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Steepclimb 17th Oct 2019 10:28


Originally Posted by VP959 (Post 10596485)
I thought the majority in Wales also voted to leave the EU, didn't they?

People all over the UK and NI voted in the referendum, so it's a bit misleading to assume that the outcome is somehow only the result of those votes cast within England. Even 44.2% of those in Northern Ireland voted to leave, so it was far from being the whole of NI that wanted to remain. The two regions that dominated the remain vote were Scotland and London (38% leave and 40.1% leave respectively), with every other region in England and Wales voting to leave.

The outcome may well have been different had all those living within the other countries that make up the UK, apart from England, had voted to remain, but as they didn't, then the outcome has to be considered a decision reached by the whole of the UK.

It is an English thing. It's always been an English thing. How often have we seen complaints of the loss of Englishness. The dilution of what it is to be English.' All those foreigners', which was a big issue in the referendum. English nationalism is all part of it.
​​​​​​The fact is that England is the dominant country in the UK. Let's not pretend otherwise.

​​​​​​

Effluent Man 17th Oct 2019 10:35

My guess is that the DUP won't have a price on this. It's more important than money because this agreement would allow Sinn Fein with the help of smaller parties to outvote them in Stormont. Once they lose a majority there the whole shebang goes South - if you get my meaning.

pax britanica 17th Oct 2019 10:40

Its not so much a question of what we sell to or buy from India but the balance between the two and that will be something that makes our current account balance worse.

There is no way we will get a better deal with these countries a better deal than they have with the EU -which is just common sense we are a tiny little country and the Eu if it was to be treated as a country-which for trade purposes it is is the biggest in the world. A recent Evening Standard article-written by a Tory MP estimated that for every pound we gain from our so called global Britain trade we lose 30 pounds that we would have go from the Eu, which is probably an exaggeration but not by that much.

And today it seems we have a deal which is worse than the one Theresa May had which was underminded by these vile people in the ERG who are interested in nothing but personal gain.


Sallyann1234 17th Oct 2019 10:43


Originally Posted by Effluent Man (Post 10596560)
My guess is that the DUP won't have a price on this. It's more important than money because this agreement would allow Sinn Fein with the help of smaller parties to outvote them in Stormont. Once they lose a majority there the whole shebang goes South - if you get my meaning.


It's always been the case that SF will eventually out-vote the DUP because they are out-breeding them. But if DUP can attract even more subsidy from London they can hold off for a while. Dublin can't match that sort of investment in addition to the cash that the North already gets every year from English taxpayers.

NutLoose 17th Oct 2019 10:50

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....e4450b8553.jpg

pax britanica 17th Oct 2019 10:57

Great cartoon but for to things leave the Eu flag off the sign and put Johnson instead of Corbyn

The view from the FT is as follows and translates into -we have a worse deal than under Theresa May, so yet again Boris makes a bad situation worse
'Mr Johnson has been forced to make major concessions to the EU in recent days as he seeks to unlock an agreement that can win the support of the 27 other member states.'
So still time for Scottish independence , and ref 2

Of course Boris claims its now time to fight crime and improve the NHS despite being member of the Government and party who wrecked the police and NHS to begin with.

Steepclimb 17th Oct 2019 11:04

Well to be fair he did try to get a deal and the EU did their best but it's groundhog day. It'll be rejected by Parliament.

The merry go round goes on.

charliegolf 17th Oct 2019 11:08


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 10596366)

Mmm. Not buying that. Not many English 'incomers' into Blaenau Gwent, Port Talbot, Torfaen, Rhondda Cynon Taff etc. The leave voters were very much pension age, unemployed and young unemployed in those areas. These areas are among the best beneficiaries of EU dosh in the UK. Only my opinion of course.

CG

Just a spotter 17th Oct 2019 11:21


Originally Posted by Effluent Man (Post 10596560)
My guess is that the DUP won't have a price on this. It's more important than money because this agreement would allow Sinn Fein with the help of smaller parties to outvote them in Stormont. Once they lose a majority there the whole shebang goes South - if you get my meaning.

I think anyone familiar with the history of the last 100 or so years in either UK politics or the relationship between the two islands of Ireland and Britain won’t be surprised that a unionist party is holding London to ransom.

Whether it’s been the Ulster Unionists Party (UUP) or latterly their more hard line competitor the DUP, going back to the early 1900’s, threats have been issued to governments of all hue in London, and rabble rousing unionist leaders have gone as far as to stand in front of both openly and covertly armed militia to exert pressure on SW1 (sometimes with high profile Tory denizens of that post code in close proximity). With the notable exception of Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985 where a tory leader faced down the unionists, the history since the early 1900’s has been of HMGov’s capitulation and cosying up.

No wonder then, that the current leaders of the DUP, a party with circa 1,000 members feel they can name their price, even when the risks to their constituents of a deal not being done are extremely severe.

JAS

Steepclimb 17th Oct 2019 11:25


Originally Posted by Sallyann1234 (Post 10596569)
It's always been the case that SF will eventually out-vote the DUP because they are out-breeding them. But if DUP can attract even more subsidy from London they can hold off for a while. Dublin can't match that sort of investment in addition to the cash that the North already gets every year from English taxpayers.

Wonder how long the English taxpayers will put with that state of affairs. It'll get worse with Brexit because EU funding will be gone.

However if and it's a big if, there was a move towards a united Ireland it wouldn't be an overnight affair, a hard Norexit, a clean break as it were. It would be a transition and no doubt EU money would flow in to gradually replace the British taxpayer.

Also instead of being an outlier region in country that cares little for it. It would become a significant part of a country that it's attached to and attractive to the multi national investors which helped underscore Ireland's success in recent years. Northern Ireland has been neglected by Westminster for many years, much like the North of England.

That's not likely to change after Brexit.


Sallyann1234 17th Oct 2019 11:41

The EU has already promised financial support to the Republic after Brexit and they would certainly extend that if the North joins them.
The significant point about this Brexit deal, if it goes through, is that it establishes the principle of an EU/UK boundary without a hard border. If that can be done in Ireland it can be done also for Scotland. The SNP will be greatly encouraged by this, as London will have lost a significant argument against Scottish independence.

jolihokistix 17th Oct 2019 11:50

Will parliament simply be bloody-minded and shoot down the latest deal too, despite there now being no palatable alternative? Britain will be even more of a laughing stock to the world.

Groundbased 17th Oct 2019 11:57


Originally Posted by pax britanica (Post 10596583)
Great cartoon but for to things leave the Eu flag off the sign and put Johnson instead of Corbyn

The view from the FT is as follows and translates into -we have a worse deal than under Theresa May, so yet again Boris makes a bad situation worse
'Mr Johnson has been forced to make major concessions to the EU in recent days as he seeks to unlock an agreement that can win the support of the 27 other member states.'
So still time for Scottish independence , and ref 2

Of course Boris claims its now time to fight crime and improve the NHS despite being member of the Government and party who wrecked the police and NHS to begin with.

Or just a different deal. The FT's factual basis for this "concessions" story is what? Only a very few people have seen the actual deal, and they don't appear to be leaking.

bnt 17th Oct 2019 12:15

Does anyone know whether MPs will be permitted a free vote on the Brexit deal, or will they be subject to the party whip? I'm particularly interested in seeing how SNP MPs vote, since this deal could advance the cause of Scottish independence by triggering another referendum. I ask this as someone who just sent his UK passport off to Belfast for renewal, but who is wondering whether I'll have to apply for a Scottish passport in a few years' time..!

Krystal n chips 17th Oct 2019 12:35

You have to admire Boris's simplistic stance, well not really, concerning his view that, once signed, said deal ends all the Brexit farrago once and for all....which as we know is far from the case. If anything, it's only the start of even more protracted issues and the public schoolboys "yah boo sucks, we're not in the EU anymore, so there ! " stance won't be well received in the UK and elsewhere in the world. Of course, no victory speech ( triumphal arch pending...awaiting planning permission ) would be complete without a mention of "taking back control "..even though, like sovereignty, the UK has never actually lost either.

But it was thoughtful of Boris to casually mention, in passing, specific issues which are part of the undeclared electioneering process and to be aware they exist......here's a clue Boris. There's a very long list and an awful lot of catching up to do......

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ut-dup-backing

DaveReidUK 17th Oct 2019 12:38


Originally Posted by Groundbased (Post 10596651)
Or just a different deal. The FT's factual basis for this "concessions" story is what? Only a very few people have seen the actual deal, and they don't appear to be leaking.

Most of the dailies are leading with the same story - that BJ has been forced to move a significant number of provisions from the (binding) Withdrawal Agreement to the (non-binding) Political Declaration as the price of getting EU agreement to the lastest deal.


wiggy 17th Oct 2019 12:56


Originally Posted by Groundbased (Post 10596651)
Or just a different deal. The FT's factual basis for this "concessions" story is what? Only a very few people have seen the actual deal, and they don't appear to be leaking.

I might be guilty of being confused (often am) about which "actual deal" you mean, but certainly the revised withdrawal agreement was published on the europa website within minutes of the announcements being made late AM.




charliegolf 17th Oct 2019 13:32


Originally Posted by Krystal n chips (Post 10596677)

The Guardian headline...

Boris Johnson and EU reach Brexit deal without DUP backing

the reality...

Or Labour, or the Lib Dems, or not many Tories to speak of. Not sure about the Krankies.

​​​​​​​CG


yellowtriumph 17th Oct 2019 13:34

Did I just read that right on the BBC news webpage - Juncker refuses Brexit extension? Pressure or what if true.

ORAC 17th Oct 2019 13:37

Looks like the pressure from the EU is starting. sky reporting Juncker’s as saying, when asked, there would be “no prolongation” past the 31st; and the Luxembourg PM as sYing he would not vote to allow any further extension.


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