘wrong’ answer!

You either haven't noticed, or have chosen to ignore, that since 2016 there have been opinion surveys in many EU countries demonstrating approval of the EU to be at an all-time high.

ThorMos 8th Mar 2021 13:58


Originally Posted by 4468 (Post 11004378)
Other than the UK’s referendum in 2016 how many of the major member states have had referenda on either being a member of a European political Union or the treaties of Maastricht, Amsterdam, Nice or Lisbon?

Or are you just talking about a consensus between politicians and commissioners?

The EU is a country under construction. Nobody knows where is next on the inexorable push towards further integration. But one thing seems assured, populations of this organisation are unlikely to be troubled for their opinion. Because they have a rather inconvenient penchant for giving the ‘wrong’ answer!

I can only speak for the people in germany. For our latest Bundestagswahl the voters could have voted for the AFD which
was for leaving the european union. Only a minority did. Since then, and especially since it is clear what a catastrophe
Brexit is, no political party has Dexit on its agenda. The AFD is not mentioning it at all.

Sallyann1234 8th Mar 2021 14:08

It's a sad irony for the Brexiteers that Brexit has not started a breakup of the EU as they hoped. It has on the contrary done exactly the opposite.

Krystal n chips 8th Mar 2021 14:26

I would just like to say Brexit is now having a direct impact on me. My supplies of VW Bockwurst and Schnitzels are currently unavailable.

Thankfully, the various garnishes, and certainly mayo, still are !

rogerg 8th Mar 2021 14:33


It's a sad irony for the Brexiteers that Brexit has not started a breakup of the EU as they hoped.
Where did you get that from?

Mr Mac 8th Mar 2021 14:34


Originally Posted by rogerg (Post 11004550)
Where did you get that from?

rogerg
Probably from a number of people who post as such on here over the last few years.
Kind regards
Mr Mac


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