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VP959 16th Sep 2019 10:50

FWIW, the idea of power limiting any resistance heating device, with the intention of reducing energy consumption, is not only bonkers, but it defies the laws of physics. It takes a fixed amount of energy to heat a given mass of something by a given temperature above its surroundings, and that same given mass of something will lose heat all the time it's warmer than it surroundings, in accordance with Newton's Law of Cooling. It therefore follows that, if the available power is reduced, the time taken to heat something to a given temperature will increase, and also the heat loss will increase, as the longer it takes to heat the greater the period of time that heat will be lost during the heating process.

A really efficient kettle, in terms of the amount of sensible heat input (energy) is the lowest for a given mass and temperature increase would have good insulation and a really powerful heating element, so that the heat lost during the heating phase was minimised.

The same goes for heating elements in washing machines, tumble driers, dishwashers, etc. If the maximum power of the heating element is reduced they will just take longer to heat up and more heat will be lost (as sensible heat loss is proportional to the temperature differential and time).

I frankly don't care who came up with the daft idea of mandating lower power levels for resistance heating devices, whoever it was need to go back and take a look at simple (about O level) physics. Not hard to grasp the principles of the specific heat of materials or Newton's Law of Cooling.

Had the regulations been framed to limit the volume of water heating devices, whilst specifying a minimum acceptable level of insulation, then they would indeed by more likely to achieve the goal of reducing energy consumption by a tiny amount. Worth noting that boiling water doesn't use a lot of energy in the overall scheme of things, anyway. I think the belief that it does comes from a bit of stubborn fake news, that electricity consumption increases during advert breaks, and at the end of, popular TV programmes. Electricity demand does indeed increase at these times, but most of that increase is due to the demand from big water and sewage pumps, from near-synchronised toilet use.

racedo 16th Sep 2019 11:02


Originally Posted by zoigberg (Post 10571062)
James Dyson appears to have thrived making vacuum cleaners despite the terrible restrictions you talk about.

I this James, I support Brexit but moving to Singapore guy.

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 11:04


Originally Posted by Grayfly (Post 10571147)
Some of our UK cabinet members, like Priti Patel, know the reason for low productivity. British workers the “worst idlers in the world”, adding: “We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.

No mention of EU kettles.

I would not consider things so dramatically, but fact is Britain's productivity is below average in the EU, and according with the numbers above, has decreased in recent years.

And yes, one wonders what those big watt kettles drawing no more current than low watt kettles have to do with the situation in Britain ;-)

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 11:08


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 10571202)
I this James, I support Brexit but moving to Singapore guy.

Yes but
" The Dyson chief executive, Jim Rowan, said the move from Wiltshire to Singapore had “nothing to do with Brexit” but was about “future-proofing” the business. The move of Dyson’s legal entity from the UK to Singapore “will happen over the coming months”, meaning it could take place before Brexit."

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...q-to-singapore


Grayfly 16th Sep 2019 11:21


Originally Posted by VP959 (Post 10571195)
Had the regulations been framed to limit the volume of water heating devices, whilst specifying a minimum acceptable level of insulation, then they would indeed by more likely to achieve the goal of reducing energy consumption by a tiny amount.

I refer to my previous posts. Not in some sort of manic defense of the EU, but there are no regulations to reduce power. The proposal all those years ago was intended to provide a framework for improving the design of domestic appliances to reduce energy consumption. Better insulation, better controls, alternative materials, less waste and any other innovations that manufacturers could dream up. Based on my previous experience on EU proposals, if that was successful, then a directive could be produced which could be interpreted in each member state accordingly.

I don't believe this one has progressed to that stage.

I'm sure Mark Francois will keep us up to speed.

VP959 16th Sep 2019 11:27


Originally Posted by Grayfly (Post 10571222)
I refer to my previous posts. Not in some sort of manic defense of the EU, but there are no regulations to reduce power. The proposal all those years ago was intended to provide a framework for improving the design of domestic appliances to reduce energy consumption. Better insulation, better controls, alternative materials, less waste and any other innovations that manufacturers could dream up. Based on my previous experience on EU proposals, if that was successful, then a directive could be produced which could be interpreted in each member state accordingly.

I don't believe this one has progressed to that stage.

I'm sure Mark Francois will keep us up to speed.

And I wrote:


I frankly don't care who came up with the daft idea of mandating lower power levels for resistance heating devices, whoever it was need to go back and take a look at simple (about O level) physics. Not hard to grasp the principles of the specific heat of materials or Newton's Law of Cooling.

zoigberg 16th Sep 2019 13:54

Back to the thread....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49709430
“U.K. offers no solution to replace backstop”

No surprise there. Or that the EU are not budging on the need for it. Out on the 31st Oct with the Government no doubt blaming intransigent Brussels politicians and technocrats?

esa-aardvark 16th Sep 2019 14:09

Is there really 'free' movement.
 
Recently drove (as a passenger) past the Spanish-French border at La Jonquera.
Had a chance to see the border arrangements. There is a slip road 'La Jonquera - Douana (customs) just before
the border. From the motorway one can see a thousand or so trucks parked at the customs sheds.
What can they be doing ? If this is correct for Spain/France, why not for NI/Republic ?
Answers on a backstop please.

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 14:19


Originally Posted by esa-aardvark (Post 10571329)
There is a slip road 'La Jonquera - Douana (customs) just before
the border. From the motorway one can see a thousand or so trucks parked at the customs sheds.
What can they be doing ? If this is correct for Spain/France, why not for NI/Republic ?
Answers on a backstop please.

What day of the week was it ?
In many countries in the EU, truck circulation is forbidden during weekends (with some exceptions).

As for NI, there are fears that any physical border between "both Irelands" might reignite the troubles of yesterday.

racedo 16th Sep 2019 14:33


Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt (Post 10571341)
What day of the week was it ?
In many countries in the EU, truck circulation is forbidden during weekends (with some exceptions).

As for NI, there are fears that any physical border between "both Irelands" might reignite the troubles of yesterday.

There are 210 crossing between UK / ROI, how many between France and Spain ?

wiggy 16th Sep 2019 14:33


Originally Posted by esa-aardvark (Post 10571329)
Recently drove (as a passenger) past the Spanish-French border at La Jonquera.
Had a chance to see the border arrangements. There is a slip road 'La Jonquera - Douana (customs) just before
the border. From the motorway one can see a thousand or so trucks parked at the customs sheds.
What can they be doing ? If this is correct for Spain/France, why not for NI/Republic ?
Answers on a backstop please.

FWIW La Jonquera is one of our local border crossings, the lorry parks are always crowded, regardless of the days of the week.

However if it was a weekend it will have been rammed... The French have very strict rules banning most HGV movements over a weekend and "bank holidays"( though there are certain) exceptions, not sure of the Spanish HGV rules. What I do know is if you cross the border at that spot at weekends and see hundreds of lorries parked up in the areas around the customs sheds (same for many other road entry points to France at a weekend). Weekdays in my experience it is normally "free flow" for all traffic through there, with the French Douane/Spanish customs only pulling in selected vehicles for checks...

Not sure of the relevance of La Jonquera to the backstop - the NI/ROI border is subject to a specific agreement (the GFA).

Pontius Navigator 16th Sep 2019 15:35


Originally Posted by zoigberg (Post 10571182)
Mr Dyson still manages to sell his vacuum cleaners all around the world.

Actually this is a reverse issue. To compete with Dyson's low energy efficiency EU (German) makers use what Dyson alleges is a false test regime as their EU mandated power consumption is not as efficient as Dyson's method.

I haven't looked at comparative power levels between battery and mains machines but in the scale of things the Dyson is much more efficient as it uses less plastic and lighter material.

Grayfly 16th Sep 2019 16:27

Just in case we drift into examining the whole range of ecodesign products from the EU, this page will help expose the madness and justify Brexit or support your view on remaining.

ORAC 16th Sep 2019 16:28


Actually this is a reverse issue. To compete with Dyson's low energy efficiency EU (German) makers use what Dyson alleges is a false test regime as their EU mandated power consumption is not as efficient as Dyson's method.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46135645

zoigberg 16th Sep 2019 17:02


Originally Posted by ORAC (Post 10571440)

ah yes an interesting saga.

Been Accounting 16th Sep 2019 17:45

What’s in a date?
 
Why is it that whenever the cut-off date of the 31st October is mentioned the year is forgotten...?

racedo 16th Sep 2019 18:42

Boris The Incredible Hulk runs away from a Press conference because seems some people were nasty to him.

No it is becoming Boris, The Incredible Sulk.

ThorMos 16th Sep 2019 18:47


Originally Posted by racedo (Post 10571511)
Boris The Incredible Hulk runs away from a Press conference because seems some people were nasty to him.

No it is becoming Boris, The Incredible Sulk.

Maybe, from now on, he‘ll only have press conferences in the garden, with the helicopter in the background... Like his orange mate.

Chopper-talk...

Fly Aiprt 16th Sep 2019 19:52


Originally Posted by Grayfly (Post 10571437)
Just in case we drift into examining the whole range of ecodesign products from the EU, this page will help expose the madness and justify Brexit or support your view on remaining.

Thank you for the link.
Always good to check the facts and get a more in-depth opinion.
We discover that the EU regulations are not immune of the influence of the industry, see the Energy Labelling Regulation,for instance :

The Energy Labelling Regulation was annulled by the General Court of the European Court of Justice in its entirety (Case T-544/13 RENV) on 8 November 2018
Then in the document I read that the proposed regulations require certain types of vacuum cleaners energy consumption to be less than 900 watts (~3.75A/240V rms).

B Fraser 16th Sep 2019 20:13

When it comes to bonkers legislation, I made a wonderful discovery. The rule on bent bananas is not a myth after all. The 2011 regulation 1333 (Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) No 1333/2011 of 19 December 2011 laying down marketing standards for bananas, rules on the verification of compliance with those marketing standards and requirements for notifications in the banana sector (codi) is worth a chuckle.

Annex 1 11.A states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature of the fingers". That statement infers that a normal maximum curvature must be specified somewhere otherwise how could any banana be abnormal. The madness continues in that in the same annex V.c, it states that (when positioning the fruit on a shelf for sale) only one cluster of three bananas may be present in a row. It would also appear that no pair of bananas joined at the stalk may be sold at all although it appears you are permitted to purchase two single bananas.

All is not lost, Annex III contains an application form where a trader may apply for permission to presumably sell more than one bunch of three bananas or perhaps if they are feeling rebellious, two bananas joined together. I wonder if "curly wurly banana week" would be allowed if it's a leap year ?


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