PPRuNe Forums

PPRuNe Forums (https://www.pprune.org/)
-   Jet Blast (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast-16/)
-   -   BREXIT (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/619673-brexit.html)

ATNotts 23rd Jan 2020 08:15


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10669233)
Oh dear, poor Boris.......prone, it seems, to premature ejaculation .....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51214761

This paragraph however, should be more than a cause for concern. Presumably this relates to the mantra "taking back control ".......and duly offers a prescient warning as to how this Gov't intends to impose as near to totalitarian a regime as it thinks it can get away with on the electorate.....

"MPs overwhelmingly rejected all the changes made to the bill in the House of Lords earlier this week - on citizens' rights, the power of UK courts to diverge from EU law, the independence of the judiciary after Brexit and the consent of the UK's devolved administrations"

I don't understand why anyone would have expected anything else when the UK upper chamber is unelected, and therefore by convention cannot force through any changes to legislation from the lower house. The lower house of course could have accepted the amendments handed down from The Lords, but given their current majority there is absolutely no reason why they should take any advice from them. It makes you wonder why we retain the House of lords at all. It is absolutely ripe for major (democratic) reform, but will it happen? Of course not.

Sallyann1234 23rd Jan 2020 08:30


Originally Posted by SARF (Post 10668886)
Put a label on it.. contains chlorinated chicken. Made in the USA. Let the public decide if they want to pay 6 quid for free range, 4 quid for UK factory or 2 quid for the American stuff..
if your skint it’s a no brainier .. if your loaded pay 15 pounds for and hand reared chicken that has been fed caviar

Except that much food is consumed without having been labelled.
Schools, hospitals, fast food outlets all buy the cheapest possible supplies. In the case of chicken this will be imports from the US, and the consumer will have no choice or knowledge of its origin.
These are major markets for UK farmers, who will either go out of business or will have to use the same processes to compete.
So much for your 'no brainer'.

Gargleblaster 23rd Jan 2020 14:08


Originally Posted by LowNSlow (Post 10668739)
Why do people bang on about differing standards between the UK, EU, USA etc as for the decades preceding the formation of the EU and subsequent to it the respective standards bodies, eg BSI, DIN, AFNOR, ANSI etc have agreed on which standards have equivalence within other countries and thus allowed imports of products which meet the internal standards required by the destination country.

Nothing to do with trade deals, purely establishing technical equivalence.

This is not about standards like DIN, etc, this is about national law.

If the UK has a trade deal with the EU and a truckload ... oops a lorry-load of chicken produced in the UK arrives at an EU border, customs will know that the law in the UK stipulates no-chlorine-in-chicken, and will let it through.

If there is no trade deal, and the shipment is only accompanied by a declaration from the producer that it is produced according to EU standards, customs may or may not believe it. They may seize the whole load and have it sent off for analysis. It may help if the producer employs a trusted 3rd party (in the EU) to certify their products day in and day out are produced according to standards, with regular checks. Costly.

A trade deal is about the parties promising to have certain requirements in their respective national laws, so everyone can trust that e.g. chicken produced in that country follows certain rules.

The UK is leaving the world's largest trade union where it could truck products completely without inspections or paperwork anywhere across Europe. As things are looking now, this is going to come to an end in 11 months.

MFC_Fly 23rd Jan 2020 18:33


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10668631)
Negotiations are to take place in parallel with the EU and the US, who each insist on their own regulatory alignment.
No problem there then.

How on Earth do other countries that export worldwide (e.g. Japan, Malaysia, etc) manage to survive? Or, closer to your comment, how do the EU export to the US or the US to the EU, without a deal, when each has their own regulations?

Oh, I know, they make things for their markets that comply with the regulations of that market. It's been going on for decades.

ThorMos 23rd Jan 2020 19:08


Originally Posted by MFC_Fly (Post 10669699)
How on Earth do other countries that export worldwide (e.g. Japan, Malaysia, etc) manage to survive? Or, closer to your comment, how do the EU export to the US or the US to the EU, without a deal, when each has their own regulations?

Oh, I know, they make things for their markets that comply with the regulations of that market. It's been going on for decades.

And producing for a market with differing rules and regulations is more expensive. My god, is that so difficult to understand?
There's none so blind...

Sallyann1234 23rd Jan 2020 21:42


Originally Posted by ThorMos (Post 10669713)
And producing for a market with differing rules and regulations is more expensive. My god, is that so difficult to understand?
There's none so blind...

The EU with its huge home market, has to meet export rules and versions for the US.

The US with its huge home market, has to meet export rules and versions for the EU.

The UK with its relatively small home market will have to meet two different sets of rules and regulations to trade with both the EU and the US. That's why industry has issued so many warnings.

Exrigger 23rd Jan 2020 22:36

Lets see if I understand this correctly, businesses currently meet both EU and USA standards on all we export to them, which is quite a lot, post Brexit those businesses are apparently going to have to change those standards and have two sets, one for the EU and one for the USA that are different from those we currently have, WHY?

back to Boeing 23rd Jan 2020 22:49


Originally Posted by Exrigger (Post 10669867)
Lets see if I understand this correctly, businesses currently meet both EU and USA standards on all we export to them, which is quite a lot, post Brexit those businesses are apparently going to have to change those standards and have two sets, one for the EU and one for the USA that are different from those we currently have, WHY?

No. they’re going to have to prove that they still conform to the EU rules (a European does love his paperwork) and the US are going to demand access for their products which are of a differing standard (usually cheaper) and the U.K. manufacturers are going to have to compete.

ThorMos 24th Jan 2020 06:29


Originally Posted by Exrigger (Post 10669867)
Lets see if I understand this correctly, businesses currently meet both EU and USA standards on all we export to them, which is quite a lot, post Brexit those businesses are apparently going to have to change those standards and have two sets, one for the EU and one for the USA that are different from those we currently have, WHY?

simple example:
There are rules and regulations regarding wiring. The Us and the Eu wires are different, i cannot use one in the other appliance. Therefore i have to have two sets of wires on the shelves in my warehouse. The ordered quantities from my suppliers is only half of each, which makes them more expensive. I have more money lying around in my warehouse and i need more storage space. i have two sets of componenbts in my computer, and don't think that this is just storage space on a harddisk, the data has to be kept up to date and maintained. my production line has to be able to produce two sets of appliances.
Sometimes you need different tools for the different markets. The stupid wire example shows this: american insulation on wires is a lot harder that the european insulation. We found it easier to get pliers and cutters from the states than destroy our european tools.
And now you want to incorporate a third set of regulations?

please excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes, this was written in a rush...

Exrigger 24th Jan 2020 07:03


Originally Posted by ThorMos (Post 10670049)
simple example:
There are rules and regulations regarding wiring. The Us and the Eu wires are different, i cannot use one in the other appliance. Therefore i have to have two sets of wires on the shelves in my warehouse. The ordered quantities from my suppliers is only half of each, which makes them more expensive. I have more money lying around in my warehouse and i need more storage space. i have two sets of componenbts in my computer, and don't think that this is just storage space on a harddisk, the data has to be kept up to date and maintained. my production line has to be able to produce two sets of appliances.
Sometimes you need different tools for the different markets. The stupid wire example shows this: american insulation on wires is a lot harder that the european insulation. We found it easier to get pliers and cutters from the states than destroy our european tools.
And now you want to incorporate a third set of regulations?

please excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes, this was written in a rush...

So you have that now, why will Brexit make that any different with continuing that same trade, people really do seem to be making up problems as they go along.

I take it that currently no-one has to produce paperwork to confirm they are complying with current regulations and if the product is using the existing production materials and machines it will remain at the current acceptable standard, unless people are saying that businesses are going to change production runs on purpose to lower standards from what they have been compliant with for years, just because of Brexit, and don't care about loss of existing trade, real clever business model that one is, at least they have a ready made excuse for failure called Brexit.

Gargleblaster 24th Jan 2020 07:14

What's being discussed here is basically the idea behind the EU. Promote trade (=jobs) by making it dead easy.

Anyone in any country can produce goods and export them to another country. The goods only need to comply with that country's laws and regulations. However tariffs, delays, paperwork and other inconveniences are to be expected. It appears to me that a lot of people don't have any understanding of how companies make a living or how the commercial world works. BTW, should there not be any proper trade agreements made between UK and the EU, Northern Ireland will have to process imported goods from the UK just like Chinese ones.

Yes, the UK economy is 80% services and only 20% manufacturing. But the UK government seems specifically not to want to make any agreements with the EU on the service sector. Well, Russian and Middle East bank clients couldn't care less.

Perhaps the UK will succeed in morphing itself into a Singapore-like economy, but I wonder how long that is going to take.

Krystal n chips 24th Jan 2020 07:30

There should be no further concerns about the UK leaving the EU, because......salvation is at hand !.......according to the Excess that is. All signed by the end of the year in fact, so only a mere 11 months to endure any short term adverse effects .....plucky Britain will merely weather this inconvenience of course. This assumes the population has not been decimated as helpfully headlined by the apocalyptic headlines from other rags.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-51230904

ORAC 24th Jan 2020 07:45

European Commission, Council presidents sign Brexit deal

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen and European Council President Charles Michel this morning signed the agreement on the withdrawal of the U.K. from the EU.

In a tweet announcing the move, Michel said: "Things will inevitably change but our friendship will remain. We start a new chapter as partners and allies." He added, in French, that he looked "forward to writing this new page together."

The European Parliament’s Constitutional Affairs Committee gave its consent to the withdrawal deal Thursday, with all MEPs in the European Parliament set to approve the agreement next week......

Gargleblaster 24th Jan 2020 07:58


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10670097)
There should be no further concerns about the UK leaving the EU, because......salvation is at hand !.......according to the Excess that is. All signed by the end of the year in fact, so only a mere 11 months to endure any short term adverse effects .....plucky Britain will merely weather this inconvenience of course. This assumes the population has not been decimated as helpfully headlined by the apocalyptic headlines from other rags.....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-51230904

Should be fine then ! The UK will naturally swiftly adjust its stance on a number of matters like Huawei and Iran's nuclear efforts, as requested.

Pontius Navigator 24th Jan 2020 08:27

To take the wiring question further. Thanks to Edward Leigh we have moulded 13 amp plugs. They can be used in only one orientation. The EU have flat two-pin or two-pin and two earth with two orientation possible. Internally the EU switch breaks both live and neutral. US plugs are also moulded two blade and work on a different voltage too.

Manufacturers seem to be able to cope.


SWBKCB 24th Jan 2020 08:30


I take it that currently no-one has to produce paperwork to confirm they are complying with current regulations and if the product is using the existing production materials and machines it will remain at the current acceptable standard, unless people are saying that businesses are going to change production runs on purpose to lower standards from what they have been compliant with for years, just because of Brexit, and don't care about loss of existing trade, real clever business model that one is, at least they have a ready made excuse for failure called Brexit.
You might physically be doing exactly the same thing, but your are now doing it under a different regulatory regime. So now you will need to prove that you meet EU requirements when you import - extra complexity, extra cost.


Anyone in any country can produce goods and export them to another country. The goods only need to comply with that country's laws and regulations. However tariffs, delays, paperwork and other inconveniences are to be expected. It appears to me that a lot of people don't have any understanding of how companies make a living or how the commercial world works. BTW, should there not be any proper trade agreements made between UK and the EU, Northern Ireland will have to process imported goods from the UK just like Chinese ones.
Yes - spot on.

Exrigger 24th Jan 2020 09:10


You might physically be doing exactly the same thing, but you are now doing it under a different regulatory regime. So now you will need to prove that you meet EU requirements when you import - extra complexity, extra cost.
I take it that businesses over the last god knows how many years have never had to prove they meet EU standards before, if they have had to before Brexit, which I am sure they have had to, then why would continuing to prove that they still meet the required standards mean more complexity and extra cost.

Grayfly 24th Jan 2020 09:25


Originally Posted by Exrigger (Post 10670189)
I take it that businesses over the last god knows how many years have never had to prove they meet EU standards before.

In the sector I worked in,(built environment and construction), no, but can't speak for others. If we were using something built outside the EU we needed to carry out checks and due diligence that it did meet EU/UK standards. Time and cost impact.

Grayfly 24th Jan 2020 09:32

Just to add that my professional qualifications were accepted in EU counties but now it appears that after Brexit I will have to be re assessed which involves re validation. Again time and cost impact, no confirmation yet, but perhaps for each EU country.

ThorMos 24th Jan 2020 10:15


Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator (Post 10670150)
To take the wiring question further. Thanks to Edward Leigh we have moulded 13 amp plugs. They can be used in only one orientation. The EU have flat two-pin or two-pin and two earth with two orientation possible. Internally the EU switch breaks both live and neutral. US plugs are also moulded two blade and work on a different voltage too.

Manufacturers seem to be able to cope.

of course they are able to cope, they have to if they want to sell in another country. But, does that make the products cheaper or more expensive? Does a third set of rules for something like 60+ million people make things more complicated? And, maybe you didn't know this… Brazil is changing its rules and regulations to come in line with european standards...


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:56.


Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.