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NutLoose 20th Oct 2019 21:09

And Scotland have said they want to leave, but if they don't like it. they will vote to rejoin, that on its own would have the EU rejecting them. I will say it again it WAS NOT a country vote. As for a 2nd referendum, call an election, that will tell you.

I see Yellow Hammer has been triggered today.


Therefore move it up to say 60%, for or against, which would seem a more representative margin, and this would remove any calls for another referendum, as the margin would be seen to be a clear majority, be that for against. In short put up, or shut up, for either party, and put an end to it, or until the country decides differently through GE in future years.
Are you aware how many winning General Elections have ever come close to that figure and how would you do it? on total votes cast?

https://researchbriefings.files.parl...f96886d09b.png

wiggy 21st Oct 2019 05:19


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 10599395)
Are you aware how many winning General Elections have ever come close to that figure

Which of course highlights the problem with the FPTP system rather than the problem with a referendum.

Krystal n chips 21st Oct 2019 05:34

Tsk ! Dear Boris...first it was your promise about lying under, or in front of, a bulldozer. Alas, said bulldozer is still " all revved up with no place to go " ( apologies to Meatloaf here ) and then came mention of taking up residence in a ditch, when you hijacked a certain Constabulary's event you might recall .....again, sadly, this promise has not been kept with the recent letter to the EU in mind. No matter, there is still time to makes amends and fulfil either in order that you can be commemorated accordingly.....

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...pledge-cartoon

Meanwhile, HR Depts will be overcome with the deluge of sick notes when the readership of the Mail, and even more so the Excess, absorb the rage on the front pages of both rags......Labour have often, quite rightly at times, been accused of not acting like an Opposition party...but now they have.....hence there's no validity to the accusation any more.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-50119439

ORAC 21st Oct 2019 06:18

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....965c8bce6.jpeg

Mr Mac 21st Oct 2019 07:41

Nutlose
It would be a referendum, therefore your data on GE is perhaps not accurate. You keep claiming the first referendum was the largest democratic vote in the UK. Now that everybody is aware of what they are voting for, and possible consequences that turn out would probably increase. Either way you get a decision, which you living in the UK will then have to live with. Also lets be honest, this whole thing was put up by Dave C to try and patch up the Tory party splits, as there did not seem to be a massive section of the UK wanting a referendum, as we were all trying to dig ourselves out of the 2008 crash, and the last thing the UK needed was more uncertainty.

Cheers
Mr Mac

jolihokistix 21st Oct 2019 08:14

So we might not be accepting EU’s packed lunch on our picnic?


NutLoose 21st Oct 2019 09:19


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 10599630)
Nutlose
It would be a referendum, therefore your data on GE is perhaps not accurate. You keep claiming the first referendum was the largest democratic vote in the UK. Now that everybody is aware of what they are voting for, and possible consequences that turn out would probably increase. Either way you get a decision, which you living in the UK will then have to live with. Also lets be honest, this whole thing was put up by Dave C to try and patch up the Tory party splits, as there did not seem to be a massive section of the UK wanting a referendum, as we were all trying to dig ourselves out of the 2008 crash, and the last thing the UK needed was more uncertainty.

Cheers
Mr Mac


But you need to honour the first one first. You vote parties into power without knowing the possible consequences, it's life, I wish manifestos would be written into law and have to be adhered to, but they often are not. I was well aware when I voted to leave that it may be a clean break or a softer break, but I was aware, as for the amount of remainers wishing a vote, that often is down to a hundred odd thousand, marching, the press and who can shout loudest. A Election prior to departure would have told them the mood of the country, a referendum was not and is not needed. Just has some Labour pre electioneering garbage in the mail this morning, item 6 says and I quote


A public vote on any Brexit deal.
Labour will campaign to remain against no deal or a bad deal.
But they were on TV saying they would agree to the latest Johnson deal if there was a referendum, so in effect they are saying it is a good deal because if it wasn't they would campaign against it.. therefore what is the problem?

we have had a decision remember...perhaps the referendum you should have is to ask, should we hold another referendum, then you will know if it is a valid choice, I also do not like the question that Labour was suggesting, Leave with the deal or remain, it should surely also include the leave with no deal option.


felixflyer 21st Oct 2019 09:50


You vote parties into power without knowing the possible consequences, it's life, I wish manifestos would be written into law and have to be adhered to, but they often are not.
Such as those MP's voted in on 'leave means leave' manifesto's who have tried to do anything but leave since the day they were elected.


Now that everybody is aware of what they are voting for, and possible consequences that turn out would probably increase.
If another ref comes back as remain then every day, week, month, year we will know more and more about what remaining looks like. How often will we get another referendum to leave?

Groundbased 21st Oct 2019 09:51


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 10599679)
I also do not like the question that Labour was suggesting, Leave with the deal or remain, it should surely also include the leave with no deal option.

I'd disagree with that because it would split the leave vote. It would not be fair to have one remain question and two leave ones.

Parliament is re-aligning itself along this deal or no Brexit lines as far as I can see. With the current remain majority I see no way the deal will get through un-amended. On this basis it seems to me that a general election is the best option with the Conservatives campaigning to implement the current deal as agreed and the Labour/Lib Dems campaigning to remain. Difficult enough to achieve with the current arithmetic as is, but I'm not sure there is a majority for ref 2.

In my view this is better than a second referendum, which would be massively divisive and solve nothing.

Mr Mac 21st Oct 2019 11:10

Groundbased
I would say the angst which has been delivered up within the UK by the referendum, will ensure that the divisive feel which appears to be building up in the UK will remain for an awfully longtime. I have said it before on here, but even leaving apart the Brexit issue, there does seem to be some underlying issues and feelings within British society which this has brought to the fore, and I can not say they appear to be very helpful or good for the country.

Nutlose
You will probably get your election at some stage, and you may well be right in that Boris may win, as to frank the labour opposition is very poor and there by flatters the current Tory party in comparison. However the rise of the Liberal party may well curtail Boris and the new Conservative party's antics.

Kind regards
Mr Mac

Sallyann1234 21st Oct 2019 12:07


Originally Posted by Mr Mac (Post 10599741)
Groundbased
I would say the angst which has been delivered up within the UK by the referendum, will ensure that the divisive feel which appears to be building up in the UK will remain for an awfully longtime. I have said it before on here, but even leaving apart the Brexit issue, there does seem to be some underlying issues and feelings within British society which this has brought to the fore, and I can not say they appear to be very helpful or good for the country.

You're right of course. There is a more general issue than Brexit.
And not to confuse cause and effect, I am of the firm opinion that the referendum result was due to two separate groups of voters.
Some voted because they wanted to leave the EU. Others were sick of the general malaise in the country and Brexit was the only available way of giving things an almighty shake.

NutLoose 21st Oct 2019 12:21


Nutlose
You will probably get your election at some stage, and you may well be right in that Boris may win, as to frank the labour opposition is very poor and there by flatters the current Tory party in comparison. However the rise of the Liberal party may well curtail Boris and the new Conservative party's antics.

Kind regards
Mr Mac
I in a strange way do not care who wins, though Corbyn isn't on the top of..or indeed my list at all, they would do better without him, but I just want a party to win who has a majority, can get the Country out of the haitus it is presently in so they can get Brexit done and dusted and the Country can move on to more serious things and start to rebuild the Country to what I believe it can truly be, and for them to end all this petty mindless squabbling and self interest and work for the Country for a change.

jolihokistix 21st Oct 2019 12:34

First let me be clear. I was abroad and did not vote in the original referendum. I saw how long and hard people had thought and struggled with which way to vote.
My daughter marched in London on Saturday. Why? I do not know.
She and her sister cried when the results of David Cameron's original referendum were announced.
She probably still feels strongly that by leaving we are cutting off an ability to travel freely, a lifeline, and a friendship with all her European friends whose presence is like the air we breathe. She senses a coldness ahead that must to her and to her closest circle be avoided at all cost.
Like Mrs Coulter and her subtle knife in Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy, is the government cutting children from their daemon animal nature by the power and authority of the Magisterium? Or at least does she perceive it that way?
Well, that is my reading of her inner heart. We have not discussed it. The literary allusion is mine.
And, if we had a general election I sense that all such people will vote Liberal.

ATNotts 21st Oct 2019 12:42


Originally Posted by NutLoose (Post 10599789)
I in a strange way do not care who wins, though Corbyn isn't on the top of..or indeed my list at all, they would do better without him, but I just want a party to win who has a majority, can get the Country out of the haitus it is presently in so they can get Brexit done and dusted and the Country can move on to more serious things and start to rebuild the Country to what I believe it can truly be, and for them to end all this petty mindless squabbling and self interest and work for the Country for a change.

An overall majority isn't necessary, what is required is a spirit of consensus and compromise among our political parties and politicians. I really don't see how we're going to get there though, unless we take on board a new electoral system that makes coalition the norm, rather than the exception which will force parties to compromise.

The situation we have now, where Labour opposing any deal, not because it's bad, but because it wasn't negotiated by them is unhelpful, frankly childish and the failure of cross party talks at the end of May's regime just underlines just how little parties are prepared to work with eachother, something that at this time is essential.

yellowtriumph 21st Oct 2019 14:41

Bercow not allowing a vote today.

jindabyne 21st Oct 2019 14:51

Stick him in the Tower.

yellowtriumph 21st Oct 2019 15:02

I'm probably using the wrong terminology here so forgive me, what would happen if the Government simply didn't put the deal agreed with the EU last week forward for any vote of any kind? Are they obliged to?

LowNSlow 21st Oct 2019 15:06

and, hypocritically, saying he is upholding a law from 1604. No mention of the times he's been a lot more flexible with the rules as pointed out to him in the House today by Sir Bernard Jenkin. Bercow's face was beetroot as he replied, very politely of course.

jolihokistix 21st Oct 2019 15:31

We need a neutral speaker for the House of Commons.

Aihkio 21st Oct 2019 15:39

A lot of indians, too many chiefs and not a single kuli. 😎


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