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Exrigger, if we left without a deal we would have a hard border, that is a fact. So how can you operate to a just in time production model with a hard border? How could you be in a position to avoid stockpiling? Evidence based is listening to industry, not talking to people who service your car. Ever thought that nobody has done it because it’s so unpalatable as to make it unworkable? Are you seriously advocating an experiment? You are talking in philosophies, my argument remains. You cannot provide a solid argument for why we would definitely be better off outside, that is your job as a leave advocate to do. It is the leave argument that is in essence talking in maybes, we’re currently in the EU, I’m basing my argument on our current membership if the EU. I merely want things to remain the same. |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 10445395)
This is a reasonable argument, sadly it is one that Cameron et al might have spelt out but like many they chose to declare the sky would fall in on Exit Friday.
Where we can largely be laid at his door for not preparing the remain argument on evidence based facts. |
Pug, there is no reason that JIT cannot work through a hard border. If that was true then JIT would be limited to countries within the EU.
JIT though a hard border could undoubtedly be longer than no border, just as it is longer between the continent and within the continent today. The difference is simply factoring in the longer/slower supply chain. It is Brexit uncertainty that requires stockpiling and diversion of capital to stock. This is essentially a short term issue until the new delivery times are established and new JIT is in place. A stockpile buffer may be maintained, with a tie up of capital, or the stock pile may be drawn down. This would obviously have an effect on primary producers. |
Originally Posted by pug
(Post 10445413)
.., I’m basing my argument on our current membership if the EU. I merely want things to remain the same. People wanted change in the face of years of austerity. They voted leave, with the hope of a better future. The 'disaster' forecast by the remain campaign for the day after a 'leave' vote all turned out to be hot air. Why believe similar forecasts now? |
Regarding 'just in time': I know a company that had its output come to a grinding halt as a result of that unpronounceable Icelandic volcano. Their vital supplies were coming (by air) from Malaysia. Last I checked Malaysia isn't in the EU.
Regarding motor manufacturing where 'supply of parts', etc. and then 'exporting to the EU' would be a 'problem' if Britain was not in the EU: There have been two German (VW) cars in our family over the last several years that were manufactured in South Africa. Last I checked South Africa isn't in the EU. |
But they won't remain the same. The EU is on the brink of very big changes itself and may 'remainers' are going to become rather horrified at what their 'darling' EU is likely to become. Expect some shocks at the EU Parliament elections. With or without Britain participating. |
Originally Posted by pug
(Post 10445413)
Exrigger, if we left without a deal we would have a hard border, that is a fact. So how can you operate to a just in time production model with a hard border? How could you not be in a position to avoid stockpiling? Evidence based is listening to industry, not talking to people who service your car. Ever thought that nobody has done it because it’s so unpalatable as to make it unworkable? Are you seriously advocating an experiment? You are talking in philosophies, my argument remains. You cannot provide a solid argument for why we would definitely be better off outside, that is your job as a leave advocate to do. It is the leave argument that is in essence talking in maybes, we’re currently in the EU, I’m basing my argument on our current membership if the EU. I merely want things to remain the same. So how can you operate to a just in time production model with a hard border? How could you not be in a position to avoid stockpiling? Evidence based is listening to industry, not talking to people who service your car. Ever thought that nobody has done it because it’s so unpalatable as to make it unworkable? Are you seriously advocating an experiment? I do believe we would be better out of the EU given the economic issues the main contributors are currently having, or are shortly forecasted to be having, and do not want to see the UK economy falling because of that, I also do not think that the unified EU dream which is so far from the original common market the UK joined is actually compatible with the UK population, or for that matter, going by the rumblings in other European countries, they don’t either. I’m basing my argument on our current membership if the EU. I merely want things to remain the same. |
Noel and Others
LEAVE - NOW. NO DEAL. Get on with it. But, oh, sorry, she scuppered that. Time for Boris. |
Originally Posted by NoelEvans
(Post 10445429)
I never ever heard 'austerity' used as a reason to vote either way...
If you don't believe me Googling something like...oh, "Austerity and the Brexit Vote" and take a look at the results..(beware of confirmation bias :) |
Regarding JIT; https://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-s...me-production/ Im not sure where you take your car to get serviced, but middle management positions will be just as informed as anyone else. I know of one leave voter who’s very business relies solely on funding from the EU. His argument? The Government will take on the funding. That is a managing director on the automotive training industry. No i I most certainly do not want your experiment to have a very real threat to my way of life, and the way of life for many others. To use an analogy, if I were to walk into a bank asking for a mortgage, the bank would means test me. They would want some certainty that I would be able to make my payments. They most certainly not lend me the money if I were to tell them I was leaving my job but may be able to get a better job in future. This is why business wants certainty, and why there are great strives to take no deal off the table. We are are not going to agree on this subject, i know that now and I knew it when I first posted. I’ve made the point a number of times now, in order to sway a remain voter you must be able to convince them that the change you are proposing is going to in all probability improve the current situation. You can’t, and nobody has yet made a compelling argument for leaving, rather you try to pick apart my argument with suppositions. |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 10445440)
... they voted whichever way they did at the referendum as a means of simply giving Westminster/the established ruling classes a kicking.....
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You know what I like about this forum is that it pretty much represents British reasonableness. I confess that I've deliberately been provocative, well to extent that I feel isn't too provocative. I hold back.
But disappointingly British no English reasonableness is absent in the real world. Yes the EU is flawed. We all know that. But Brexit is also flawed. Which is worse? |
Originally Posted by pug
(Post 10445416)
Agree entirely that remain fought a poor campaign. However, facts such as those are not sexy. People wanted change in the face of years of austerity. They voted leave, with the hope of a better future. Unfortunately it is U.K. Gvt. who implemented austerity, not the EU. I refer to my original post, they have been subtly scapegoated, which is why I believe leave won. Edited to add, isn’t the EU ultimately responsible for the current austerity measures in Greece for example? They have form, even if they try and cover their tracks and by this I mean an ECB politically controlled by the EU. |
Originally Posted by jindabyne
(Post 10445438)
Noel and Others
LEAVE - NOW. NO DEAL. Get on with it. But, oh, sorry, she scuppered that. Time for Boris. " JIT through a hard border would undoubtedly be longer " Love it !........ another in the infinite series of being clueless as to how the real world works. The principle of JIT is to reduce stockholdings and maximise production as a result....so once delays start to be incurred , you may be astounded to learn these have an impact on suppliers, distributors, retailers, consumers, repairs to name but a few.... |
As I found out yesterday, the plastic bag charge was not a Government 'good idea' but a measure to comply with an EU directive.
It is true that when Out we will be free to make our own rules but do you think for one moment that will be the end of 'good ideas'? We will be able to pick and chose, or decide our own rules, but penny to a Euro, I bet we follow the EU. We certainly won't abandon metric measures. We will consider miles per gallon but that is no different from the French quoting prices in Francs. The Government has already promised farmers to maintain subsidies. Paradoxically that is a 'bribe to sustain' a leave vote. |
Originally Posted by pug
(Post 10445453)
To use an analogy, if I were to walk into a bank asking for a mortgage, the bank would means test me. They would want some certainty that I would be able to make my payments. They most certainly not lend me the money if I were to tell them I was leaving my job but may be able to get a better job in future. This is why business wants certainty, and why there are great strives to take no deal off the table. |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 10445740)
As
We certainly won't abandon metric measures. We will consider miles per gallon but that is no different from the French quoting prices in Francs. The Government has already promised farmers to maintain subsidies. Paradoxically that is a 'bribe to sustain' a leave vote. Give the "promises " were made by Gove then it's inevitable they will be reneged on ....as soon as it's convenient to do so. |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 10445740)
As I found out yesterday, the plastic bag charge was not a Government 'good idea' but a measure to comply with an EU directive.
. In my industry sector, the professional institutions also ask their members for opinions on proposed directives. I am not aware of anything in my industry sector ever having been imposed on us without prior consultation. |
Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator
(Post 10445740)
As I found out yesterday, the plastic bag charge was not a Government 'good idea' but a measure to comply with an EU directive.
Strictly speaking, the plastic bag charge was, however, a government idea. Because Directive 2015/720 only requires member states to reduce single-use plastic bag use by 50% by 2017 and 80% by 2019. It does not say anything about how it has to be done or stipulates a plastic bag charge. |
Originally Posted by Grayfly
(Post 10445800)
The UK is consulted on issues like this before it becomes a directive. In order for it to become a directive, the UK must also have thought it was a good idea.
In my industry sector, the professional institutions also ask their members for opinions on proposed directives. I am not aware of anything in my industry sector ever having been imposed on us without prior consultation. In or out our Government is still going to adopt 'good ideas'. |
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