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Capt Kremmen 20th May 2020 17:27


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10788003)
The genocide tag was not my interpretation but one I recall from a learned discussion on genocide. I expect the source can be found on the Web if you would care to look.

As for failing, the context was a possible application to rejoin in 2024. By then it will be possible for all to see whether the UK or its remnants is succeeding or failing, after we have lost the free trade deal with those 27 neighbours.
​​​​​​

You've just had an accurate history lesson courtesy of Barkdale Boy. Be grateful.

ORAC 20th May 2020 17:33

On the other hand, there haven’t been many Phoenicians around since 146 BC......

Sallyann1234 20th May 2020 18:19


Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen (Post 10788060)
You've just had an accurate history lesson courtesy of Barkdale Boy. Be grateful.

Here we go, for you and for Barkdale Boy.

The First Recorded Genocide

ORAC 20th May 2020 18:28

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genoci...nt_gendercides

Capt Kremmen 20th May 2020 18:58


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10788095)
Here we go, for you and for Barkdale Boy.

The First Recorded Genocide

Genocide ? It is a matter of numbers. Related to a people with a shared heritage. Our own English genocide is known as the 'harrying of the north' and was perpetrated by William the Usurper in and around 1070. One way and another it is estimated that about 70,000 English died as a consequence of the Usurper's murderous activities. It is remembered still.

Capt Kremmen 20th May 2020 19:08


Originally Posted by Torquetalk (Post 10787604)
The UK doesn’t say it wants to have things its own way, it says it wants a “bespoke deal”. The problem for the Uk is that it imagines itself to be in a position of far greater leverage than it is. It has been making this mistake since Suez and still has an outdated understanding of its political and economic might. The US can tear up the rule book and Mexico and Canada have to compromise. The UK just isn’t the US and is ballroom dancing at a night club.

"of far greater leverage than it is ". For a country that has next to no 'leverage' if you are to be believed, the EU are sure pulling out all the stops to make it as impossible as they can to prevent us leaving their loving embrace !

If their behaviour exemplifies what they do to their supposed friends and allies what are they likely to do to their enemies?

Torquetalk 20th May 2020 19:59


Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen (Post 10788138)
"of far greater leverage than it is ". For a country that has next to no 'leverage' if you are to be believed, the EU are sure pulling out all the stops to make it as impossible as they can to prevent us leaving their loving embrace !

If their behaviour exemplifies what they do to their supposed friends and allies what are they likely to do to their enemies?

But I didn’t say the UK didn’t have any leverage, did I? That was what you decided to attribute to me.

Of course the UK has leverage. But less than it imagines.

My example of Suez probably doesn’t go far back far enough. Britain’s position as a major world power was already on the wain after WW1 and it struggles to have a modern sense of identity without old glory creeping in. Unfortunately this old glory can’t encompass the reality of the UK today. It isn’t believable. It doesn’t reflect the UK culturally or ethnically in 2020. It also ignores who actually owns what in the country. The citizens are not asset rich with savings in the bank. Wealth is not cascading down the generations.

UK political language is full of “world-leading” and “world-beating” terminology. The suggestion is that everyone is onboard UK PLC. Are they? Is it a nation of shared enterprise just waiting to throw off those European shackles and thrive? Had you had a good look around the country lately?

The UK is currently beating Europe in its Covid-19 death rates. The figures are comparable, but exceed the “less-developed” Southern Europe countries. They look dire compared to supposed peer Northern European countries. And yet there we have our key decision-makers talking it up saying what a great job they are doing. Chipper Blighty stoically coping in adversity. Except maybe we need never have the scale of deaths we have. Maybe there needs to be a bit more substance and quality and less hot air. Fervent Brexiteers like yourself strike me as part of a hot air brigade I am afraid. Brexit is not a harbinger of change, it is the golden gate to more of the same. A country stuck with a distorted self-image and unable to address long-standing problems of poverty, social division and creaking infrastructure.

ATNotts 20th May 2020 20:03


Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen (Post 10788055)
As I've commented - extravagant interpretation to an extreme. You're crystal ball gazing like a demented crystal ball gazer. It is obvious that your 'ardent leavers' are not my ardent leavers. We left the EU four years ago in every which way bar crossing the tees and dotting the eye's.

Wait a minute ! You could be right. I'm looking afresh at your perspective. Dole queues out of sight. Food banks open 24/7. The run on sterling making the Cresta seem a doddle. Govt. junk bonds that no one wants to buy. Public utility workers on endless protest marches making Jarrow look like a picnic. And to cap it all - damn and blast - an application by GB to join the Euro thus making good years of missed opportunity, swatted superciliously away by Monnet lookalike M. Barnier.

It could all have been so different had we listened to you and your squad of Remain addicts. Despite the nihilism displayed by those of your political persuasion, the success of GB despite every obstacle is a wonder to behold and is itself a measure of the capability of this great country.

Oh dear!! as I have said several times, we've left, there's no turning back, we're stuck with it. Don't like it, would prefer not to accept it, but likely be in my box before current generation now in their 20s and 30s manage to reverse things.

I hope for the Country's sake that you and your side are right, and I and my side wrong.

Gipsy Queen 20th May 2020 23:47


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10788064)
On the other hand, there haven’t been many Phoenicians around since 146 BC......

I believe there may be a few still surviving in the north of Ghawdex, Malta GC.

Gipsy Queen 21st May 2020 00:07


Originally Posted by ATNotts (Post 10788175)
Oh dear!! as I have said several times, we've left, there's no turning back, we're stuck with it. Don't like it, would prefer not to accept it, but likely be in my box before current generation now in their 20s and 30s manage to reverse things.

I suspect that you will be in your box much later than you anticipate. It is by no means certain that the Millennials would actively seek to make this reversal to once again become subject to the hegemony of the EU but in any event, the probability is that by then, the ghastly monolith will have self-destructed.

Mr Optimistic 21st May 2020 00:14

This thread still going? You have a lot of breath in your bodies.

LowNSlow 21st May 2020 08:23

Torquetalk, the UK's figures are undoubtedly bad but it's the number / million population that's more indicative of how the virus affected the country:

Belgium - 785.88
Spain - 594.12
Italy - 529.38
UK - 520.59
France - 429.30
Sweden - 370.62
USA - 277.70
Europe overall - 219.67
Switzerland - 185.10
Germany - 96.56
World - 41.44

Ultimately the numbers won't really be comparable until every country assess their "excess deaths" compared to a 5 or 10 year moving average.

Kev Agamemnon 21st May 2020 09:08


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10788526)
Torquetalk, the UK's figures are undoubtedly bad but it's the number / million population that's more indicative of how the virus affected the country:

Indeed. You've also got to consider the accuracy of the data and how it's compiled, because different countries have different approaches. Not everyone includes deaths in care homes for example.

Trying to make a direct comparison, country by country, of Covid-19 deaths in Europe is pointless. And using it to make a partisan political statement is tasteless...…..

Barksdale Boy 21st May 2020 10:35

Sallyann1234

Several points:

You mention "a learned discussion"; it looks more like a paper produced by a single author to me.

Professor Kiernan himself concedes that Rome was not "engaged in a war of racial extermination". Indeed, racial extermination, which is what I take genocide to mean, is difficult to achieve, albeit many have tried - attempted genocide more often fitted the bill in the ancient world. It seems a trifle unfair, therefore, to accuse Rome of something that did not have an internationally-agreed legal definition until 1948.

I grant that Kiernan is the Director of the Genocide Studies Program at Yale, but some of his work in this field, in particular with reference to Cambodia, has been far from universally acclaimed.

"The First Recorded Genocide"? I suspect that Thucydides might be a bit miffed at that.



Capt Kremmen 21st May 2020 10:49

I admit that my knowledge of semantics is scanty but, I do recognise such when it smites me between the eyes. You made a qualified statement on 'leverage', I replied in kind. At no point did I write or imply anything else.

You give a rather overwrought description of a country that I do not recognise altho', I agree, with your generality of 'creaking infrastructure'. There is no poverty. No one goes hungry. Should anyone fall outside the limits of State provision, there are numerous aid agencies ready willing and able to scoop up those affected. For a true illustration of real poverty you need some foreign travel under your belt. Try India for starters. Once you've sampled that you will have a better familiarity and will be able to make valid comparisons.

Social division? Utter psycho-babble. The only social division with which I'm in the least familiar is that associated with the 'creaming- off- the- top' carpetbaggers who now infest our Local Government town halls lining their wallets with significant amounts of cash from council taxpayers. The 'haves' and 'have nots' created by this wealth creation scheme can be likened to social division.

"citizens are not asset rich?" "Wealth is not cascading...?" The re- distribution of wealth is an ongoing process. The process began at the end of WW2 and continues. The people are incomparably better off. My life - as an example, is a vastly more comfortable and acceptable experience than that which was the lot of my parents and grandparents. So different as to be like the proverbial chalk and cheese. And the principal difference has been property ownership for the masses.


Torquetalk 21st May 2020 10:56


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10788526)
Torquetalk, the UK's figures are undoubtedly bad but it's the number / million population that's more indicative of how the virus affected the country:

Belgium - 785.88
Spain - 594.12
Italy - 529.38
UK - 520.59
France - 429.30
Sweden - 370.62
USA - 277.70
Europe overall - 219.67
Switzerland - 185.10
Germany - 96.56
World - 41.44

Ultimately the numbers won't really be comparable until every country assess their "excess deaths" compared to a 5 or 10 year moving average.


Low

The stats you have posted look like infection rates per million. Clearly very high infection rates indicate either a tardy or poor response to the Covid-19 threat and that is of interest in itself. I am sure your last point is right, but the comparison will suffer from methodological differences. You’ll have to look hard to have credible adjusted comparisons, not just the story a country or a political interest wants to tell. The R4 programme More or Less addressed this issue in part this week, comparing UK to Germany.

But setting aside the problem of methodological differences (most obviously where and how deaths are being Covid attributed and recorded between countries), the absolute numbers of deaths seems to be even more telling than infection. Why have so many people died in the UK? Why are the numbers akin to the countries we have historically regarded as “poorer” or “less developed” and in stark contrast to the ”advanced” European nations? Could it be be that the UK is doing badly on a whole series of indices such as poor health; poor hygiene; under-investment in the health system? Notwithstanding dismal political leadership which took Covid-19 about as seriously as Trump or Bolsonaro at the outset, I find it hard not to believe that there exists a lack of “system health” and the UK is in denial about this. I see a cultural tendency to get a bit jingoistic and avoid or dismiss uncomfortable realities rather than step back and ask wtf is wrong here? And of course, this attitude has direct parallels with the Brexit debate with respect to what (if anything) is wrong In the UK and where responsibility might lie.

As to evidence for the above, refer to CKs jingoistic reality-denying babble above...

Torquetalk 21st May 2020 11:15


Originally Posted by Capt Kremmen (Post 10788675)
I admit that my knowledge of semantics is scanty but, I do recognise such when it smites me between the eyes. You made a qualified statement on 'leverage', I replied in kind. At no point did I write or imply anything else.

But you wrote:

For a country that has next to no 'leverage' if you are to be believed,

Always found that when people refer to semantics the next thing that comes out of their mouth/keyboard will be complete rubbish.

Capt Kremmen 21st May 2020 11:55


Originally Posted by Torquetalk (Post 10788695)
Always found that when people refer to semantics the next thing that comes out of their mouth/keyboard will be complete rubbish.

I bow to your proclaimed expertise in 'complete rubbish'.

LowNSlow 21st May 2020 12:15

TT, they are "Total confirmed deaths per million population"

I think you can also add "p1ss poor management of the NHS and PHE" to the list of possible reasons why things have gone worse here than many other places.

Once the dust has settled it will be interesting to see where the source infections came from, eg airports, ships or trains. Given France has recognised that they potentially had C-19 in December maybe our transport links with France which deposit people into the UK in a crowded environment, eg airports, ports and train stations might explain why our death rates, and totals, are so similar compared to Germany for example where cross border communication is more diluted.

Torquetalk 21st May 2020 12:32


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10788739)
TT, they are "Total confirmed deaths per million population"

I think you can also add "p1ss poor management of the NHS and PHE to the list of possible reasons why things have gone worse here than many other places.

Once the dust has settled it will be interesting to see where the source infections came from, eg airports, ships or trains. Given France has recognised that they potentially had C-19 in December maybe our close physical links with France might explain why our death rates, and totals, are so similar compared to Germany for example.

Thanks for clarifying that Low. That depiction is really interesting.

Maybe that extra month is important, as the ski season gets going in January and this was the source of the spread for quite a few Northern European clusters. And despite proximity to Italy and France, most Germans tend to stay in the North of the Alps, even though Italy is only a couple of hours further.


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