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-   -   A Sickness in US Society (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/566749-sickness-us-society.html)

419 29th Aug 2015 10:38

You might fit in Austin with this lame "sit down to pee" mindset, but nowhere else, so that I guess you are going to stay home and work off some steam posting about how others choose to live. Get a life!
Having an opinion about something that other people choose to do and having a life aren't mutually exclusive.
Have you never once voiced (or written) an opinion about something that either doesn't directly affect you or something of which you have had no direct involvement?

bcgallacher 29th Aug 2015 10:50

Chucks - you have a remarkably cavalier attitude to the unnecessary deaths of thousands of people in your country - many of them totally innocent,an average of 8 children a day shot dead, 145 taken to A&E with gunshot wounds,50 or so policemen shot dead. This in a country with the resources of the U.S. Is a disgrace. The rest of the developed world looks at this with total bemusement that you have got yourself into this position where killings are regarded as the norm with absolutely nothing being done to reduce the numbers

chuks 29th Aug 2015 11:47

I live in Germany, not the USA, but I recently spent most of three happy years in Vermont, a state that allows concealed carry. That did not trouble me at all. On the other hand, I did not bother to buy a gun since I did not feel the need for one while there.

Another thing you seem to overlook is that many of those who are shot each day probably need that, so that you could view this as a sort of cull of vermin if you like.

On the other hand, "50 or so policemen shot dead ... " per day?

Large stretches of the UK could profit from that, I think. Walking down Mile End road with your hoodie's hood up, eating those nasty, limp chips and then dropping the bag on the pavement ... Bang! Sorted! You could use those guys who shoot foxes for this, I think. Put a bounty on anyone dropping his chips bag and see if London doesn't look better immediately. Okay, maybe just kneecap anyone wearing a hoodie ... I wouldn't want to come across as too cavalier here.

Do try to think a bit beyond your own blinkered mindsets, you mindlessly anti-gun people!

Posting about wowsers ... they do affect my chosen way of life, my "cavalier attitude" and all, so there!

Hempy 29th Aug 2015 12:07

It all depends on the value you place on a human life I suppose. A television? A hoody? Fair enough, if thats how cheap you want to be.

onetrack 29th Aug 2015 12:13

Chuks, the problem for us who are not American, is the constant and unrelentless export of American culture to every far corner of this planet. It is a 24/7/365 assault upon us, from every angle.
While there are numerous good features of American culture, the firearm-worshipping culture of America is not a feature any of us who currently live in firearm-controlled countries desire to see exported to our countries.
We already have idiots in Australia who try to "claim the 5th Amendment" when they are picked up by the police for criminal activity - let alone the ones here who worship the NRA and think that organisation needs to be a large part of Australia. :suspect:

bcgallacher 29th Aug 2015 12:34

Chucks - as you well know it is 50 police shooting deaths per year - I note the latest one yesterday at a gas station. You now suggest we should execute people who drop litter and wear hoodies - it is certainly a blessing that you did not own a gun in the USA. I hope that you are posting from some sort of secure accommodation as I would not like to think that someone with your views is running around loose.

Stanwell 29th Aug 2015 12:51

Very good post, onetrack.

As a gun-owner and active shooter, I must say that we don't need that aspect of 'American Culture' imported here, thank you.

Most of the shooting I do (both pistol and rifle competition) is on a range under controlled conditions.
Occasionally, a farmer or grazier will ask for help dealing with a population explosion or feral animal problem.
The problem is dealt with clinically, methodically and humanely.

Unfortunately, there's a certain ethnic minority here that think 'packing a piece' enhances their masculinity.
We then end up with a tit-for-tat where "I need one to protect myself and my family" is often heard - and so it goes on.
The Police are doing their best but...

I'll say it again, we don't need that crap here.

rh200 29th Aug 2015 13:03

As you should know, in OZ the laws have been in place for many years.
Suggest you brush up on them before you get yourself in trouble.
Not sure what laws your on about? last I heard you could still try and prevent a crime happening. The thought, reasonable or proportionate force comes to mind.

I see we are still trying to push the killing someone for stealing or some other trivial line. Plain execution is not allowed in the states or anywhere else (western). Deadly force is allowed in some places where fear of life is reasonably expected.

The lawyers argue out the technicalities, but its simple really, if your a bad guy and get sprung, you have a choice, escalate or deescalate.

I have no sympathy for some piece of human garbage who gets sprung stealing something trivial, and decides to escalate it into a violent confrontation to escape, and gets killed in the process.

chuks 29th Aug 2015 14:03

Oh, really?
"[T]he problem for us who are not American, is the constant and unrelentless export of American culture to every far corner of this planet. It is a 24/7/365 assault upon us, from every angle."

Oh, come on! What is this, like that poor chap in A Clockwork Orange, to be pinned in place with your eyelids held open? There are alternatives to looking at TV and movies and listening to rap music, you know! I assume that you have libraries with books that are quite free of American culture, or even ones offering a positive sort of American culture. Try Moby-Dick, why don't you? That should get your mind off CIS Miami for a good long spell, especially if you are one of those who moves his lips when he reads.

It's not as if there's no alternative to watching "gangsta" films, listening to rap, and eating at McDonald's, is it? You could watch classic film noir, listen to Charles Ives, and eat Cajun food, for example, when those are also representative of American culture.

It's the same with owning a gun actually. In Vermont you are quite free to own and carry one, but it's clearly understood that using one to maim or kill someone for no good reason is not allowed. It's not as though having access to American gun culture means going to its low end; you do have a choice. (That "c" word, "choice," is one that so many liberals find so troublesome, the notion that we have such a terrible mixture of freedom and responsibility, nobody there to tell us what to do and then make us do that.)

I am not speaking here of just shooting people out of hand. That's not even allowed in the USA! I think that your nice Mr Johnson might well be disposed to listen to the idea of putting proper legislation in place; then posting warning signs in all the languages spoken in the East End, big signs warning of the consequences of behaving like a chav or yob or gangsta or whatever it's called; and finally allowing only registered shooters to operate.

You already use this on other feral pests, for heaven's sake! Which would you rather encounter at midnight on Mile End Road, a yob or a fox?

Don't blame me for this idea; I got it from a Brit, Jeremy Bentham, with his "utilitarianism," the "greatest good for the greatest number."

Okay, it might be a bit of a mess to start with, for the first few days or perhaps weeks, but then I think things should settle down to a long, yobless spell before another cull became necessary, so back to shooting foxes for a while.

Mr Chips 29th Aug 2015 14:13

These pointless gun threads give more of an insight into the kinds of the anti gun posters than anything else.

Bcgallagher, two things
1. You post about gun deaths per day, then get uppity when someone points out your mistake.
2. Stop taking throw away comments about shooting chavs so literally. You need to either develop a sense of humour or stop using these obviously flippant comments as evidence in your crusade.

Stanwell 29th Aug 2015 14:15

OK then. Just be sure you have plenty of credible witnesses on hand - prepared to testify on your behalf.
Good luck.

ps I'm not talking about a country town, where everybody (including the local copper) knows everything about everybody.

bcgallacher 29th Aug 2015 14:26

Mr Chips - He knew what I meant but was trying to score points without a rational argument. as far as sense of humour is concerned mine flags a little with regards to thousands of unnecessary gunshot deaths. I do not know if you have been shot at or have seen the result of a gunshot to the head - I have been shot at and have seen the result of a gunshot to the head - neither of these things cased me much amusement.

rh200 29th Aug 2015 14:37

OK then. Just be sure you have plenty of credible witnesses on hand - prepared to testify on your behalf.
Good luck.
Its a problem. Jurisdictions have put in various means to try and balance the side effects. The problem is do you make the law favoring the original perceived victim, or the other way.

Another words are you prepared to have more innocent people suffer to guard against being harsh to the crim or the accidental punishment of some innocent person in the wrong place at the wrong time.

When you put laws in place theres always consequences, the key is the long term benefits should outweigh some of the collateral damage.

The stand your ground law is an interesting case in point along those lines.

chuks 29th Aug 2015 14:51

Dear Mr Gallacher,

I read and then quoted exactly what you wrote, rather than trying to guess at what you meant. Is that being terribly unfair, simply quoting what you wrote?

If you had bothered to look it up, by the way, you might learn that over three times as many, 156, US police officers died from being shot in the line of duty in 2014.

I too have been shot at. That was not being shot at by a jealous boyfriend, for example, but merely being shot at by a rather disorderly group of strangers, people I had not even been properly introduced to.

My assailants seemed to be armed robbers who fell prey to a lucky, for me, combination of poor impulse control and poor aim, so that they missed me after opening up at close range. (That was in a country with extremely strict gun control laws, by the way.) There was no particular emotional background to this, such as a failed love affair, so that I soon got over being shot at, particularly since I was not hit.

It's true that I failed to take the personal aspect of a gun attack into consideration, when your gun attack may well have been much more traumatic than mine. Please accept my condolences.



bcgallacher 29th Aug 2015 20:04

chucks - you seem to have little knowledge of US police deaths on duty. According to a report released last week from the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund in 2014 there was a total deaths on duty of 126 police officers, 50 by gunshot - a rise from 32 in 2013.

rh200 29th Aug 2015 22:03

Fund in 2014 there was a total deaths on duty of 126 police officers, 50 by gunshot - a rise from 32 in 2013.
And another

This is all to be expected when the current political establishment and their huggy fluffie foot soldiers took the stance it did.

vapilot2004 29th Aug 2015 22:10

This thread has a few valid points on both sides. It is true, the murder rate in the US has been higher than many developed nations, however the current rate has returned to 1960's levels - nearly half - after peaking in the early 90s.

Urban poverty, gang violence, and the failed war on drugs are among the primary causes of violent crime in the states. This violence is facilitated by the flood of cheap handguns that began in the late 1970s and continued unchecked to the present.

Gang related homicides range from 5% in rural areas to over 66% in large cities. The failed war on drugs is one of the primary factors in the proliferation of gang membership and activity.

While pondering that sobering data, have a gander at this statistical map of world murder rates:



chuks 29th Aug 2015 22:33

My mistake ....
I misread that report on police deaths. Yes, it was 50 gun-related deaths, and three times as many total deaths. It was 156 police deaths by gunfire back in 1973, and it has declined since then.

Actually, Mr. Gallacher, I had no idea at all of the total number of deaths until you brought that up, along with wanting to tell us that the rest of the world looks on with bemusement at the USA because of this, among other things.

You certainly do have your finger on the pulse, knowing how the rest of the world (all of it, or just the parts you personally know about, as in not very many?) views the USA! Or, you are just off-gassing a bit there, using the number of police dead by gunfire to buttress a statement that is unsupportable?

Guns are bad and America is weird for allowing its citizens to have so many of them? Is that what you are trying to say? Okay, if you say so ....

Zapatas Blood 30th Aug 2015 17:17

Americans are going to need their guns. the coming collapse of the petrodollar is going to destroy the US economy.

Preparing for the Collapse of the Petrodollar System

chuks 30th Aug 2015 17:30

Five paragraphs in and we can read ...
"If you have never heard of the petrodollar system, it will not surprise me. It is certainly not a topic that makes it's way out of Washington and Wall Street circles too often."

This guy doesn't even know that it's not "it's way out of ... " but "its way out of ... " yet Jerry Robinson's some kind of know-all when it comes to the complicated workings of whatever it is he is going to tell me all about? I do not think so!

A "petro dollar" is an ordinary dollar paid to a producer of crude oil, so that it's just a dollar, right? Where does the excitement come in? Me, I'm okay; I have lots of cowrie shells saved up from my time in West Africa, so whatever trouble this ignorant prophet is predicting, "Bring it on!" say I.

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