PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   BREXIT (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/619673-brexit.html)

VP959 22nd Mar 2019 22:40


Originally Posted by old,not bold (Post 10427137)
Headstone, yes, yes, we all know that the rules of the referendum meant that a simple majority of those who voted won the day.

But the unavoidable fact is that 63% of eligible voters did not vote to leave, while 37% did. It's just a factual demographic, not a debating point about how fair it all was. Or indeed about how stupid the referendum was in the first place.

That demographic means that spouting on about "the will of the British People" is just nonsense. It was not the will of the British people to leave, any more than it was the will of the British people to remain. It was the will of 37% of eligible voters to leave, and that's it.

For what it's worth, I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit, once they understood, as the rest of us have come to understand, what a catastrophe that would be for the UK.

The reality was that, for whatever reason, about 28% of the electorate chose not to vote, or couldn't be arsed (we don't know which), about 35% voted to remain and about 37% voted to leave.

It's not reasonable to assume that the ~28% that didn't vote hold any particular view; the most rational thing to do is to assume that they were either genuinely undecided, or couldn't care less, which amounts to the same thing, in terms of the outcome. Perhaps we should choose to split the non-voters 50/50 and present the results as 51% leave, 49% remain, as that seems to fall into line with what actually happened. Assuming that the 28% of non-voters would have all voted to remain, or all voted to leave, seems a hell of a stretch either way.

When I voted I didn't want a "no deal" exit, but frankly I've been of the view that it would be far and away the better option over the past few weeks, given the way our government have been squabbling like children.

Fareastdriver 22nd Mar 2019 22:55


I very much doubt that a majority of those who voted "Leave" wanted a No Deal exit,
Who mentioned a 'Deal' during the Referendum?

Headstone 22nd Mar 2019 23:42

Why all the noise now about percentages?
No one ever gave a toss when Tony B. Liar got an overwhelming majority in the HoC despite, at a guess, only around 30% of total eligible people voting for him. In fact around half a million less votes than Major achieved in 1992 when he had the tiniest of majorities. It is the way our system works so feel free to find a better way. We had a vote on proportional representation which would probably have meant a dramatic change with endless and probably ever changing coalitions much like the DUP propping up May, but that was rejected. No one moaned about numbers for or against or percentages on that issue.
Using the moans about percentages above we should not have even remained the EEC in the 1975 vote if you add up the ones who didn't vote and those who voted against. Approx 17 million for remain in the EEC, 8 million against and 15 million couldn't be bothered to express an opinion.
The fact is THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO COULD BE BOTHERED TO VOTE DECIDE TO VOTE LEAVE.
There I have committed the cardinal sin of capitals in emails/posts but how many times do remainers want it spelt out?

And of course as one person has just pointed out - There was no option on what kind if deal you wanted if you voted to leave. Any referendum has to be a binary choice. Give 3 choices and you will never break the 50% level - which of course LEAVE DID. (Aren't I a cheeky scamp I put things in capitals again and even typed it very slowly for the hard of understanding.)

Headstone 22nd Mar 2019 23:59

Petition
 
I wasn't going to bother but here is something on this petition just for Old, not Bold.
The BBC nailed it's colours to the mast by saying it is a wonderful thing and their tame experts say we can discount "Bots" making lots of votes so it is a genuine reflection of the people. Utter, utter nonsense. As genuine as voting in some banana republic. How many email addresses do PPruners have? Well for me there is work of course, personal one at home, my wife used our personal one for her gym membership so I have to have another GMAIL one for my gym membership, I am sec of a local club and have an email address there. So that is 4 valid ones plus my email provider has offered my 5 more email addresses. So that's 9 votes straight off before I even sign up for any other service. These votes are not checked against a register so no one has any idea how many times someone votes
Of course no PPruner would stoop that low but how many other people are. It is as valid as that infamous election for the mayor of Tower Hamlets.

ricardian 23rd Mar 2019 00:45

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....2d168fd56b.jpg

Barksdale Boy 23rd Mar 2019 02:19

Ricardian

You've brightened up a grey morning here in HK!

On eyre 23rd Mar 2019 03:29

The way you lot are going in the mother country you are likely to lose WWIII without really trying ��

Bob Viking 23rd Mar 2019 05:49

Non Voters
 
We will never know how the 28% that didnít vote in the referendum truly felt. However, I personally think there is a good chance that a large proportion of them may have thought about voting leave but were so sure the vote wouldnít get through that they didnít bother.

The trouble is none of us can assume how they might have voted and use it as evidence either way.

BV

old,not bold 23rd Mar 2019 10:34

That's odd; I personally think there is a good chance that a large proportion of them may have thought about voting remain but were so sure the remain vote would get through that they didn’t bother.

People, eh?

At the risk of repetition, my point is that only 37% voted to leave. A fractionally smaller number voted to remain, and the rest couldn't give a toss, or thought that the outcome they wanted was secure without their vote, so didn't bother.

A "democratic" decision to leave, maybe. The "Will Of The British People", never. If May had decided to take account of the views of majority who did not vote Remain while formulating an Exit deal, and thereby achieve national unity before going near the EU, would would be leaving on 29th March with a good deal and a united nation.

She did not do that, choosing instead to pander to the mob as represented by Johnson, Gove et al. Now, on March 23rd, after having to beg the EU for more time to sort out what we want to do, hints are being dropped that she might talk to people other than the far right so as to work out a deal that the House of Commons can accept.

By the way.... someone asked "Who mentioned a 'Deal during the Referendum?" The Leave campaign did. They said that the EU would fall over themselves to do a fantastic deal to keep the UK as a market for the EU. You remember, "they need us more than we need them", all that crap. Those who said, politely, "actually they don't, if you look at the figures" were immediately shouted down as "scaremongers". Funny old world, isn't it. I see that one outcome of the present farce might be that Jacob Rees-Mogg might become Prime Minister. If we have sunk so low in our politics and self-esteem to do that we will never recover.

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 10:52


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10425449)
It's nationalist stupidity like that, that got us into the shit we are in now.

It's national stupidity in Europe that got them into the position where Britain needed to help liberate them. And many are concerned about Europe returning to that 'national stupidity'. It could be argued that it is best for Britain to be on the outside, as it was in the past, if Britain is to be able to help to save Europe from itself, as Britain has done so often in the past from that position 'outside' Europe. The 'new Napoleon' bringing in troops against his own people should be one of the many warning bells about how things are going wrong 'across there'.

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 11:03


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427470)
It's national stupidity in Europe that got them into the position where Britain needed to help liberate them. And many are concerned about Europe returning to that 'national stupidity'. It could be argued that it is best for Britain to be on the outside, as it was in the past, if Britain is to be able to help to save Europe from itself, as Britain has done so often in the past from that position 'outside' Europe. The 'new Napoleon' bringing in troops against his own people should be one of the many warning bells about how things are going wrong 'across there'.

How about that for Project Frighten!

How do you think an impoverished Disunited Kingdom is going to protect Europe from itself - send HMS Queen Elizabeth up the Rhine?

​​​We renounced any significant influence in Europe in May 2016.

ThorMos 23rd Mar 2019 11:04


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427470)
It's national stupidity in Europe that got them into the position where Britain needed to help liberate them. And many are concerned about Europe returning to that 'national stupidity'. It could be argued that it is best for Britain to be on the outside, as it was in the past, if Britain is to be able to help to save Europe from itself, as Britain has done so often in the past from that position 'outside' Europe. The 'new Napoleon' bringing in troops against his own people should be one of the many warning bells about how things are going wrong 'across there'.

oh yeah, the wars, again... Hasn't been mentioned for at least three posts...

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 11:09

Stop putting any effort into thinking about what the people who didn't bother to vote thought. They didn't bother then so we shouldn't bother about them now.

But a larger percentage of the electorate did bother to vote than the percentage that bothered to vote in elections for the past six governments in the past quarter century. So please spend a bit more time respecting what the voters who bothered to vote voted for.

I won't go into the statistics as Headstone has already done so so well.

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 11:24


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10427484)
How about that for Project Frighten!

How do you think an impoverished Disunited Kingdom is going to protect Europe from itself - send HMS Queen Elizabeth up the Rhine?

​​​We renounced any significant influence in Europe in May 2016.

The world has changed and answers to problems are not always military any more. I can't predict how it will happen this time but maybe Britain could help with some kind of 'Marshal Plan' after the 'yellow vests' and Macron's army, German motor manufacturers cheating, Italian budget chaos, Belgian disunity, Hungarian immigration policies, Spanish separatism problems, and the various 'populist' uprisings have brought Europe to its economic knees. However it happens, Britain will be able to help best from the outside, as they did so successfully when they stepped in from the outside to help save Europe from itself in the 18th and 19th Centuries and twice in the 20th Century. I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time, but that (as every time in the past) will depend on the nature of chaos that the Europeans bring on themselves.

Sprogget 23rd Mar 2019 11:24

Classic of the genre. Write a load of sepia tinted flapdoodle, invoking the war, dopey foreigners, rule Britannia etc. Rightly get pelters for being stupid beyond reason, retort with words to the effect that we won, get over it. Brexit - don't like our arguments? Don't worry, we've got plenty more round the back.

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 11:25


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427490)
So please spend a bit more time respecting what the voters who bothered to vote voted for.

You mean the easiest trade deal ever?
£350million that we would rather spend on the NHS?
Yes, a lot of people voted for that. Didn't get it though.

It's slightly amusing to hear the rising note of panic in the voices of those who fear their lies have been exposed and there might be a minuscule chance of victory being snatched from their grasp. Keep it up folks!

Exrigger 23rd Mar 2019 11:30

It is interesting to note that there is a feeling amongst some remain voters on others sites, that Westminster is not taking seriously the petition numbers or those going on the march today in London, but those same people are more than happy for at least 17.2 million not to be taken seriously. :E

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 11:33


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10427510)
You mean the easiest trade deal ever?
£350million that we would rather spend on the NHS?
Yes, a lot of people voted for that. Didn't get it though.

It's slightly amusing to hear the rising note of panic in the voices of those who fear their lies have been exposed and there might be a minuscule chance of victory being snatched from their grasp. Keep it up folks

Let's not get into a 'comparing lies' spat. The Remoaners have too many to list easily (just for a start, remember the 800,000 job losses and the immediate need for an Emergency Budget?). And the Remoaners just stick to that '£360m on the NHS' etc., when we haven't even left the EU yet! So any imbalance of 'lies' tips solidly to the Remoaners side. I see panic from the Remoaners. Keep it up, it's "entertaining"!

Sallyann1234 23rd Mar 2019 11:33


Originally Posted by NoelEvans (Post 10427505)
The world has changed and answers to problems are not always military any more. I can't predict how it will happen this time but maybe Britain could help with some kind of 'Marshal Plan' after the 'yellow vests' and Macron's army, German motor manufacturers cheating, Italian budget chaos, Belgian disunity, Hungarian immigration policies, Spanish separatism problems, and the various 'populist' uprisings have brought Europe to its economic knees. However it happens, Britain will be able to help best from the outside, as they did so successfully when they stepped in from the outside to help save Europe from itself in the 18th and 19th Centuries and twice in the 20th Century. I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time, but that (as every time in the past) will depend on the nature of chaos that the Europeans bring on themselves.

Laughable. Just plain laughable.
I'm copying it just in case you feel ashamed and decide to delete it.

NoelEvans 23rd Mar 2019 11:40

I am not at all ashamed of it, especially:

I can't predict how it will happen this time ... I just hope that we manage to avoid military involvement next time...
I am glad that you have 'saved' it to highlight it. It can be a 'quick reference' for when any of those concerns of mine become far more serious. When your ridicule of it will become laughable.


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:04.


Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.