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andytug 24th Mar 2019 18:46


Originally Posted by Fitter2 (Post 10428597)
Ah, but whose 'facts'? Three years ago the government and treasury facts were of an instsnt financial crash, mass unemployment, etc. Every forcast since then has underestimated the growth in the UK economy (and overestimated the financial stability of our friends in the EU).

That is by far the biggest problem. No one is telling the truth, and quite a lot of them have no idea what the truth is so are making it up as they go along. Not a great way for anyone to come to an informed decision.

Pontius Navigator 24th Mar 2019 21:15


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10428559)
Well you could start with those who think Britain could still save Europe as it apparently did in the last three centuries.

Aside from my mother-in-law who lived through the Blitz I am not sure that is a significant number. Of that original poster who would be under 93?

​​​​​​​I concede the beer swilling louts that are reported regularly in the papers might evince such views.

Pontius Navigator 24th Mar 2019 21:35

Pax


So why no second referendum , parliament cannot decide so ask the people again , democracy is all about being able to change your mind as David Davis said back in 2012.
I think the reasons have been expounded in JB ad nauseam with what options to pose and the time in which to hold it. What to do if there is a similar narrow margin?

Even a GE is no answer as a GE determines which party forms a Government and not which Government will revoke Art 50 or press on.

As they say, we are where we are. Parliament was charged with carrying out the will of the people and should sort out the mess. A PM, prepared to negotiate with the EU is needed.

Kicking the can down the road for days, weeks, months, even years will only achieve uncertainty.

Well maybe not years, 2nd 'meaningful' referendum in two years. Remain - we carry on as before. Leave - we leave asap, no Art 50 two year non sense.

oldairphot 24th Mar 2019 23:52


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10425449)
It's nationalist stupidity like that, that got us into the shit we are in now.

It is also to a degree the attitude and national pride that got the white flag wavers of Europe out of the shit as you put it twice in less than a hundred years

Bob Viking 25th Mar 2019 02:31

SallyAnn et al
 
If you truly believe that the ranks of the Brexiteers are full of such people then I might counter by saying itís the condascending, supercilious attitude of some that got us to where we are now.

As a further aside I feel like mentioning how all of us (despite any claims of righteousness) voted for personal and selfish reasons. Which is absolutely correct.

A guy I knew at work spent weeks preaching about how Brexit is terrible etc and a vote to Remain was for the greater good. He didnít initially mention that his retirement plans involved moving to France and he was therefore very personally invested in the whole freedom of movement element of the EU.

Sallyann. Do you reside in Germany or are you just visiting?

BV

wiggy 25th Mar 2019 07:25


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 10428892)


A guy I knew at work spent weeks preaching about how Brexit is terrible etc and a vote to Remain was for the greater good. He didnít initially mention that his retirement plans involved moving to France and he was therefore very personally invested in the whole freedom of movement element of the EU.

And??

If his retirement plans were well advanced he was hopefully better clued up than many in the UK on the realities of FoM and passport control into/out off the UK, the euro, wether bendy Bananas were really banned from French supermarkets etc..In fact I hope he was seen as valuable resource in whatever arena discussions took place to balance some of the nonsense in the UK MSM...I'd certainly hope the information he came up with and his opinions weren't discounted just on the basis of his retirement plans.

ATNotts 25th Mar 2019 08:27

Exrigger


In my opinion, based on chatting with my circle of friends, colleagues and family, the option to exit under WTO rules will get more votes than accept a deal and together will attract more votes than the remain option, so that will not be the chosen version.
Given that you reside in / near Lincoln that's hardly surprising. Add to that, generally we live in a echo-chamber environment where our friends tend to be the same age group and hold largely the same opinions. That is statistically proven, added to which there is a tendency for the more submissive members of a circle to coalesce behind the views of the stronger members - so what they say to you may be nuanced and exactly what they really think.

That's true of your friends, my friends - everybody's friends.

Pontius Navigator 25th Mar 2019 08:52

Wiggy, did you miss the word immediately?

It may be true that he was well informed but as BV frequently reminds us. Confirmation bias.

A person, having decided on a course of action as being the best for him is unlikely to admit that their view is skewed and wrong. Not declaring their true position at the outset is likely to skew one's views of their argument when you discover their real interests. It is for that reason that Members are required to publish detailed under on their interests and public servants declare hospitality received. The latter also applies in many professions too.

Pontius Navigator 25th Mar 2019 08:56


so what they say to you may be nuanced and exactly the opposite of what they really think.

That's true of your friends, my friends - everybody's friends.
To a point, but I have certainly experienced in my club and my family opposite views and never the scorn and insults seen here.

ATNotts 25th Mar 2019 09:12


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10429048)
To a point, but I have certainly experienced in my club and my family opposite views and never the scorn and insults seen here.

Similar for me, my family (say) they are all remainers, my mother is a convert to remain from leave. Most of my friends (say) the a remainers but I have one friend who is an ardent, flag displaying, brexiteer. We tend not to get too involved in discussion on Brexit as friendship is at the end of the day more important.

Sallyann1234 25th Mar 2019 10:00


Originally Posted by Bob Viking (Post 10428892)
Sallyann. Do you reside in Germany or are you just visiting?

Neither is required to be using a German IP address.

wiggy 25th Mar 2019 10:23


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10429045)
Wiggy, did you miss the word immediately?

It may be true that he was well informed but as BV frequently reminds us. Confirmation bias.

No I didn't miss immediately and I'm not sure that changes the underlying point...but in the spirit of declaring an interest at this stage I'd better declare immediately that I live In France. Also I'll declare I'm an UK ex-mil aviator/instructor (I think BV is possibly too young to have been "one of mine"?) and for quite some time now an aviator in the civil world (British company) so I do have a vague grasp of what confirmation bias means but thanks all for the repeated reminders...


I'd agree there's certainly room for confirmation bias if our semi-fictious retiree simply went around saying as a simple opinion "FoM good, Brexit bad" . OTOH would you dismiss as say, confirmation bias if our now famous semi-fictious retiree came back from time in France and said:

" Despite what the Mail is saying about trade restrictions I was able to buy New Zealand lamb and some bent bananas at the weekend in LeClerc in Calais/Paris/ Bordeaux/ pretty much any other large French town"?

You can't simply yell "confirmation bias" every time you want a fast counter to a "Remain" POV, or observation...but I guess "project fear" is a bit worn out by now

(For the avoidance of any doubt - you yes can buy all that stuff in Aldi/LeClerc/Lidl etc).

NoelEvans 25th Mar 2019 11:03


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10429066)
... but I have one friend who is an ardent, flag displaying, brexiteer. We tend not to get too involved in discussion on Brexit as friendship is at the end of the day more important.

What a nice comment. It would be so nice if a few more on here thought that way.

cattletruck 25th Mar 2019 11:14

I read this in my morning paper today and thought it to be very witty, one of the British Brexit protesters held a placard that read

"Ikea has better cabinets"

Pontius Navigator 25th Mar 2019 11:26

Wiggy, my point really hinged on the failure to declare an
​​​​interest at the outset. The rest of your point is valid. Mine is one of distrust of someone that does not declare their interest. As you say hypothetical, what we don't know is how long out was before his interest was declared.

Exrigger 25th Mar 2019 12:53


So why no second referendum , parliament cannot decide so ask the people again , democracy is all about being able to change your mind as David Davis said back in 2012.
And just as likely to have democratically changed his mind several times since 2012 to what he now thinks is good for him, so that is no excuse.

Buster11 25th Mar 2019 14:02

Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.

Bob Viking 25th Mar 2019 14:35

Buster
 
They take £350M a week of our hard earned money that could be better spent on the NHS...

Iím sorry. I couldnít resist.

BV

Sallyann1234 25th Mar 2019 14:46

Three minutes of laughter or tears

LowNSlow 25th Mar 2019 14:58

Buster11 I think having the EU to blame for anything that wasn't liked by the British public has resulted in our politicians becoming the most incapable shower for generations.
The lack of honesty by every British Prime Minister since Harold Wilson about the intended ever closer political union first proposed by Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter in the 1920's has ended my trust in our so-called leaders which ahs been compounded by out current PM making a fiasco of the leave process.
The major lack of understanding by most people of how far the EU has intruded into our law and how, currently, British Law is legally subservient to EU Law. Your average Remain voter also has, in my experience, a very poor understanding of how the ECB can over-rule any European Central Bank and potentially demand funds from the 28 countries to cover the TARGET2 liabilities.

So to finally answer your question, no direct adverse impact apart from not being able to fly EASA aircraft on my old-school CAA licence but I do think the move of "competencies" to the EU from national establishments like the CAA reduces the country's overall abilities to manage itself.

Sallyanne that clip was excellent and shows that every Government needs a scapegoat and the EU was ours and apparently we were the Eu and the remaining 27's!

Fitter2 25th Mar 2019 15:24


Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.
A small example, compounded many times over by unnecessary regulation forced on us - I have to pay 5 times as much to buy an altimeter that is less accurate and reliable than the one it replaces (but it does come with an offical EASA approved piece of paper).

Pontius Navigator 25th Mar 2019 17:00


Originally Posted by Buster11 (Post 10429346)
Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.

As BV said earlier, selfish reasons. One way is take our money and then giving EU grants for regional projects. In practice we might get something that central Government would not fund. GTW might be able to give examples.

And if that £350m, if people had thought about it, the EU Parliament and MEP a and EU bureaucracy are an extra burden on top of our national Parliament. There will also be a UK layer of civil servants designed to interface with the EU. Whether they will expand or reduce post Brexit I don't know.

Now as it happens I was chatting with a neighbour who is not going to France this year. He then said many of his French friends want Exitfr.




pax britanica 25th Mar 2019 17:40

While some quitters here make some good points about he Eus failings there is nothing to suggest our governments are any better. In any event those agrguements would have more credibility is used by people like Boris-but oh no he and the Borisgraph have huge headlines about Moses and Egypt and Let my people go, well the Pharoahs did let them go and the wandered around in the wilderness for 40 years and Moses died along with a lot of others.

Does n't the man think and some people reckon he should be PM -what do they want, the Eu to double the bill for leaving.
Of course all I want is for the people to speak again now they have had a chance to 'sober up' as it were , three years is a bloody long time in politics and things do change and all elections overturn or change the result of a previous democratic election, after one person one vote democracy is all about the chance to change your mind, except in seems in this case. Wonder why, too many ERG people shorting the UK economy or the Pound, taking foreign money and not delivering the goods,

And oh lets democratically change the PM after three years as she isn't as good a we thought she would be but people cannot have a vote three years later -hypercrisy (sic)

Harley Quinn 25th Mar 2019 18:52


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10429399)
Buster11 I think having the EU to blame for anything that wasn't liked by the British public has resulted in our politicians becoming the most incapable shower for generations.
The lack of honesty by every British Prime Minister since Harold Wilson about the intended ever closer political union first proposed by Jean Monnet and Arthur Salter in the 1920's has ended my trust in our so-called leaders which ahs been compounded by out current PM making a fiasco of the leave process.
The major lack of understanding by most people of how far the EU has intruded into our law and how, currently, British Law is legally subservient to EU Law. Your average Remain voter also has, in my experience, a very poor understanding of how the ECB can over-rule any European Central Bank and potentially demand funds from the 28 countries to cover the TARGET2 liabilities.

So to finally answer your question, no direct adverse impact apart from not being able to fly EASA aircraft on my old-school CAA licence but I do think the move of "competencies" to the EU from national establishments like the CAA reduces the country's overall abilities to manage itself.

Sallyanne that clip was excellent and shows that every Government needs a scapegoat and the EU was ours and apparently we were the Eu and the remaining 27's!

Very well put.

Mike6567 25th Mar 2019 19:40


Originally Posted by Buster11 (Post 10429346)
Could some of those who favour Brexit tell us exactly what aspects of Britain's EU membership have affected them personally in an adverse way.

Does not affect me personally but

Didn't they mess about with the Flight Time Limitations rules increasing the possibility of fatigue?

Headstone 25th Mar 2019 21:44

Some mention has been made above about having 3 options on a second referendum. This would be even more divisive than the present situation. Yes that may seem impossible but it would. Have more than one option and you run the very strong risk of the winning selection having less than 50% of support. Perhaps less than 45%. Now I know that most MPs and many contributors to PPRUNE don't give a toss for a majority vote when it conflicts with their superior thinking. Can't have "The Tyranny of The Majority" can we?

To satisfy most people if there were 3 options they would probably say something along the lines of -

1. Just leave and take our chances
2. Ask the EU pretty please can we just forget the last 3 years
3. Accept the only withdrawal agreement on the table.

Options 2 and 3 above were not mine but suggestions by Anna Soubry on Channel 4 news last week. Of course option 1 was what the people voted for in the referendum so that was not in her options and would obviously not be considered for the ballot paper.

Not one Remainer nor a great number of Leavers want option 3 which was suggested by Soubry and so I have to think that only having these 2 options appear to be a form of Gerrymandering. The remain camp get to vote on exactly what they want. Some leavers may be happy with the present offer and vote for it but what about those who want to leave? They do not want to have what they consider a deal whereby we do not leave so how do they vote? Of course I forgot, I will paraphrase one contributor to this thread, only Morons who got us into this mess would vote for leave and an intelligent person's vote is worth more than theirs so they don't count!

So why not rerun it with options 1 and 2 - silly me, we have had that vote. We did t 3 years ago which is why it will never happen in case Remain loses. Lessons have been taken from Sturgeon who although always going on about IndeyRef 2 will not call it in case she loses again.

Mind you whatever options were on the ballot paper would they lie again about respecting the vote? Well no doubt they would immediately fall behind the result if it was to have our prime minister go to a railway carriage in a siding in some forest in Europe and having to sign a surrender document. Should option 1 win then MPs would probably not respect it , well in all likelihood not respect it at all, as on matters surrounding the EU there is a pattern of running the vote multiple times until the right answer is given then quickly wrapping things up.

If I was an EU leader and we went back cap in hand asking to cancel our leaving option there would be a price to pay. I would demand, quite rightly, that we pay back all the money they spent on this pointless exercise through no fault of the EU. Plus if not actually joining the Euro we would, to show how we intended to be good Europeans in the future, have to have the Bank of England support the Euro in it's next inevitable crisis. Might even have to, horror of horrors, drive on the right!

NoelEvans 25th Mar 2019 21:58

From RTE today:

The economic and political uncertainty surrounding Brexit is a constant in our news cycle since the referendum in the UK in 2016 and there is little sign of the uncertainty dissipating. Estimates of Ireland's national level of Brexit trade-related risk exposure are in the region of 10% of GDP. Estimates of this magnitude are not surprising, given our trade and business links to the UK.

Irelandís small businesses particularly exposed to Brexit. In Ireland, over 90% of businesses are micro-businesses with less than 10 employees and almost eight percent are small businesses with between 10 and 49 employees.
Maybe it would be in their interest to convince the EU that 'cutting the UK some slack' in a form of easing off on the 'Backstop' might be very, very, very beneficial?


About how the EU has detrimentally affected us: the EU FTLs have most definitely been the biggest threat to airline safety in Britain. The old CAA FTLs were part of a gradual evolution of improvements, while the EU's FTLs were short-term a political 'fix'.

WingNut60 25th Mar 2019 22:00

Perhaps any referendum should include provision for a further (binding this time) referendum in 3 years time, in case everyone has a further change of mind - which they probably will.

Headstone 25th Mar 2019 22:07

Why should one in 3 years time be binding and the 2016 and any other one before 3 years time not be binding?
People may change their minds again in 6 years or 9 years or 50 years.

Sprogget 25th Mar 2019 22:07


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10429722)
From RTE today:


Maybe it would be in their interest to convince the EU that 'cutting the UK some slack' in a form of easing off on the 'Backstop' might be very, very, very beneficial?

Earlier you complained about the quality of debate. And here you are advocating in effect an open back door into the EU for anything from horse meat to terrorists, the kind of open border that no country in the world permits.

WingNut60 26th Mar 2019 00:23


Originally Posted by Headstone (Post 10429731)
Why should one in 3 years time be binding and the 2016 and any other one before 3 years time not be binding?
People may change their minds again in 6 years or 9 years or 50 years.

If the first one wasn't binding then the second one shouldn't be either.
By the time you get to the third one you should all have made up your minds and, hopefully, should have realised that referendums are supposed to be binding.

Mr Mac 26th Mar 2019 03:46

In Singapore, and just caught the latest twist. It does seem to be making us the laughing stock of the political world, but we do need another referendum now that the ramifications of the actions (leave or stay) are becoming ever clearer to all. I do believe the blinkers are coming off on both sides, and due to that I would say to get some form of closure you need to have the "peoples vote " or what ever you want to call it. Business needs some comfort, and believe me WTO is not it from where my business is anyway. It would be a good idea to get this done quickly and get this resolved, to allow everyone to get on with their lives / work, and plan for the future if possible, because this is not going to end well for UK Plc at the moment. As for Boris Johnson and the Conservative party, it will be a very long time before this man ticks their particular box at an election, or funds anything to do with them.
Regards
Mr Mac

NoelEvans 26th Mar 2019 08:18


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10429732)
Earlier you complained about the quality of debate. And here you are advocating in effect an open back door into the EU for anything from horse meat to terrorists, the kind of open border that no country in the world permits.

I am not advocating that, it appears that the Irish government are advocating it: [Irish] Government is not preparing for a hard border post-Brexit.

The "kind of open border that no country in the world permits", you say. Have you ever travelled in and out of Switzerland? Switzerland is outside the EU and outside the Customs Union, but is in the Schengen Area. I have walked unhindered across the Swiss/French border many times. Actually, the Irish are looking at exactly that border as a model for how a future Eire/Northern Ireland border could work: Irish authorities are seeing Switzerland as a model for our frontier with North. Just to recap what we would have after Britain leaves the EU: Britain will be outside the EU and the Customs Area, but is in the Common Travel Area (permitting the free movement of people between Eire and Britain), an almost identical position for the Eire/Britain land border as exists with Switzerland and all its EU neighbours. So exactly what you say "no country in the world permits" actually exists.

Now let's look at you other comment: "an open back door into the EU for anything from horse meat to terrorists". Horse meat from the UK into the EU? Have you ever been into any supermarkets in the EU? If you have you would have had a far, far better chance of buying horse meat that you would ever have had in the UK, unless it had been part of that illegal horse meat that had been brought in from the EU a while back. Terrorist using the UK as a back door to get anywhere? Where do you get that from? Mrs Merkel provided a far bigger back door for that one than any Northern Irish border could ever provide!

However, the problems facing the Republic of Ireland: ESRI warns disorderly Brexit could cost 80,000 Irish jobs. If ANY country needs Britain to leave with a deal, it is the Republic of Ireland (read that article to see all the scenarios discussed) and a disorderly no-deal would be a disaster to their economy. Maybe their government should be thinking about that rather than digging their heels in and saying 'the Backstop is non-negotiable'.The border can be dealt with, as Switzerland has shown; that level of economic 'hit' south of the border would be very, very, very difficult to deal with.

A one-line concession on the Backstop could get the 'Brexit deal' through the UK Parliament tomorrow and all the pain and worry will disappear. But that is for the Republic of Ireland's politicians to decide. If they stick to their 'principles' they will be trashing their country which would suffer from the effects of Brexit far, far more than any other country in Europe.

Exrigger 26th Mar 2019 09:01

NoelEvans:

The problem you have is that common sense and intelligence have long been lost within political circles, they are too busy trying to get one over on others, either individually or in small pockets of like minded individuals, for selfish reasons rather than for the good of the whole, it really is like watching a village idiot competition to find who is the most stupid.

Sprogget 26th Mar 2019 10:13


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10430044)
I am not advocating that, it appears that the Irish government are advocating it: [Irish] Government is not preparing for a hard border post-Brexit.

The "kind of open border that no country in the world permits", you say. Have you ever travelled in and out of Switzerland? Switzerland is outside the EU and outside the Customs Union, but is in the Schengen Area. I have walked unhindered across the Swiss/French border many times. Actually, the Irish are looking at exactly that border as a model for how a future Eire/Northern Ireland border could work: Irish authorities are seeing Switzerland as a model for our frontier with North. Just to recap what we would have after Britain leaves the EU: Britain will be outside the EU and the Customs Area, but is in the Common Travel Area (permitting the free movement of people between Eire and Britain), an almost identical position for the Eire/Britain land border as exists with Switzerland and all its EU neighbours. So exactly what you say "no country in the world permits" actually exists.

Now let's look at you other comment: "an open back door into the EU for anything from horse meat to terrorists". Horse meat from the UK into the EU? Have you ever been into any supermarkets in the EU? If you have you would have had a far, far better chance of buying horse meat that you would ever have had in the UK, unless it had been part of that illegal horse meat that had been brought in from the EU a while back. Terrorist using the UK as a back door to get anywhere? Where do you get that from? Mrs Merkel provided a far bigger back door for that one than any Northern Irish border could ever provide!

However, the problems facing the Republic of Ireland: ESRI warns disorderly Brexit could cost 80,000 Irish jobs. If ANY country needs Britain to leave with a deal, it is the Republic of Ireland (read that article to see all the scenarios discussed) and a disorderly no-deal would be a disaster to their economy. Maybe their government should be thinking about that rather than digging their heels in and saying 'the Backstop is non-negotiable'.The border can be dealt with, as Switzerland has shown; that level of economic 'hit' south of the border would be very, very, very difficult to deal with.

A one-line concession on the Backstop could get the 'Brexit deal' through the UK Parliament tomorrow and all the pain and worry will disappear. But that is for the Republic of Ireland's politicians to decide. If they stick to their 'principles' they will be trashing their country which would suffer from the effects of Brexit far, far more than any other country in Europe.

With respect Noel, Schengen is easier to understand than to spell. Quite how you've managed not to is up there with the greatest hits of Brexiters. You may well be able to cross the Swiss border unhindered and yes I have done it many times, that's the point of Schengen. Now try doing it with a 44 ton artic loaded with 26 pallets of unicorns from a country OUTSIDE of the Schengen area & tell report back to us here with your experiences - here's a clue it won't be even close what you typed.

You have though, unwittingly, hit on the key problem, although not grasped it, sadly. It's a reliable measure of the psychological suspension of disbelief encountered here daily that a Brexiter and always a Brexiter will take a comment such as the Horse meat one, clearly & obviously intended to make a wider point and reduce it to a specific, irrelevant conclusion.

Me: You can't have an open border between EU territory & third countries because it leaves an open door for all sorts. (horse meat, terrorists etc.)
Brexiter: Pah, you know nothing, they eat loads of horse meat in Europe.

This kind of disingenuous nonsense is so tiring & we're back onto the quality of debate. But when I say disingenuous, I am possibly crediting you with at least a form of intelligence that It's possible you don't deserve and here's why. You overlook the point about an open border not once but twice by talking about terrorists imported into Germany by Merkel. This is a few things - a) wrong b) a sneer at possibly the greatest act of compassionate humanitarianism carried out by a western government this century to date c) extreme UKIPY bollocks d) missing the point by a mile which for your benefit is relaxing border controls into sovereign territory, thus creating a smuggler's paradise that no nation & certainly not the EU would permit.

I suspect therefore, you may not be sufficiently intelligent to meet your own criteria of raising the debate & whilst no doubt you will take this as arrogant remainer snark, unfortunately, you do keep on proving it in writing.

Onto the final point, Ireland. Again, you tread a well worn path, beloved of Brexiters that Ireland, an independent sovereign nation should bend over backward to accommodate the mess leave politicians created. An abdication of responsibility if ever I saw one but wholly usual amongst quitters. Now, let's turn that around & imagine Ireland voted out & were demanding the UK repeal of the four pillars of the EU (what you called 'their principles' in as arrogant a display of contempt as one could imagine) You would be screaming like a stuck pig that we were being dictated to by a pack of bog trotters & who do they think they are?

The arrogance of leavers shouldn't astound me by now, yet somehow, the same dreary arguments surface every day with minor variations to my amazement & there you are bemoaning the quality of debate when it's as plain as day you've decided to bypass reality once more in favour of a pack of hopeless tropes & people wonder why we're in this mess. SMH.

Exrigger 26th Mar 2019 10:30


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10430160)
The arrogance of leavers shouldn't astound me by now, yet somehow, the same dreary arguments surface every day with minor variations to my amazement & there you are bemoaning the quality of debate when it's as plain as day you've decided to bypass reality once more in favour of a pack of hopeless tropes & people wonder why we're in this mess. SMH.

Reading posts of yours, and others from people of the same mind set, never astounds me with the level of arrogance and insults with little substance that never changes, but always considered as the only correct opinion on the subject, and that comment above applies even more so to you and a few others.

Sprogget 26th Mar 2019 10:32


Originally Posted by Exrigger (Post 10430179)
Reading posts of yours, and others from people of the same mind set, never astounds me with the level of arrogance and insults with little substance that never changes, but always considered as the only correct opinion on the subject, and that comment above applies even more so to you and a few others.

Again, this is noted but if you can only see this & not at least take on the issues then you're just another dude on an internet forum whining about etiquette while the building burns around you.

pax britanica 26th Mar 2019 10:44

Isnt the chaos in Parliament indicative of the fact that there is no coherent plan or proposal for brexit or after brexit. Its useless saying three years ago the country voted for one option when three years later almost everything that was said about leaving was exaggerated or plain untrue .

Si its either a general election or a second referendum , nothing else works, and how can you have a general election which in theory could vote every same m back into another stalemate when the re is only one issue on the table ie another referendum-where are quitters so terrified of the the idea I wonder , Nissan , Honda, City banks, shortages etc etc and as for the idea of taking back control -to give to Parliament in its present state

Exrigger 26th Mar 2019 10:44


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10430183)
Again, this is noted but if you can only see this & not at least take on the issues then you're just another dude on an internet forum whining about etiquette while the building burns around you.

Just because I took time out from the issues of life and living to pass an opinion on your posts does not make me 'just another dude on the internet forum whining about etiquette', also trying to debate sensibly with you and your ilk is a waste of time as you do not accept anyone's opinion that differs from yours, you do come across as tad immature, an opinion which could be supported by your chosen user name.


NoelEvans 26th Mar 2019 11:00


Originally Posted by Sprogget (Post 10430160)
With respect Noel, Schengen is easier to understand than to spell. Quite how you've managed not to is up there with the greatest hits of Brexiters. You may well be able to cross the Swiss border unhindered and yes I have done it many times, that's the point of Schengen. Now try doing it with a 44 ton artic loaded with 26 pallets of unicorns from a country OUTSIDE of the Schengen area & tell report back to us here with your experiences - here's a clue it won't be even close what you typed.

You have though, unwittingly, hit on the key problem, although not grasped it, sadly. It's a reliable measure of the psychological suspension of disbelief encountered here daily that a Brexiter and always a Brexiter will take a comment such as the Horse meat one, clearly & obviously intended to make a wider point and reduce it to a specific, irrelevant conclusion.

Me: You can't have an open border between EU territory & third countries because it leaves an open door for all sorts. (horse meat, terrorists etc.)
Brexiter: Pah, you know nothing, they eat loads of horse meat in Europe.

This kind of disingenuous nonsense is so tiring & we're back onto the quality of debate. But when I say disingenuous, I am possibly crediting you with at least a form of intelligence that It's possible you don't deserve and here's why. You overlook the point about an open border not once but twice by talking about terrorists imported into Germany by Merkel. This is a few things - a) wrong b) a sneer at possibly the greatest act of compassionate humanitarianism carried out by a western government this century to date c) extreme UKIPY bollocks d) missing the point by a mile which for your benefit is relaxing border controls into sovereign territory, thus creating a smuggler's paradise that no nation & certainly not the EU would permit.

I suspect therefore, you may not be sufficiently intelligent to meet your own criteria of raising the debate & whilst no doubt you will take this as arrogant remainer snark, unfortunately, you do keep on proving it in writing.

Onto the final point, Ireland. Again, you tread a well worn path, beloved of Brexiters that Ireland, an independent sovereign nation should bend over backward to accommodate the mess leave politicians created. An abdication of responsibility if ever I saw one but wholly usual amongst quitters. Now, let's turn that around & imagine Ireland voted out & were demanding the UK repeal of the four pillars of the EU (what you called 'their principles' in as arrogant a display of contempt as one could imagine) You would be screaming like a stuck pig that we were being dictated to by a pack of bog trotters & who do they think they are?

The arrogance of leavers shouldn't astound me by now, yet somehow, the same dreary arguments surface every day with minor variations to my amazement & there you are bemoaning the quality of debate when it's as plain as day you've decided to bypass reality once more in favour of a pack of hopeless tropes & people wonder why we're in this mess. SMH.

But specifically

... try doing it with a 44 ton artic loaded with 26 pallets of unicorns from a country OUTSIDE of the Schengen area ...
a. From which country OUTSIDE the Schengen Area can you cross the border into Switzerland?
b. What has Schengen got to do with "a 44 ton artic loaded with 26 pallets of unicorns"?

And if my comments were such a load of 'tosh', why are the Irish considering it? Irish authorities are seeing Switzerland as a model for our frontier with North

I don't want the Irish to give up any of their 'pillars'. The Irish have been insisting on the 'backstop'. Things going wrong will hurt them most. That 'Swiss model' that they are seeing as a model for their frontier with the North is a common-sense way of avoiding things going wrong. They can use that and keep all their pillars, the same way that France, Germany, Austria and Italy seem to manage to do. That will work well for everyone and that one-line concession from them could have this all Brexit 'problem' tidied up by the end of the week.

I am answering in calm, measured language and using some reasoning simply because I look forward to you showing yourself up with your next reply.


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